Is God good?

[happyharold4]

S.I.E.---Tell us a little about yourself and your relationship to Jesus Christ---Thanks

Happy

 

[David777]

S.I.E

Easy question.

God created the universe, life and you.

The definition of good is decided by God, not us. Why, because how could we possibly know what good is. It would become a philosophical conundrum for us. Personal opinion. That's why philosophy will continue the debate indefinitely.

How could man question if God is good, when God is the source
of life itself. This is the central problem man has. There is no answer
outside of God.

See, no scripture.

 

[s.i.e.]

I'm actually very happy that you're asking your questions and being honest, sincere about your feelings. That's great and we're here to help you, all of us

I mentioned the tone thing because I was getting the impression that you might be here to debate against, basically what we believe in.

thanks Chad.

I'm not here to challenge what you all believe in...I'm here, as I'm challenging what I believe in. If, however, that might cause any of you to also be challenged in how you believe, I'm curious if that would be too faux pas so as to cause me to be kindly removed from this community?

Again, I'm new here...and don't know how that all works. That said, if there is any challenging of what you all believe in, I would think that would be welcomed.

I once heard Adrian Rogers say "a faith that cannot be tested is a faith that cannot be trusted". I think he's spot on. I'm not here to do that, but I can't guarantee that a challenging of your faith might not be an unintended consequence. That's between the reader and God alone. If anything might cause a faith to be shaken...I think Jesus had several examples of wanting the chaff blown away. He came to divide, and create hot or cold, right? That's not my goal...but it might be His.

s.i.e., God is the light, darkness is everything that is absent of God.

Jacob123 - with respect, on one level I can see how that might sound good, but I think that in the end, it's a bit of a disservice to view that God is only one side of that equation.

If he is God...He alone is responsible for all things, and all the has been created, and anything we can see / witness / explain / name...along with all that we can't. He is everything. The Alpha and Omega pretty much covers all angles...and I can't imagine how we can explain away the darkness in that. If you have any scriptures that would back up your idea that God didn't create all things...including darkness, Satan, the serpent in the garden, etc., I would be interested in seeing that.

S.I.E.---Tell us a little about yourself and your relationship to Jesus Christ---Thanks

Thanks for the interest, happyharold. I guess at this point, the relevant thing is that I'm a guy who's faith is apparently going through the crucible, and may or may not come through on the other side.

Raised Christian...with christian schools and churches and friends and acquaintences from cradle till now. Most of that has been good, and helpful, and safe...but a lot of it has been (can I swear on these here forums?) a whole lot of b.s. too. In that regard, my view on the church aligns with a quote that Tony Compolo once said: "The Church is a *****, and she's my Mother". Yep...he's right on there. God see "Lord, Save us from your Followers" if you haven't seen it yet. It's on Netflix.

Outside of that, I don't mean to dodge your question...but there could be a million more ways to take your question...but I think that's what's germane at this point.

Easy question.

God created the universe, life and you.

The definition of good is decided by God, not us. Why, because how could we possibly know what good is. It would become a philosophical conundrum for us. Personal opinion. That's why philosophy will continue the debate indefinitely.

How could man question if God is good, when God is the source
of life itself. This is the central problem man has. There is no answer
outside of God.

See, no scripture.

well done David777. (the "no scripture" part) To be honest, I kind of feel I shouldn't have tried to control your responses by requesting that you keep scripture out. I did that because I want to hear YOUR stories...not just a bunch of quotes. I know the Bible. It's sometimes helpful. Right now, not so much to me.

As for this idea that we shouldn’t have the right to determine what is good, or define “good”…are you sure about that? Are you sure that God hasn’t given us that kind of choice in the matter? Are you sure that God has asked us to not take a view on that? That we should’t have the right to determine what is “good”, or what that looks like, or what that means?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
<o> </o>
Even the U.S. Constitution gives us that liberty. The idea that we cannot or should not have the liberty to define what “good” looks like, to me, sounds more like a totalitarian dictatorship to me. I understand that the Kingdom of God IS more like a totalitarian dictatorship…but I’ve always been told that God is Good…so the fact that it might be totalitarian, and the fact that it might be a dictatorship…is actually a GOOD thing, and can be trusted BECAUSE he is the universe’s most benevolent and loving dictator ever.
<o> </o>
I just wouldn’t think that God would be threatened by our asking, or determining, “good” here. And IF he is good…and we’re made in his image…then I think maybe this part of the discussion is, or SHOULD be a moot point entirely…because as we’re in his image, then what might be good for him may also be good for us too?

 

[Jacob123]

Jacob123 - with respect, on one level I can see how that might sound good, but I think that in the end, it's a bit of a disservice to view that God is only one side of that equation.

