Is Ephesians 5:22-33 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord." outdated?

[PloughBoy]

(Matthew 19).

27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife e or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.


(Luke 14)
New King James Version
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

King James Bible
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[PloughBoy]

I was wondering, how come all of the 12 gates to the Heavenly city are name after men?
And all of the 12 foundations to the Heavenly city are name after men?

Any thoughts on that?

PS. And what about those 12 thrones. Or 24 elders, Just wondering. If any female names going be sitting up there?

 

[Sue D.]

Well -- Jacob / Israel did have 12 sons. The men were the head of the clans.

Back in that day -- women had No say in Anything. They were bought / sold all the time.

God Did institute marriage in the beginning. Adam and Eve and their children were the first family.

Women are to submit to their own husband - no one else.

 

[sweetcake]

I know where this is going and when it does I'm done here. "Wives submit to your husband's in all things.". You "men," always do it by the letter don't you. You ought to do it by the letter, and had better start doing it by the heart. You men of the world are civilian, and your wives should submit to you in civilian affairs. Ours submit in heavenly, we died.

I think feminism has done you and other women a great disservice.

 

[Sue D.]

Maybe instead of placing blame on 'feminism' -- maybe it's the world wars that took the men out to the battle field and the women were forced into the factories to take up the slack. They discovered they Could do some of the same work the men had been doing. The women who became widows had to earn a living Somehow.

I define feminism as the attitude that 'a woman can do anything a man can do." But just because a woman CAN do a man's work, doesn't mean she Should.

Lots of men Like to be a gentleman for women. I certainly do. And I think that being an 'older' woman brings out gentlemanliness in a man.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Marriage diverts our attention from the Lord and from working for the Lord, according to Paul. The husband leads that work. Submission has only to do with our primary task, that being kingdom work.

Greetings @loveandsonship

Re-read these scriptures please.

Ephesians 5:21-33 (NKJV)
21 Submitting to one another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

The rolls of husbands AND wives is clear
- husbands are to love their wives
- wives are to submit to their husbands.

But they are also to submit to one another. So although the wife is to submit to her husband, they are to submit to each other, if they are not pulling in the same direction they are pulling away from each other, this cannot be because the two become one flesh in marriage. v31

Christ was and is totally subjected to His Church, so wives are to totally submit to their husbands in everything v24

The husband is to love his wife as himself, the wife is to respect her husband v33

Respect, like love, is a two way thing,

I do hope this better explains your thoughts regarding 'submission' as a woman to her husband.

Blessings

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings, peace be with you,

I know where this is going and when it does I'm done here. "Wives submit to your husband's in all things.". You "men," always do it by the letter don't you. You ought to do it by the letter, and had better start doing it by the heart. You men of the world are civilian, and your wives should submit to you in civilian affairs. Ours submit in heavenly, we died.

Please read post #226 above.

I am a male, but I do not see this as two sides on a coin, but one side with two parts.

This seems to concern you if read out of context I can see why, allow me to continue please.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

Husbands have clear instructions also.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

and again more instructions to the husband

Eph 5:28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.

This is the part many do not understand, they are one flesh, they are to do everything together.

Eph 5:31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

They are to do things together, share responsibilities, and do so in love for one another. The man goes to work to supply for his wife and family, the woman raises the family and looks after the home, they are doing so as one body, when together they share their time together, they talk about things they do together and as a family, the husband and wife are one. When they agree and compromise their marriage is like a house built on a solid foundations, if they pull in opposite directions the relationship is on a bed of sand, it is destined for collapse.

Note therefore how this message started.

Eph 5:21 Submitting to one another in the fear of God.

Notice also the comparison of this marriage

Eph 5:3 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Eph 5:29-30
For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

If Jesus was to treat His Church, the ekklesia, the born again souls, like 'some men and some women' treat marriage, it would not survive. Not surprising therefore how many marriages actually fail.
- they fail because they do not see themselves as one body but separate individuals
- they fail because one or the other or both do not pull together
- they fail because the man thinks he is in charge but not as Christ describes
- they fail because the woman says, I will not obey, I will not say obey. If they cannot say that at the start of a marriage, on the most special day, they will not do so later.
- they fail because from the start they are pulling in the wrong direction.

