Is God good?

[james g]

neuroscience101 are you saying we are similar in a way to guinea pigs in test labs. It is cruel to bring a defenseless rat, and put it into tests, to decide whether to fry it later or set it lose. How can you convince that rat that his owner is good?its like when someone creates a toy to torture it. Or when someone buys a cat, put it in a cage, shake that cage forcefully, then release the cat and see how it behaves towards him, and will she be grateful that he provides for her food and water. The natural behavior of such cat would be to be scared and terrified at his sight. And if she did as ordered, it would be out of fear of torture, not out of love. How can you convince such cat that her owner is full of good?Is that how you see God?Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.Joh 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[s.i.e.]

If your interpretation of "Phil 2:12 calls us to do 'continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling' " is correct. Then by all means pursue subjects such as "election".

Perhaps, your quote is not saying what you think it is saying.

You may have to dig deeper to understand what Jesus Christ requires of you.

Please then, David777, let me know your interpretation of it? You seem to be implying that I may be interpreting it incorrectly...so, really, I am actually here to listen, so, please, enlighten?

What is it that Jesus requires of me? How should I change my M.O. here, so that I can do it correctly, brother?

If you have conviction in what you believe, then please, don't leave me to wander?

I'm not baiting you.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

If you don't care about theology, and somehow can allow yourself to never wrestle with some of the hard questions inherent in faith --

As described in Heb 11:1 NIV, faith is a decision to believe what we cannot understand with our limited intelligence. Paul talks about the limits of our intellects and how our understanding will be perfected in heaven in 1 Cor 13:12.

SLE

 

[David777]

Dear s.i.e.

Do not take this the wrong way, I am not saying you are wrong or right to question. It is human nature to question.

Our Christian life is simple, the Bible instructs us to love others no matter how they treat us, just as Jesus loved us! This is the royal command. Live by the Spirit not by the Flesh.

My opinion on election, though not ignorant of various arguments concerning the subject. Is that it is impossible to prove any position absolutely.

For example, a Calvinist might say that Calvinism gives the believer an assurance that they are saved. One problem with the determinist position is that they do not know whether they are not decieved into thinking that they are saved. Ultimately there is no real assurance in Calvinism.

I do know that Christ was predestined. We are predestined to encounter this Christ. Our decision regarding Christ is the key mystery that we do not fully understand. Most certainly we must persevere as Christians and to live a Holy life in Christ. This life is powered by the Holy Spirit.

So I leave this question in the grey region, and prefer to advance Christ and love above all this confusion. It is better not to commit to a position than to err in committing to a position which may produce erroneous interpretation.

 

[s.i.e.]

SLE - thanks. I can appreciate what you're saying. Of course, easier for me to say that than actually live it. *sigh*


David777 - you know, I hear you. The truth of it is that election became the topic that this thread has been dealing with for the last several pages. I have interest there, because I think it is one layer that may speak to the real question of this thread, and the one I am asking myself: whether I can believe that God is good, or not.

So, I agree with you that in the end, we'll probably never really know the answer to election...and to a certain extent, I can be ok with that.

However, the ability to have, or adopt, a simple childlike faith, a faith that would be ok with leaving questions like election on the table, and relatively unanswered --- that kind of faith inherently necessitates a settled answer, and a clear understanding on the character of God.

...which is why my real question, the question of the OP, was related to God's goodness, not necessarily something like election.

Anyways, I hear you, and appreciate your guidance regarding election. That said, I think there is some sort of correlation between how we view election, and how we view or believe in a GOOD God.

Yep. Stuck.

 

[AudreyNicole]

it seems I cannot delete posts so see the re-post below this :embarasse

 

[AudreyNicole]

How is it that Satan can't beat God, yet Satan could have caused/created such a fuss that the creation story (GOD'S CREATION STORY) ended up with the mess that we've got here? Is there something true...something

How is it that God didn't (couldn't? wouldn't?) pull the trump card on Satan right then and there, and as the U.S.A. just did with Osama Bin Laden...shoot to kill, and take the moth'e out on the spot. Take no prisoners...

