Is Ephesians 5:22-33 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord." outdated?

[loveandsonship]

When you are forgotten, rejected and purposely set at naught, and you don't sting and hurt with the insult or the oversight, but your heart is happy and you count it worthy to suffer for Christ -- That is dying to self!

When your good is evil spoken of, when your wishes are crossed, your advice disregarded, your opinions ridiculed, and you refuse to let anger rise in your heart of even defend yourself, but take it all in patient loving silence -- That is dying to self!

When you lovingly and patiently bear any disorder, any irregularity, and annoyance, when you can stand face to face with waste, folly, extravagance, spiritual insensibility and endure it as Jesus did-- That is dying to self!

When you are content with any food, any offering , any raiment, any climate, any society, any fallacy, any interruption by the will of God -- That is dying to self!

When you never care to be referred to yourself in conversation or record your own good works, or if after commendation when you can truly love to be unknown---That is dying to self !

When you can see your brother prosper, and have his needs met, and can honestly rejoice with him in spirit and feel no envy or questions God while your own needs are far greater and you are in desperate circumstances --- that is dying to self !

When you can receive correction and reproof from one of less stature than yourself and can humbly submit inwardly as well as outwardly, finding no rebellion or resentment rising up within your heart -- that is dying to self!

Well-received. I little.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Amen. Yet we fall short and err as husbands, and are not quite Christ. Christ subjects the church, not any of his members, until I, become subject. Perfect obedience comes tomorrow. Then my wife submits because I've died. Our cleaving is perfect, the church is brought into perfect unity. Tomorrow. So long as I entertain sometimes vain conversation, my wife ought submit in all things heavenly.

I think it's James that gives the order of house when the husband shames his own head, Christ. Then the wife holds order.

I think whilst discussing the husband wife situation it is worth adding the following.

1 Corinthians 7:1-14 (NKJV)
1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
5 Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
6 But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment.
7 For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that.
8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am;
9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband.
11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her.
13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him.
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.

It is worth reading to the end verse 40.

Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings

Looking at the spiritual side of the husband, wife, family situations.

The man is the spiritual head of the family, unless he is the none believer.

If the wife is saved and the husband is not saved, she can claim the spiritual head of the family until he accepts Christ.

The saved husband can claim salvation for all the family, claim it for them according to his position in the family, they still have to accept Jesus, when they do it is time to rejoice and give thanks for their salvation and for answered prayer.

The saved wife, with a lost husband has the same right, to claim their salvation, but only if the husband is not saved.

The correct and ideal formula is God's will, that both husband and wife are saved, they come together in agreement for salvation for their children.

Bless you

 

[Senior Pastor]

I know where this is going and when it does I'm done here. "Wives submit to your husband's in all things.". You "men," always do it by the letter don't you. You ought to do it by the letter, and had better start doing it by the heart. You men of the world are civilian, and your wives should submit to you in civilian affairs. Ours submit in heavenly, we died.

Jesus was a MAN. ALL knees shall bow to Jesus Christ in that day so good luck with that thinking.

 

[Sue D.]

Jesus was here as God incarnate. Jesus Christ the Son of God. And all knees Will bow and acknowledge God Almighty. Those who deny that God exists Will acknowledge His existence.

 

[sweetcake]

Jesus was here as God incarnate. Jesus Christ the Son of God. And all knees Will bow and acknowledge God Almighty. Those who deny that God exists Will acknowledge His existence.

GOD the "Father" and yes Jesus was GOD incarnate in the form of a man. As you stated Jesus was the "SON" man/male of GOD.

 

[Trevor]

Please understand that it is not my intention nor desire to demean those who believe women should not have to wear a veil during prayer while in corporate worship, in any way. I am aware that many who believe this doctrine may be better Christians than I am in many ways.

Yet, if I were to say to you that half a chapter of Holy Scripture was “incidental” what would you think? By what authority would I have to dismiss half a chapter of the Word of God?

Why is 1 Corinthians 11 1-16 important to us today? Why is it so commonly ignored by the Churches and not followed by the majority of today’s Christian women?