If he is God...He alone is responsible for all things, and all the has been created, and anything we can see / witness / explain / name...along with all that we can't. He is everything. The Alpha and Omega pretty much covers all angles...and I can't imagine how we can explain away the darkness in that. If you have any scriptures that would back up your idea that God didn't create all things...including darkness, Satan, the serpent in the garden, etc., I would be interested in seeing that.

If you're dwelling in God, you are dwelling in the light. If you're dwelling in darkness, then you are not dwelling in God. God is everything that is not evil.

To get a freezer cold, do you put coldness into the freezer? No, To get a freezer at a cold temperature, you have to remove heat from it! Cold is a term for something that lacks heat. Darkness/sin is a term for something that lacks God. To dwell in darkness/sin, you have to remove God from it.

God gave us the perception of what is good and what is bad. God is 100% percent good, if we don't choose God and his goodness, then we are choosing darkness and sin.

 

[s.i.e.]

If you're dwelling in God, you are dwelling in the light. If you're dwelling in darkness, then you are not dwelling in God. God is everything that is not evil.

To get a freezer cold, do you put coldness into the freezer? No, To get a freezer at a cold temperature, you have to remove heat from it! Cold is a term for something that lacks heat. Darkness/sin is a term for something that lacks God. To dwell in darkness/sin, you have to remove God from it.

God gave us the perception of what is good and what is bad. God is 100% percent good, if we don't choose God and his goodness, then we are choosing darkness and sin.

I guess I may be too dense to understand this.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with anything you say above...but none of it, per se, would give reason to explain away that God created darkness. You're explaining where God is, where he "lives" (in light) and where he doesn't live (in darkness)...but how does that explain away that he did or didn't create both?

And if he created both...then what does that mean? Imply? Tell us?

God created darkness. He then separated it from the light. He created lucifer. It's theologically interesting to parse out the differences between "allowed" or "intended" or "purposed"...but in the end, given that He is sovereign...it's really all the same. If God did not intend for lucifer to be there, it would not be there. Same with darkness. Same with evil. Same with all things.

Either he intended the serpent to be in Eden, or he made a mistake.

I don't think anyone here would argue that he made a mistake.

 

[David777]

Dear S.I.E.

Your reply included the following,

"As for this idea that we shouldn’t have the right to determine what is good, or define “good”…are you sure about that? Are you sure that God hasn’t given us that kind of choice in the matter? Are you sure that God has asked us to not take a view on that? That we should’t have the right to determine what is “good”, or what that looks like, or what that means"

I never said that you do not have the right to determine what is good. Nor, did God deny you the right to question definitions of good.

God has given you a choice in the matter S.I.E. That is why you were able to conduct this debate.

Dictatorships are what mankind develops, and we are very good at dictatorships. God does not implement dictatorships.

God grants total liberty, freedom, etc.

Our problem Mr S.I.E is that mankind has had far too much freedom.
God allowed too much latitude to man and the devil. If you look around the World, oppression is everywhere.

I wish Hitler did not have so much power to wage war. To Hitler good was the third reich. Was he wrong? That is of course debatable. Some would say Hitler was evil, an antichrist. Others, liked his solution to the Jewish problem. See how twisted a concept of good can be.
Why did I mention Hitler, because his definition of good killed over 50 million people.

Incidently, the devil was originally an angel who thought he should rule. The devil was not always evil, nor was man originally.

 

[s.i.e.]

I don't have the answers, David777. I agree with you on some of your frustrations, that, at a minimum, it is difficult to understand.

 

[s.i.e.]

test post: just trying to see if this posts...as I just tried to start a new thread, and it didn't work. Perhaps I've been unwelcomed? test

 

[s.i.e.]

nope, it seemed to work. (just talking to myself here...sorry all!)

 

[happyharold4]

nope, it seemed to work. (just talking to myself here...sorry all!)

So SIE----You posted that you were raised from an infant to young adulthood surrounded by Christianity, the church etc---But what about your own personal decision to become a Christian or not?---You can hang around McDonalds all your life but it won't ever make you a big mac---But seriously have you ever tasted the goodness of God that you are questioning?---Look at it this way----You could be deathly ill and be prescribed a medicine that would in fact heal you completely---Instead of taking it you decide to analyze it and learn all there is to know about it----You at some point even with all that knowledge will have to take a step of faith and ingest the medicine to be healed---Knowing it's chemistry and all can't and won't bring the expected results----So to experience Gods goodness you will need to accept his forgiveness for your own personal sins on His terms and then you will have the joy of knowing you are His completely---Sure, you have heard it all your life, (seen many hypocrites and phonies), but it's between you and your maker and others have little to do with it.

Happy

 

[David777]

Dear S.I.E.

I did not have a Christian household to grow up in.

I consider you are very blessed to have had that upbringing.

For me, becoming a Christian was not a walk in the park.

I had to read the Bible extensively, check Old Testament prophecies.

Look up the meaning of many Biblical words and concepts. Check sources, etc.

I could not trust any advice, who could I trust.