I mean really...vengence is His, sayeth him...right? Why'd he hold back?

And I'm supposed to believe that He is good?

Which is why I ask how you guys "know" He is good.

I haven't read the whole thread... so forgive me if I repeat some other people's ideas. However, I feel I can relate to your questions very much.

I was born and raised in a "Christian" home. Went to church when I was little. But I have observed so much stuff over my short life that now as I am maturing I am questioning all of these things, too. I always called myself Christian but was always hesitant to associate myself with "those people", again because of what I had seen. I am also a very analytical person. I love debating and could sit around for hours discussing philosophy, science, social economics, etc. Faith is not often a part of such politics. So where did I find God in all of this?

Well, I'm still looking, but I've seen Him work. And this is how I went about finding Him. First, it was the simple act of separating Him from religion.

ri-lij-uhn:a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.
​

Key word there persons. I have found that people undoubtedly and always possess the *sometimes* unfortunate need to regulate, meaning laws, rules, standards, commands, requirements. These are indeed necessary to survive in (generally) civilized societies, but unfortunately it seems such regulation has made its way to God, and is termed religion. I once heard someone say, "Jesus never meant for Christianity to be a religion"... I believe this is true-- it was meant to be a lifestyle. It is not a man-made, fabricated set of rules and regulations, it is a lifestyle. Once you separate the God from the human, it becomes a lot more manageable. Sure I go to church and I call myself a "Christian", but I always try to seperate myself from the idea of being religious. I am not a part of a club, this is not high school... it is my life. You mentioned my favorite quote, "the church is a *****, but she's my mother"... that is my life motto (one of the many anyways). It truly describes the filthiness of this thing labeled "religion", and always points me back to the real reason for my life, Christ.

Second, you ask how God could be regarded as good if He allowed this horrible thing called "evil" to exist. That is where faith comes in. We cannot know all His ways, but here's what I assume:

1) You cannot know good, unless you know bad...right? Same with light and dark, sweet and sour, beauty and ugly (how would we ever know that Angelina Jolie was pretty if we didn't have Nicole Ritchie? lol). I think allowing "evil" was a way for God to show us His good.

2) You ask why He didn't just kill Satan on the spot.... well I think that act itself shows His love and mercy.

3) If you don't like #2 then how about this one. God will kill Satan in the end. In fact He will kill all evil. He will take out His vengeance and rid this earth of all evil. He does have power over Satan and will kill Him. He'll take Him out like Osama x 1000000. It'll be a God sized execution.

I'm still a "baby Christian" as they call me. I am still learning about the way God works and figuring out these questions and answers, too. I think one of the best ways to answer questions like these though, is by asking God Himself. A lot of Christians get really scared when people start bringing up the "tough" questions, and I find the most common reaction from them is a very defensive and almost aggressive one. And as any debater knows, when the opponent gets defensive it spotlights a weakness in their claim. They also get kind of squirmish when you bring up the idea of testing God...which I think is sort of outlawed in the Bible. But its not about testing God like a 5 year old poking someone waiting for them to react, instead I take the promises and claims made in the Bible and I basically say, "OK God, I'm doing what it says here in this text, now I am waiting for You to do what You say You'll do"... every promise you try mark a "T" next to it in your Bible, and those you prove, mark with a "P"-- "tried and proven". I think its a cool way to really let God show me the One He truly is. I am currently going through a trial that is greatly testing my faith, but I think the outcome of it will really "prove" to me God's great love... so I'll keep you updated, hopefully it'll be over soon.

I hope you don't get discouraged in your search for God... and please please please do not let people or religion get in your way. Just go straight to Him. Here's the first promise you can test:
You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. ~Jeremiah 29:13

 

[s.i.e.]

thanks AudreyNicole - I feel your wavelength here!

Yes, I have to agree with you on your point #1. Your point #2 is interesting. Perhaps, true.? I wonder if God loves Satan? Hmm. Perhaps if your #3 is correct, it would be a killing not out of anger, but out of mercy? Yes, a mercy killing. That would seem to fit.

If your #2 is correct...then it wouldn't be a killing out of anger or overwhelming frustration, or perhaps, even vengence. It would be mercy, it seems.