In 1 Corinthians 1:1-3 we read: Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God. That is a very impressive credential in his opening statement and all scripture he writes should be considered authoritative. Yet, many are quick to dismiss the first 16 verses of 1 Corinthians a half a chapter of Holy Scripture as either incidental or ignored altogether.

Let me first say that we live at a time when it is unpopular to confront others for immoral or improper actions and words. The popular belief of today is that everyone should be able to do their own thing, and others have no right to “judge” or correct them. What a mess this idea has created in our society and in our churches.

Sadly, many Christians have embraced this complacent attitude toward correcting others, and, as a result, sin and false doctrine in the church are seldom confronted and curbed.

However, the Bible tells us that:

2 Tim. 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Tim. 4:1-2
1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage — with great patience and careful instruction.

God tells us that His Word is not only to be used to teach and encourage but also to “correct” and “rebuke.” And in 2 Timothy 4: 3, He tells us why we must be faithful to use His Word to correct others who are in the wrong:

2 Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

This prophetic writing began its fulfillment shortly after it was penned and has escalated to what is happening in churches today. There are presently a great number of teachers willing to say what itching ears want to hear, instead of telling the truth as revealed in God’s Word.

However, many who embrace certain views about doctrine inevitably end up altering the clear meaning of passages that contradict what they believe. And as a result, they pass their tainted understanding of the Scriptures on to those they share with. Sadly, this in turn distorts other people’s knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word. Why does it matter? Because this is very serious. That is why God urges us to contend for the faith:

Phil. 1:27 Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in one spirit, contending as one man for the faith of the gospel…

Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Below we come to the periscope in question. Let us read it plainly as it is written.

1 Corinthians 11:1-16 (KJV)
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.



Two points seem to be the most significant:
(1) No word for veil occurs in vv 2-14. Thus, that the hair is regarded by Paul as a veil in v 15 is not necessarily an argument that the hair is the same as the head covering that he is describing in these verses.
(2) Throughout this periscope, Paul points out the similarities of long hair with a head covering. But his doing so strongly suggests that the two are not to be identified. Precisely because they are similar, they are not identical. Note the following verses.

11:5-- “but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved.”
11:6-- “For if a woman will not cover herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should keep it covered.
11:7-- “For a man ought not to cover his head . . .”
11:10-- “For this reason a woman ought to have [a symbol of] authority on her head”
11:13-- “Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?”
11:15-- “but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory . . .”

Several points can be made here.
(1) If ‘covering’ = ‘hair,’ then all men should shave their heads or go bald because the men are to have their heads uncovered.
(2) If ‘covering’ = ‘long hair,’ then v 6 seems to suggest a tautology: “if a woman will not wear long hair, then she should cut off her hair.” But this in no way advances the argument.
(3) The argument caves in by its own subtlety. To see ‘hair’ = ‘head covering’ means that one has to go through several exegetical hoops. In short, it hardly appears to be the plain meaning of the text.
(4) Verses 10 and 15 would have to be saying the same thing if long hair is the same as a head covering. But this can hardly be the case. In v 10, a woman is required to wear a ‘symbol of authority.’ Such a symbol represents her submission, not her glory.

To argue, then, that long hair is the woman’s head covering seems to miss the very point of the function of the head covering and of the long hair: one shows her submission while the other shows her glory. Both of these are contrasted with an uncovered head while praying or prophesying, or a shaved head at any time: such would speak of the woman’s humiliation and shame.

So why is any of this important? Why does any of this really matter? It’s all about being in proper fellowship with the Lord! If you are a woman reading this, I strongly urge you to prayerfully seek out the Lord’s guidance. Perhaps you have been attending church for years and this is the first time this has been brought up to you? Given our post-feminist society, most Pastors will steer well clear of such passages to avoid conflict.

