Is Church Tithing an Abomination to God, or Unbiblical?

[Simon]

Is Church Tithing an Abomination to God, or Unbiblical?

Tithing, as practiced by Christians, has no Biblical foundation; there's no support for giving 10% of your income to the church. The Bible's primary guidance is that we look after the poor.

Church tithes go here (approximately):
50% Staff salaries
30% Building
10% Missionary (salaries)
0.05% Direct help for the poor (if they're lucky)

Once you understand this, you may well find yourself asking:
Does God despise the church tithe?

Thoughts?

 

[Hekuran]

A couple of thoughts:

You have two issues put together here. The first is the way that your church describes the way it collects money from its members. And the second is the way the church funds are distributed.

My guess (and experience) is that you are likely to get more traction with asking about how the funds are distributed. Your church has a building and people on the payroll, so it has to collect funds from somewhere.

If you are a regular giver, your church should be accountable for the way its resources. There should be at least an annual meeting in which accounts are presented. My suggested question would be along the lines of "What does the church budget say about our priorities?"

It's good to talk to your church leader or treasurer beforehand, so your question does not come out of the blue.

If you church cannot be accountable, explain - politely - why you are choosing to give in other areas than your local church.

My experience of the tithing debate is that it goes in a large and loopy circle, everybody gets a bit confused, some people get a bit upset and no decisions are made.

 

[JesusGivesLifeMeaning]

It is an O.T practice, referred to in quite a few places; Abraham tithed to Melchizedek...Jacob tithed. Most modern churches seem to follow this Old Testament concept (in my view, incorrectly). Maybe it would be more appropriate if the present day church would stop beating up folks with O.T. verses, sowing seeds, which do not seem to be in line, rather concentrate on the "offerings" practice, as Paul outlined in several places in the N.T. This can be a hotly contested topic, I've seen several forum discussions get quite heated over this on the net.

 

[Brad Huber]

Is Church Tithing an Abomination to God, or Unbiblical?

Tithing, as practiced by Christians, has no Biblical foundation; there's no support for giving 10% of your income to the church. The Bible's primary guidance is that we look after the poor.

Church tithes go here (approximately):
50% Staff salaries
30% Building
10% Missionary (salaries)
0.05% Direct help for the poor (if they're lucky)

Once you understand this, you may well find yourself asking:
Does God despise the church tithe?

Thoughts?

It depends. If its a small church, perhaps 50% for staff is needed to make up for less monies being collected. Any full time pastor with a wife and kids, needs a decent salary which can be different depending on the cost of living in the area. Is there a parsonage where the pastor can live rent free? If these other staff are not full time, does it reflect properly on their hours versus pay received? Just using a percent says little about the actual situation. Same with the building expense. If there is a loan outstanding to pay off the facility in use, it is important that churchs get out of debt as quickly as possible. Too little information to make a good judgement.

 

[Simon]

A couple of thoughts:...

Your church has a building and people on the payroll, so it has to collect funds from somewhere...

Hekuran,

And this is probably why churches routinely distort the Biblical tithe!

peace,
Simon

 

[Simon]

It is an O.T practice, referred to in quite a few places; Abraham tithed to Melchizedek...Jacob tithed. Most modern churches seem to follow this Old Testament concept (in my view, incorrectly). Maybe it would be more appropriate if the present day church would stop beating up folks with O.T. verses, sowing seeds, which do not seem to be in line, rather concentrate on the "offerings" practice, as Paul outlined in several places in the N.T. This can be a hotly contested topic, I've seen several forum discussions get quite heated over this on the net.

Not just in your in your view, isn't it also followed incorrectly from the Biblical view, from God's view?

The Bible only records that Abraham tithed one time in his whole life.
Abraham did not tithe on his income, or his assets, he only gave 10% of the profits of a single battle.
And he gave the other 90% of the spoils of that battle to a pagan king!

Jacob promised to give a conditional tithe, but only if God blessed him first and returned him to his family.
Many say there's no clear record of him keeping this promise, but I believe when he gave livestock to his brother, that was his only recorded tithe.

Yes, we should concentrate on offerings, but offerings to whom?
The scripture's emphasis is on the poor, the church emphasis is often that they are entitled to the tithe.

Simon

 

[Simon]

It depends. If its a small church, perhaps 50% for staff is needed to make up for less monies being collected. Any full time pastor with a wife and kids, needs a decent salary which can be different depending on the cost of living in the area. Is there a parsonage where the pastor can live rent free? If these other staff are not full time, does it reflect properly on their hours versus pay received? Just using a percent says little about the actual situation. Same with the building expense. If there is a loan outstanding to pay off the facility in use, it is important that churchs get out of debt as quickly as possible. Too little information to make a good judgement.