Yes, please do keep us updated on your trial, and how it may or may not show God's love, as you believe it will.

Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

SLE - thanks. I can appreciate what you're saying. Of course, easier for me to say that than actually live it. *sigh*

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked 'Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?' He called a little child and had him stand among them. And He said, 'I tell you the truth, unless you become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.'" (Mt 18:1-4)

Why did Jesus use a "little child" (a toddler, I suspect) as His model? Because toddlers are totally innocent. They have no guile in them, no egos to puff up, not driven by personal agendas or ambitions. I think this is why the apostle John in his first letter refers to his readers as "little children". Unless we become like little children - humble, guileless, stripped of pride and personal ambition, we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

SLE

 

[David777]

Dear SpiritLed.

Truly beautiful answer, from a person I know is guided by the Holy Spirit. These toddlers naturally believe in everything, no rational explanation required. They accept what they are told.

 

[Jacob123]

Hello s.i.e. I recommend you look up a YouTube user named VenomFangX . Hopfeully his videos will anwser some of your questions about God

 

[s.i.e.]

Truly beautiful answer, from a person I know is guided by the Holy Spirit. These toddlers naturally believe in everything, no rational explanation required. They accept what they are told.

yes..but how many examples could we also give of those who are headed towards their demise, perhaps unknowingly, because they have always accepted what they are told?

I agree that it is a beautiful answer, and thanks SLE for it...but even while it may be a true statement, it lies in paradox. The Bible gives us other guidance as well, such as in Phil 2:12, etc. Or on an entirely different note, we can look at the sheep and goats parable of Matt 25:31-46, where our salvation appears to be determined by what we have DONE, as in, our works! Little toddlers wouldn't know anything of this sort, it seems to me. So, SLE's statement, while beautiful and true, seems to be one end of a paradox. Doesn't make it less true, of course.

Hello s.i.e. I recommend you look up a YouTube user named VenomFangX . Hopfeully his videos will anwser some of your questions about God

well...what can I say? This guy was entertaining...I'll definitely give him that. Also, some enlightening things I heard him say too.

Thanks for the tip, Jacob123 - really, there was some interesting stuff there. I'll have to go back and check more out at some point. He's got a lot there.

 

[vitalii]

Hi there. First post. Sorry if it may be in the wrong place. If it is...not sure if there is a way I can change that around.

Anywho...I'm curious about this question. I'm sure the resounding answer from all 'yall will be yes, absolutely, and then give me a bunch of scriptures that would prove it. That's fine. I don't mean to take away from that...but...

How do you know it to be true? Please, outside of quoting scriptures...how to you know? I don't mean to minimize scripture here...but I could quote anything from any book to support my view on most anything I might want, right? Me quoting something doesn't tell anybody how or why I believe it, or how it's real in my life.

b/t/w - if this helps, I'm not asking because I'm looking to debate. I want to listen. I want to hear. It's become a real question to me that I'm asking myself.

Thanks

I would like to approach this question with different way. Instead of answering a question let's see what answers we can have.
The answer can be
a)YES God is Good
b) No, God is not Good.

Now let's assume that you know answer to this question.

If A is true how will it affect your behavior?
If B is true how will it affect your behavior?

 

[Brighthouse]

Hi all. If I may just point out something to consider. As S.I.E.pointed to something I myself believe is very inportant!! Is God good? If he is to the person,then there life reflects this,in everything he says and does. If they do not believe God is Good then there live reflects that. We always act on, what we truly believe in.Saying one believes, and living according to what they really do believe,can be very different.Just a thought.

 

[s.i.e.]

Vitalii & Brighthouse -- good questions, and I can only agree with Brighthouse's conclusion to Vitalii's question.

But to that, I say, so what? In other words -- just because if you believe something one way you'll be happy, doesn't necessarily mean that you should believe it! Why do you all think that denial is such a prevelant and powerful force, as it is? Because sometimes, we can live far "happier" lives if we choose to look away from the truth, right?

In other words...we should all be seeking the truth of the matter, not just chooseing to believe in whatever way causes us to be "happy", or travel down the path of "least resistance". Right?