Hi Pastor, I am the patriarch of my family, whenever any of my family need spiritual advice, they come to me. My wife handles the family purse. (she is better at it than me), when she handles the money, the bills get paid. If I disagree with her she follows my leading and comes under my authority. If she questions my actions, I often go along with her wisdom, because she would not question me without a great deal of thought. When the phone rings and I answer it, if it is one of our children, they will inevitably ask for my wife because she deals with family matters, If I disagree, she will back me. In our family we both receive respect. We have been together for over fifty years and have a joyful home.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi Pastor, I am the patriarch of my family, whenever any of my family need spiritual advice, they come to me. My wife handles the family purse. (she is better at it than me), when she handles the money, the bills get paid. If I disagree with her she follows my leading and comes under my authority. If she questions my actions, I often go along with her wisdom, because she would not question me without a great deal of thought. When the phone rings and I answer it, if it is one of our children, they will inevitably ask for my wife because she deals with family matters, If I disagree, she will back me. In our family we both receive respect. We have been together for over fifty years and have a joyful home.

Greeting brother,

A marriage build on a good foundation, with principles laid down by God. We know our position in the family but share responsibilities based on our love for one another and our talents given to us by God.

Most marriages nowadays are try before you buy and they always end up paying for it in the end, or a women says from the start I will not say 'I obey' their foundations are on sand and are ready to crumble before they begin.

May the good Lord continue to Bless each of you, today and all the days of your lives.

Jesus loves you my friend, we do too.

 

[Sue D.]

A comment or two -- one regarding the 1 Corinthians 11 passage that 'Senior Pastor" , previously, had 'landed on' -- he and I had some conversation about that a while back. The point of that passage was that IF a woman was going to pray in public -- a church service or prophesy in a service to have her head covered. If she did those things with an Uncovered head -- it was disgracing her head.. Then the question came up as to what constituted a head covering. Was her hair an adequate covering or was a veil needed. Hence, the 'head-covering' movement. Senior Pastor felt that pastors tended to ignore that passage --but that is of utmost importance To teach. Well -- there Are those who tend to 'land' on a particular passage of Scripture and Stay there.

Kind of surprised that Trevor brought that up, but I'm glad he did. Men and women get together because they felt led in that direction. They work well together along with their kids.

The length of hair 'thing' the entire time that my future husband and I were dating, I wore my hair short. He never said a thing. We got married and in Bible College and ministry -- my hair ended up growing out longer. A long shag. I wore it up most of the time due to a kitchen job in the local Bible college. Otherwise I wore it pulled back with a clip so that it was short around my face. I looked much better with it that way. As soon as I saw that older Christian women were wearing shorter hair, I got mine cut. My husband liked it longer but a brother-in-law said why not just clip it off where the clip was. After that , my husband jokingly referred to it as looking like a 'plucked chicken' -- well -- I felt better with the shorter hair.
AFter that I Did try letting it grow out a couple of times. Just didn't work. I couldn't stand feeling hair on the back of my neck. And I looked better -- yes -- more feminine with a much shorter hair style.

My older sister was a pastor and then a missionary's wife. One of the 'things' back then was for the wive to have longer hair -- so she did-- but she wore it up on top of her head all the time. She felt better that way and with all her responsibilities -- it was up and out of the way. As soon as they were out of the mission field, she got it cut -- a nice, feminine short style. And she never did wear any head covering.

Their objective was to win souls to Christ. Their field was Brazil, S. A. They were extremely busy for years. If she/ they were missing some blessing from God --because of lack of consciously teaching that passage / wearing a head covering -- well -- they were realizing Lots of blessings from their ministry.

The idea that women start out their marriages with an attitude of 'Not obeying their husbands' is Not realistic at all. Kind of a low opinion of marriage these days.

 

[Reba1]

Eph_5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Is my husband my head ? awaiting a covering?

 

[Sue D.]

I'm single once again after 46 yrs. -- I don't pray in public or prophesy -- so according to Scripture I don't need a head-covering.

I wouldn't mind having another Christian man enter my life. Wear a head - covering, not likely. I won't be going to a church that man-dates that.

 

[B-A-C]

The idea that women start out their marriages with an attitude of 'Not obeying their husbands' is Not realistic at all. Kind of a low opinion of marriage these days.