Brad,

Your concern for the church, debt, and pastors income sounds a bit (sorry, but) indoctrinated.
Does God want Christians to give 10% of their income to a church mortgage (bank), and a full-time staff of people?
There's no precedent for this, except the Catholic church that our Protestant forebears criticised so harshly and left, and then continued to repeat the same error...


Simon

 

[B-A-C]

I think it's interesting Jesus said to give to Caesar what is Caesars... but He also said give God what is Gods.
(Matt 22:21; )
So apparently we are supposed to give something to God. The context here was money, in fact Jesus asked
to be shown a denarius. I'm not sure this is really just an "old testament" thing.

In the passage about the widow and the mite ( Mark 12:41-44; Luke 21:1-4; ) Jesus commended the widow
for giving all she had, even if it was just a little. He praised this above those who had plenty and gave out of
their abundance.

Of course the Pharisees in the new testament also tithed. ( Matt 23:23; Luke 11:42; )
Jesus commends them for giving here, but condemns them for not giving justice, mercy and faithfulness.
In Matt 23:23; Jesus says "these are the things you should have done, without neglecting the other things".
So Jesus makes it sound like.. tithing is what "you should have done". (Luke 11:42; also)

In Luke 18:12; The "proud" Pharisee says he tithes here. The condemnation for him wasn't that he tithed.
It was that he was proud and "exalted himself".

Of course in Hebrews 7 (which is in the new testament) it mentions Abraham and Levi. (Hebrews 7:8-9; )
while Levi must have received tithes (Heb 7:9; ) in the OT times, it is still mentioned in the NT.

There isn't specifically a verse that says "you must give tithes" in the new testament. Maybe Matt 22:21; and Matt 23:23; are
as close as it gets. But on the other hand, there is no verse in the new testament that specifically says "do not tithe under
any circumstances" either.

 

[Simon]

I think it's interesting Jesus said to give to Caesar what is Caesars... but He also said give God what is Gods.
(Matt 22:21; )
So apparently we are supposed to give something to God. The context here was money, in fact Jesus asked
to be shown a denarius. I'm not sure this is really just an "old testament" thing.

In the passage about the widow and the mite ( Mark 12:41-44; Luke 21:1-4; ) Jesus commended the widow
for giving all she had, even if it was just a little. He praised this above those who had plenty and gave out of
their abundance.

Of course the Pharisees in the new testament also tithed. ( Matt 23:23; Luke 11:42; )...

B-A-C

You argument about Caesar suggests that God wants the same as Caesar!
I thought most Christians understood this scripture to mean that Caesar wants your money; but God wants your love, your justice, your mercy, your care and forgiveness for others...

The story of the widow illustrates that God looks at what a gift costs us, to read much more into this - like it supports tithing money to a church - is speculation at best.
I wonder if the widow's coin was one of the coins that ended up on the ground when Jesus overturned the tables in the Temple and scattered the money saying:
"Stop turning my Father's house into a market!"

The Pharisee in question did tithe, if he tithed correctly according to the law, he did NOT tithe any money.
It was forbidden to tithe money (with one specific exception, but the money had to be changed back to livestock/crops before it was paid).
Tithing was only if you had more than 10 livestock born, or if you had reaped a crop.
Fisherman did not tithe.
Stonemasons did not tithe.
Soldiers did not tithe.
Shepherds did not tithe, unless they owned the flock and had more than 10 sheep born.
Farm workers did not tithe, but farmers did.
Carpenters did not tithe.

Why did the Pharisees tithe?
The Pharisee was probably a Levite, as many were, and Levites were required to give a tenth of the tithe given them, to the temple.
Only Levites tithed flocks and crops to the Temple.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."

Notice: What did Jesus say they tithed? Their herbs. These legalists tithed correctly, they gave of the increase of the only tithe due, the only crop they reaped, their herb garden!

peace,
Simon

 

[Brad Huber]

Brad,

Your concern for the church, debt, and pastors income sounds a bit (sorry, but) indoctrinated.
Does God want Christians to give 10% of their income to a church mortgage (bank), and a full-time staff of people?
There's no precedent for this, except the Catholic church that our Protestant forebears criticised so harshly and left, and then continued to repeat the same error...


Simon

Please, spare me saying you are sorry, when you aren't at all. Perhaps you should start your own perfect church without any problems at all ever.

 

[Simon]

Please, spare me saying you are sorry, when you aren't at all. Perhaps you should start your own perfect church without any problems at all ever.

Brad,

My goal is not to make the Church perfect, only Christ will accomplish that.
Instead, like Martin Luther, I'm attempting to point out an error in the church, with the hope of repentance...