So, I'm not sure the relevancy of that line of questioning.



Ok...back to The Matrix, simply because this (I think) gives us a very relevant metaphor as to why it is folly to choose to believe something just because it may be easier to believe it: remember when Cypher sold-out to Agent Smith? Remember when he was gnawing on some really good steak and red-wine, and became a traitor to the cause of freedom? Here is that part of the script:


Sitting across from Cypher is Agent Smith.

AGENT SMITH
Do we have a deal, Mr. Reagan?

Cypher chews the steak loudly, smacking it between his
teeth.

CYPHER
Mmm, so, so good.

Smith watches him shovel another hunk of meat into his
mouth.

CYPHER
You know, I know that this steak
doesn't exist. I know when I put
it in my mouth, the Matrix is
telling my brain that it is juicy
and delicious. After nine years,
do you know what I've realised?

Pausing, he examines the meat skewered on his fork. He
pops it in, eyes rolling up, savouring the tender beef
melting in his mouth.

CYPHER
Ignorance is bliss.

AGENT SMITH
Then we have a deal?

 

[Brighthouse]

Intersting point S.I.E. some people believe they can be happier living as the World does,but there is one sure test to see if what they precieve is good is really good? You see most do not mind a dark place,as long as they believe they can see or get to the light if so needed.

I take you, and place you in a closet,I close the door,but even though you may not care to be there,you notice a light is on in the room,but all of a sudden,the light goes out!

And the closet door which you have been put in is locked,with no way out. FEAR COMES through the darkness to you,because your mind believes you can never get out on your own. I hope you did not mind me using you as only an example!! It could be anyone,the point being this!

If you know Jesus is good,then his love abides in you,and since this is true as well, we also know that this perfect love which can only come from a God who is good!!Casts out ALL fear!( 1 John 4:17-21) If however we do not believe God is good,then the fear we have,is with very good reason is it not?

 

[David777]

Hello again s.i.e

Is God good? Is creation a setup?

Well let's look at Isaiah's reaction to a vision he received:

"The whole earth is full of His glory.” And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. Then I said, “Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.”

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven.” " (Isaiah 6, NASB)

Your reaction s.i.e would be the same as mine if we received this revelation. We only realise our inner condition when we encounter God. Isaiah knew he was not good by any measure! So, like other prophets in the Old Testament we get face down on the ground. We have no other option. We are powerless in the presence of God.

If creation is a setup then there is nothing you or I can do about it.
No amount of deliberation or rationalization will help you. This is way beyond you ability to evaluate or judge. Mankind has no say or control regarding creation.

This is the core problem you have s.i.e, there is no measuring stick you can use. To measure whether you are good and rational or whether you are deceived and evil. You cannot know whether the origin of your question is from a source of good. What an unfortunate dilemma you have put yourself in. This is a futile question that has no real answer. We live within this creation, if it is a setup, there is nothing we can do about it. All is futility!

Personally, i do not view creation as a setup, we have choice. The Holy Spirit gives us the choice. Humanity tends not to make good choices judging by History (war and oppression). You will never find release and goodness outside of Jesus.

But, you will not know if God is good unless you trust Jesus completely. In time you will respect Jesus because He is the only source of good.

 

[vitalii]

Vitalii & Brighthouse -- good questions, and I can only agree with Brighthouse's conclusion to Vitalii's question.

I read your comment but i don't see that you answered my question with clear answer that I could understand.
So I am going to ask same question again.

Let's imagine that God decides to reveal himself to you and answer that question. God comes to you and say
"The answer to your question is No. I am not Good. I am Bad God by your standard"

So now you have your answer from God. what will be your next action?

 

[Brighthouse]

I would call this person who said they were God a Liar!! because God said he even put his Word!! above his Very name!! Psalm 138:2!!! Then I would know that this person playing God was the devil!! 2 Cor 11:14-15! That is what I would say! and now, you have your answer to!! LOL

 

[s.i.e.]

You see most do not mind a dark place,as long as they believe they can see or get to the light if so needed.