I wouldn't mind having another Christian man enter my life. Wear a head - covering, not likely. I won't be going to a church that man-dates that.

In your opinion, what is the difference between a husband that wants this, and a church that wants this?

If I re-wrote your first sentence.. and changed one word.. would it still apply?

The idea that women start out their [church-going] with an attitude of 'Not obeying their [church]' is Not realistic at all. Kind of a low opinion of [church] these days.

If I re-wrote the second sentence.. would it still apply?

I wouldn't mind having another Christian man enter my life. Wear a head - covering, not likely. I won't be [marrying a man] that man-dates that.

1Cor 11:5; But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.
1Cor 11:6; For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.
1Cor 11:7; For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
1Cor 11:8; For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
1Cor 11:9; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake.
1Cor 11:10; Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

Now lets take your second sentence again.

Wear a head - covering, not likely. I won't be [obeying a God] that man-dates that.

...which is probably not what you meant, but it's the way it comes across.

A lot of (divorced/widowed/single) women say they want a "godly" man. But they usually mean "not-so-godly that he quotes scripture to me".

 

[Trevor]

A comment or two -- one regarding the 1 Corinthians 11 passage that 'Senior Pastor" , previously, had 'landed on' -- he and I had some conversation about that a while back. The point of that passage was that IF a woman was going to pray in public -- a church service or prophesy in a service to have her head covered. If she did those things with an Uncovered head -- it was disgracing her head.. Then the question came up as to what constituted a head covering. Was her hair an adequate covering or was a veil needed. Hence, the 'head-covering' movement. Senior Pastor felt that pastors tended to ignore that passage --but that is of utmost importance To teach. Well -- there Are those who tend to 'land' on a particular passage of Scripture and Stay there.

Kind of surprised that Trevor brought that up, but I'm glad he did. Men and women get together because they felt led in that direction. They work well together along with their kids.

The length of hair 'thing' the entire time that my future husband and I were dating, I wore my hair short. He never said a thing. We got married and in Bible College and ministry -- my hair ended up growing out longer. A long shag. I wore it up most of the time due to a kitchen job in the local Bible college. Otherwise I wore it pulled back with a clip so that it was short around my face. I looked much better with it that way. As soon as I saw that older Christian women were wearing shorter hair, I got mine cut. My husband liked it longer but a brother-in-law said why not just clip it off where the clip was. After that , my husband jokingly referred to it as looking like a 'plucked chicken' -- well -- I felt better with the shorter hair.
AFter that I Did try letting it grow out a couple of times. Just didn't work. I couldn't stand feeling hair on the back of my neck. And I looked better -- yes -- more feminine with a much shorter hair style.

My older sister was a pastor and then a missionary's wife. One of the 'things' back then was for the wive to have longer hair -- so she did-- but she wore it up on top of her head all the time. She felt better that way and with all her responsibilities -- it was up and out of the way. As soon as they were out of the mission field, she got it cut -- a nice, feminine short style. And she never did wear any head covering.

Their objective was to win souls to Christ. Their field was Brazil, S. A. They were extremely busy for years. If she/ they were missing some blessing from God --because of lack of consciously teaching that passage / wearing a head covering -- well -- they were realizing Lots of blessings from their ministry.

The idea that women start out their marriages with an attitude of 'Not obeying their husbands' is Not realistic at all. Kind of a low opinion of marriage these days.

1 Corinthians 11:13-16. "Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice -- nor do the churches of God."
I believe that to honour God can only bring blessing. Bless you. Trevor.

 

[Sue D.]

I Should be obeying God's Word -- and Watchful as to what a church / pastor is teaching.

What I Am 'suggesting' is that sometimes a pastor will 'land' on a passage in Scripture and Stay there. The congregation has been with him for years and following his guidance. He teaches Bible so no one questions him. After all, it Is in KJV so it / he Can't be wrong.

And I Think I'm going to be even More hesitant about head coverings Because Muslim women wear their head coverings. It's very distinctive. The fashion world is trying to make it an attractive accessory.