Christ loves His Church, His bride, with an everlasting and unfailing love.
We, His bride (providing we are born again)
- we are to love Him as He loves us
- we are to submit to Him in love
- we are to obey Him in love.

That is all He asks of us
- Husbands are to love their wives, wives are to love their husbands
- Wives are to submit to their husbands in love
- Husbands are to love their wives as themselves
- Wives are to obey their husbands in love
- Both are to accept they have become one body, they are to pull together in love for one another, as for their own bodies
- Both are to love and not take the other for granted or for the situation to be abused in any way

Christ would never hurt, abuse, bad mouth or do or say anything to hurt her, His Bride. His wife.
The bride likewise should not hurt, abuse, bad mouth or do or say anything to hurt him, her groom. Her husband.

In His love

 

[Sue D.]

Very good explanation.

 

[Reba1]

What should wives do if the husband is not a Christian role model?
If he lacks Biblical standards except in public?

Obey the Word of God it is that simple .

 

[Reba1]

Probably... I think it's very likely. But again, that's another thread, another subject.
And even if the husbands are terrible husbands that don't love their wives very good, or lead the family at all...
wives are still supposed to respect and be subject to their husbands. Even if he isn't a Christian.

With the except of the word terrible the above is my marriage of 56+ years , John is not terrible ,

1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

For an understanding of Sara (Sarah) The story is in Genesis 20

 

[Reba1]

I wouldn't say Adam wimped out, he was tempted as we are tempted, he fell for it as we do too.

To me falling for the temptation and wimping out are the same . my use of language is simple

 

[sweetcake]

Obey the Word of God it is that simple .

Be a good Christian towards him that by your actions as a good Christian he may be won over to Christ.

 

[Reba1]

I know where this is going and when it does I'm done here. "Wives submit to your husband's in all things.". You "men," always do it by the letter don't you. You ought to do it by the letter, and had better start doing it by the heart. You men of the world are civilian, and your wives should submit to you in civilian affairs. Ours submit in heavenly, we died.

One who is dead to self would not speak so.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Very good explanation.

Thank you for your kind comments Sue.

Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

To me falling for the temptation and wimping out are the same . my use of language is simple

WIMP is not a word I would use @Reba1 as it is often used in name calling, for a weakling, someone not brave or not confident.

I would also not use the word because it is saying, Adam a weakling because he sinned, do we not sin, should we also call ourselves wimps?

Shalom

 

[Reba1]

I know where this is going and when it does I'm done here. "Wives submit to your husband's in all things.". You "men," always do it by the letter don't you. You ought to do it by the letter, and had better start doing it by the heart. You men of the world are civilian, and your wives should submit to you in civilian affairs. Ours submit in heavenly, we died.

When you are forgotten, rejected and purposely set at naught, and you don't sting and hurt with the insult or the oversight, but your heart is happy and you count it worthy to suffer for Christ -- That is dying to self!

When your good is evil spoken of, when your wishes are crossed, your advice disregarded, your opinions ridiculed, and you refuse to let anger rise in your heart of even defend yourself, but take it all in patient loving silence -- That is dying to self!

When you lovingly and patiently bear any disorder, any irregularity, and annoyance, when you can stand face to face with waste, folly, extravagance, spiritual insensibility and endure it as Jesus did-- That is dying to self!

When you are content with any food, any offering , any raiment, any climate, any society, any fallacy, any interruption by the will of God -- That is dying to self!

When you never care to be referred to yourself in conversation or record your own good works, or if after commendation when you can truly love to be unknown---That is dying to self !

When you can see your brother prosper, and have his needs met, and can honestly rejoice with him in spirit and feel no envy or questions God while your own needs are far greater and you are in desperate circumstances --- that is dying to self !

When you can receive correction and reproof from one of less stature than yourself and can humbly submit inwardly as well as outwardly, finding no rebellion or resentment rising up within your heart -- that is dying to self!