I take you, and place you in a closet,I close the door,but even though you may not care to be there,you notice a light is on in the room,but all of a sudden,the light goes out!

And the closet door which you have been put in is locked,with no way out. FEAR COMES through the darkness to you,because your mind believes you can never get out on your own. I hope you did not mind me using you as only an example!! It could be anyone,the point being this!

If you know Jesus is good,then his love abides in you,and since this is true as well, we also know that this perfect love which can only come from a God who is good!!Casts out ALL fear!( 1 John 4:17-21) If however we do not believe God is good,then the fear we have,is with very good reason is it not?

hmm...interesting point, Brighthouse. I love your answer to this, even though it is hard. As for your analogy? If I thought about it too long, it may keep me up nights. Yes, I would fear the light turning off in the closet and the fear coming in. I think I do fear that, now that you mention it.



David777 - I am humbled by your words. I know it has been said to me once or twice prior, in this thread...but I think you are right, there is really no answer, per se, to my question...and probably yes, it puts me in a dilemma, probably per my own doing, I suppose. *Ugh!!*

I think this is wisdom - but very difficult for me to accept - that this is probably (my words!) way beyond my ability to evaluate or judge.

I have also been led to believe lately -- by conversations I've had on this subject outside of this thread -- that choice may make sense. I know that sounds sophomor'ic to you who have already believed this for some time now...but whatever, I'm just being honest.

I read your comment but i don't see that you answered my question with clear answer that I could understand.
So I am going to ask same question again.

Let's imagine that God decides to reveal himself to you and answer that question. God comes to you and say
"The answer to your question is No. I am not Good. I am Bad God by your standard"

So now you have your answer from God. what will be your next action?

Vitalii - that was because I view your question as unhelpful, albeit perhaps, interesting. I wasn't deliberately trying not to answer, but I just view it as a question that puts the proverbial "cart before the horse".

I'm looking for truth, and you don't find truth by first asking yourself how you would feel about the hypothetical answers to a question, and based on said answer, you can be lead on which answer-set you would like to live with.

Anyways, that aside, I'll try to directly answer the question you ask (re-asked?) above.

The answer is I wouldn't exactly know what to do, or how to think if God came down and said to me that no, He is not good by my standard. Why? Well...because you've left two independent variables, variable! You have left both the "good" as well as the "by your standard" variables, float! So...I would be left to think that perhaps "my standard" is faulty, or, God's character is faulty --- or neither, or nor!?!

If you asked your question in a different way, where you left out the "by your standard" verbiage --- and God came down and simply answered my question by saying "No, I am NOT good. I am also NOT evil. I am neither, and I am agnostic towards what you humans consider to be good or evil! I don't think in those terms. Everything has been predestined by me from the beginning, and was setup and put in place before Eden. I created Lucifer, and he was also destine to fall. You may call it a setup, but who are you to question my sovereignty? I did it because it fancied me. I was bored. I wanted to be humored, perhaps. Whatever, it doesn't matter - I wanted it, so it was. And you are part of it. i hope you've enjoyed it. But either way, I know I'm pleased. etc etc...blah blah..."

Did you ever see The Truman Show? If so, do you remember when the "creator" guy was trying to talk to Truman prior to Truman walking off the set, after he found out the truth of his existence?

To answer your question, I would probably act as Truman did, as he bowed for applause, exited stage left, and never looked back. As he left his "creator" for good.

I would attempt, as best I could, to deal with a good dosing of resentment, anger, bitterness, and contempt for my situation...but I would try to somehow put my chin up. I would try my best to be prepared to accept whatever fate this god would deal me down the road, whether that be what I would consider "good" or "bad"...but truthfully, I wouldn't be sure that either of those outcomes would feel all that different, one to the next. It would be a tragic depressing life. Suicide may be an appealing option...but then again, why even go there? I would live my life for myself and those I care about, and would try to restrain myself from cursing this joke of a god. Or, from time to time, i may curse him just to feel better...but as that would get old, I would go back to living out my existence in the best way I could.

How's that for depressing? That is my answer to your question.

Now, onto happier things?

(thinks to self: sheesh! Why am I putting myself through this!!!)