There's only one church during my adult life that has a woman now and then who Does wear a hat to church. But it's not in the form of a shawl . It's a hat. Pastor has never preached on that. Plenty of other Bible To teach. / Salvation being the most important.

 

[Sue D.]

The passage is about women wearing a head covering while praying / prophesying. I don't pray in public or prophesy. And no church that I've gone to has had a woman praying in public or anything else. It's always a man praying.

 

[B-A-C]

Men are often the same. Some men wear hats in church. Some men wear hats when they pray. There has probably been a time or two when I forgot to remove mine, but I try to.
As a rule, I generally don't wear hats to church.

And I Think I'm going to be even More hesitant about head coverings Because Muslim women wear their head coverings. It's very distinctive. The fashion world is trying to make it an attractive accessory.

Agreed, but I feel there is a difference between a head "covering" (i.e. hat, scarf, etc..) and a face hiding "niqāb/hijab" that only shows the eyes.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I'm single once again after 46 yrs. -- I don't pray in public or prophesy -- so according to Scripture I don't need a head-covering.

I wouldn't mind having another Christian man enter my life. Wear a head - covering, not likely. I won't be going to a church that man-dates that.

Sue, you have just said, if a man requested you cover your head to pray you won't.

The passage is about women wearing a head covering while praying / prophesying. I don't pray in public or prophesy. And no church that I've gone to has had a woman praying in public or anything else. It's always a man praying.

If you are in a place of worship with other believers, you would be praying in public.

A lot of what you mention above seems like you were following the traditions of the people in the place of worship, not following your feeling in accordance with scripture.

I must add sister, I am saying these things in love.

Bless you

 

[Trevor]

I'm single once again after 46 yrs. -- I don't pray in public or prophesy -- so according to Scripture I don't need a head-covering.

I wouldn't mind having another Christian man enter my life. Wear a head - covering, not likely. I won't be going to a church that man-dates that.

The reason a woman wears long hair is the same reason a man wears theirs short. It's nothing to do with pleasing a partner. It's to please God. I'm a singer, singers generally wear their hair long, it's supposed to be cool. I'd rather be uncool, and please the one who rescued me. But each to his or her own bless you all. Trev.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The best thing we can wear Sue, is our heart where everyone can see it.

Nothing hidden, His love always showing to others, yet not for our benefit, but to bring Glory to God.

In His Love

Bless you

 

[Sue D.]

Sue, you have just said, if a man requested you cover your head to pray you won't.




If you are in a place of worship with other believers, you would be praying in public.

A lot of what you mention above seems like you were following the traditions of the people in the place of worship, not following your feeling in accordance with scripture.

I must add sister, I am saying these things in love.

Bless you

I'm saying that as a single woman, no man will be in a position to say to me one way or the other to cover my head no matter What I'm doing. My husband would be and I won't be going to a church that requires a woman To wear a prayer veil.

And Why would I be praying in public just because I'm in a place of worship with other believers. I don't pray out loud. I bow my head during corporate prayer led by a man. In fact -- I'll add This --in one of the churches that I Do go to -- pastor was encouraging prayer by anyone while we were praying as a body for a given situation. CAn't remember what it was presently. But there were a couple of women who stood and prayed on a given subject. Neither of them were wearing a prayer shawl. Neither of them had husbands who went to the church. And I bowed my head and listened silently while they prayed. I Did and always Do have the opportunity to pray silently while others are praying out loud.

Yes, I Do follow the traditions of the group I'm worshiping with. I'm part of that group. Probably the only thing I Don't follow along with is 'raising holy hands in praise' Because I've never felt led To do that. I'm a fairly passive worshiper.

You sound like you're suggesting that I'm somehow mildly rebellious?! Or maybe I'm going to the wrong church?! I Should be looking for a church who's pastor teaches the wearing of a prayer shawl? Well -- of the various churches that I've gone to over the past 5 yrs or so -- none of them have taught that passage. Probably because none of those churches had women who prayed or prophesied in public.