God Bless,
Simon

 

[Brad Huber]

Brad,

My goal is not to make the Church perfect, only Christ will accomplish that.
Instead, like Martin Luther, I'm attempting to point out an error in the church, with the hope of repentance...

God Bless,
Simon

I get so tired of people looking for and pointing out faults, and causing division, WHEN NOT DIRECTED to do so by the Holy Spirit, those people have created the sorry state the earthly church is in today. Have you spoken to the pastor or elders about your concerns, adamant about your concerns being valid, showing scripture to back up everything, and listening to their reasoning instead of turning a blind eye and ear their way? If not, I have zero sympathy for you, if so, then leave that earthly church.

 

[JesusGivesLifeMeaning]

Simon,

I do feel your question is valid, and also that your heart is in the right place in this. I see many pastors driving Lincons/Cadillac/Lexus, etc.,wearing $1200 suits, living lavish lifestyles, and I suppose that is a good testament for prosperity theology (don't want to go down that road & open another can of worms.)

Many churches today have quite elaborate theaters, sound systems, employ a large staff/payroll and so forth, while many homeless are starving in their very own cities. This is a sore spot for me as well. I don't feel I should be coerced into following an incorrect Biblical principle that is not set for the modern day church.

I have often pondered, and still do, why some things are not more clear in the word, that we must try to reason these things out and it ends up causing division among the saints. I gave up a position on the board once because almost every meeting was a heated argument session over this thing or that, while homeless were starving, sinners perishing, while all of us comfortable righteous were squabbling. I know this does not apply to all places of worship, I'm not broad-brushing...just food for thought.

Back to your original post -

"Church tithes go here (approximately):
50% Staff salaries
30% Building
10% Missionary (salaries)
0.05% Direct help for the poor (if they're lucky)"

Yeah, I'm not on board with that.

In my understanding, modern day giving is supposed to be "offering based" from our heart as we are led, not a "tithe" commandment.

 

[Simon]

I get so tired of people looking for and pointing out faults...

Brad,
If you believe people should not points out faults, then people are no doubt wondering why you would attempt to point out my faults?
Or is it only a rule for other people...


Simon

 

[Simon]

I have often pondered, and still do, why some things are not more clear in the word, that we must try to reason these things out and it ends up causing division among the saints.

My theory on this, in a nutshell, is that God is not trying to save the whole world. He could of course reveal Himself to everyone in an instant, and one day He will!
Instead He chooses to talk in parables, so that only some may grasp the truth, and He desires faith more than reason.
Division is not always bad, it's another way that God can determine who has His approval, and are we not glad to be separated from the Roman Catholics etc....

Thank you for your kind words, and for sharing your experience.

 

[Brad Huber]

Brad,
If you believe people should not points out faults, then people are no doubt wondering why you would attempt to point out my faults?
Or is it only a rule for other people...


Simon

I note that you truncated my sentence, as you have no clue as to the use of the Holy Spirit. I leave you to those who care about your whining.

 

[Simon]

I note that you truncated my sentence, as you have no clue as to the use of the Holy Spirit. I leave you to those who care about your whining.

Yes, I did that deliberately, because the rest of the sentence was almost as meaningless as criticising someone for being critical.
You likely think that someone who disagrees with you is not led of the Holy Spirit, I think the Holy Spirit will speak through whom He will, and that is often difficult to discern.

Go in peace,
Simon

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

May I refresh some of you? Do we also forget the weightier matters while attempting to stone others for non-agreement?
If modern day 'tithing' has its equivalent in love offering, surely that same love should be offered to one another in all matters, not neglecting the lesser matters?

Did God say "peace"? If not, an abomination has emerged. If so, then it will stand.

Please don't fight and bite and devour one another, especially while looking into the treasuries of the LORD.

Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

My theory on this, in a nutshell, is that God is not trying to save the whole world.

while you offer some wholesome study regarding who tithed and how, you stray somewhat here @Simon .
Isn't it a wonderful blessing to us that while our understanding and theories can miss the truth, the LORD can be trusted to lead us as we acknowledge Him.

Tithing may have been once for only some, according to the Law and possibly a holy or sanctified duty but we note the curtain was rent or torn and we all may enter in, bringing offerings to the LORD.
Compulsory tithing for wage earners perhaps was never expected nor accepted so now none should be compelled or convinced that they should.

Bless you ....><>

 

[Bendito]

Tithing in the New Covenant does seem to be a thing not necessary...However......The principle involved in tithing.....Its not obligatory but can you afford not to tithe? Tithing does open the door to financial blessing and other types of blessing too...The first tenth still belongs to God...