 

[Reba1]

I did not write the above piece on dying to self my Dad did mid 80s

 

[loveandsonship]

Greetings @loveandsonship

Re-read these scriptures please.

Ephesians 5:21-33 (NKJV)
21 Submitting to one another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.
29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

The rolls of husbands AND wives is clear
- husbands are to love their wives
- wives are to submit to their husbands.

But they are also to submit to one another. So although the wife is to submit to her husband, they are to submit to each other, if they are not pulling in the same direction they are pulling away from each other, this cannot be because the two become one flesh in marriage. v31

Christ was and is totally subjected to His Church, so wives are to totally submit to their husbands in everything v24

The husband is to love his wife as himself, the wife is to respect her husband v33

Respect, like love, is a two way thing,

I do hope this better explains your thoughts regarding 'submission' as a woman to her husband.

Blessings

Amen. Yet we fall short and err as husbands, and are not quite Christ. Christ subjects the church, not any of his members, until I, become subject. Perfect obedience comes tomorrow. Then my wife submits because I've died. Our cleaving is perfect, the church is brought into perfect unity. Tomorrow. So long as I entertain sometimes vain conversation, my wife ought submit in all things heavenly.

I think it's James that gives the order of house when the husband shames his own head, Christ. Then the wife holds order.

 

[loveandsonship]

Greetings, peace be with you,




Please read post #226 above.

I am a male, but I do not see this as two sides on a coin, but one side with two parts.

This seems to concern you if read out of context I can see why, allow me to continue please.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

Husbands have clear instructions also.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

and again more instructions to the husband

Eph 5:28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.

This is the part many do not understand, they are one flesh, they are to do everything together.

Eph 5:31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."

They are to do things together, share responsibilities, and do so in love for one another. The man goes to work to supply for his wife and family, the woman raises the family and looks after the home, they are doing so as one body, when together they share their time together, they talk about things they do together and as a family, the husband and wife are one. When they agree and compromise their marriage is like a house built on a solid foundations, if they pull in opposite directions the relationship is on a bed of sand, it is destined for collapse.

Note therefore how this message started.

Eph 5:21 Submitting to one another in the fear of God.

Notice also the comparison of this marriage

Eph 5:3 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Eph 5:29-30
For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.

If Jesus was to treat His Church, the ekklesia, the born again souls, like 'some men and some women' treat marriage, it would not survive. Not surprising therefore how many marriages actually fail.
- they fail because they do not see themselves as one body but separate individuals
- they fail because one or the other or both do not pull together
- they fail because the man thinks he is in charge but not as Christ describes
- they fail because the woman says, I will not obey, I will not say obey. If they cannot say that at the start of a marriage, on the most special day, they will not do so later.
- they fail because from the start they are pulling in the wrong direction.

Christ loves His Church, His bride, with an everlasting and unfailing love.
We, His bride (providing we are born again)
- we are to love Him as He loves us
- we are to submit to Him in love
- we are to obey Him in love.

That is all He asks of us
- Husbands are to love their wives, wives are to love their husbands
- Wives are to submit to their husbands in love
- Husbands are to love their wives as themselves
- Wives are to obey their husbands in love
- Both are to accept they have become one body, they are to pull together in love for one another, as for their own bodies
- Both are to love and not take the other for granted or for the situation to be abused in any way

Christ would never hurt, abuse, bad mouth or do or say anything to hurt her, His Bride. His wife.
The bride likewise should not hurt, abuse, bad mouth or do or say anything to hurt him, her groom. Her husband.

In His love

Thank you. That's actually useful. Not common even on foot.

 

[loveandsonship]

To me falling for the temptation and wimping out are the same . my use of language is simple

One who is dead to self would not speak so.

The problem though is far removed from this thread. Here we are having a "civil" discussion about ordered marriage on an electronic device.

I've sought Christ with reckless care some 25 years and am seasoned now, always hot, or if not then cold. People of church, and of the world do dismiss hot and cold. Jesus finds that one hot one or cold, in the church, in the bars, at the pastor's conventions, among the hundred, that one on a narrow way. He's not so concerned about the multitudes.