Anyway, after much labour and research, Jesus Christ was both a historical fact and a spiritual reality. I was forced to become a Christain. Let me tell you going to church was by far the most confusing time of my life. I had no idea what it was all about.

Not long after that I ran into an old friend of mine. He too had become a Christian, same Godless backgound. Same research, same outcome. Interesting is it not.

 

[s.i.e.]

thanks David777, for sharing. Good perspective, bro.

happyharold - good analogy on the medicine thing. For my part, I suppose this may be tragic...but I've tasted the medicine. I've been ok with not trying, or feeling the need, to understand the science behind it. I've been both, from time to time, over time. I get that there is value and freedom in just simply drinking/ingesting the medicine without knowing much else.

It's just not where I'm at, at least not at this point in time.

And really, I'm not needing to know the science. I'm not trying to create a formula, or peel back every last layer of the onion. I'm just trying to understand a little better, some of it.

That may be folly...I suppose...but I can't deny that they are real questions. I can't avoid them, or so it seems, at this point.

And they are the kind of questions that I think some have put to rest, without the kind of challenge that needs to happen. That's of course, for each individual to determine...but for me for now, I need to know if I can trust God. I need to believe He is good. Or, not. But either way, I need to know the truth of it.

 

[Hekuran]

Is God Good?

Well there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

I am not attempting to give a full answer, as its the kind of question that takes a two-volume book to deal with properly.
When I doubt God's goodness - or the evil in the world and in me is more present and seems more real than God's goodness, these observations help me.

• The Bible doesn't shirk from the question. Passages such as Job 3, the account of the crucifixion in Mark 15 and others face up to it honestly, even though neat answers are not available.
• When I return to Jesus' death and resurrection, the problem becomes less acute for me - it is a kind of guarantee that God's plan is for grace and mercy
• And life is better trusting in God's goodness. Life is also harder doubting in God. I don't say that to suggest that anyone should close their eyes and ears to all that is around them and trust in God, but simply that for me life is richer, happier and freer when I trust in God.

Hope this adds something to the debate

Hekuran

 

[s.i.e.]

thanks Hekuran.

You're right, life is harder when I don't trust in God's goodness. I would agree with you there. But, maybe it's just harder because I haven't "landed" anywhere yet. I think anytime you're repositioning what you believe in, it's hard by definition.

As for the Bible...while it may not shirk questions, it also raises many others, and as you said, to the extent it may answer some, many are not at all "neat". I agree with that. Even so, I think it's a useful tool, for sure.

Thanks for bringing this to the discussion

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I'm not here to challenge what you all believe in...I'm here, as I'm challenging what I believe in.

Most of us here at TJ are not trained Christian apologists with the skills to handle the questions you raise. We truly love Jesus and we've had the truth of His Word confirmed in our lives, but, we've not been called to explain it and defend it at the level you desire.

I suggest that you look into the works of Adrian Rodgers (whom you quoted), Josh McDowell, Chuck Colson, Ravi Zacharias and others who've devoted their lives to Christian apologetics. And that you be prepared to accept by faith what you cannot possibly understand (see Heb 11:1 & Is 55:8-9)

SLE

 

[s.i.e.]

thanks SLE. I met with a pastor tonight, who I would also call a friend..and he handed me a book called "The Reason for God" by Timothy Keller. I've never heard of the book, and never heard of the author...but I trust him, and as I read the back cover and the insert, it seems to be right up my ally right now.

Thanks for your honest response.

 

[happyharold4]

S.I.E.---You seem to be a very analytical kind of guy---Studying like the Bereans is a good thing---But there are some that are ever studying and never coming to the truth---There's another way also if you are willing to slow your busy life down enough momentarily---Check out this verse---Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead: so that they are without excuse"---So take a little time and smell and observe the roses, look up into the starlit sky, look at your own body and how the design is so incredible and then realize that someone actually created all this and so much more for you to enjoy---Then meditate on the fact that that some one actually knows and loves you---Love Him back mate, that's all He wants.

Happy

 

[s.i.e.]

Analytical guy? Yes. Sometimes a virtue, many times, an obstacle.

happy - you're pretty observant. You're riight...I need to find more ways to unplug.

How to actually get myself to do it is a whole 'nother story. thanks for the encouragement

 

[will]

S.i.e, first I apologize for not re-checking this thread sooner.
I would respond to your response a lot faster...

will..you have a very fair point on your #1. Read my last post, and you may see why I have a problem believing he is good...or by what stnadard I might determine "good".

I re-read your last post and I hear you. If I measure God by *my* own standard, I would not think He is a good God. In fact, I know what *I* would do to "correct" God's "mistakes."

But in the same token, that's where things start to make no sense. If we say that He is God, yet we can understand *everything* that He does, then He is no longer a true God, he becomes a Creator whose creations are able to equal. Which (the Scriptures say) is precisely what satan wants us to think we are able to do, to equal God.

The key to get out of this question is one and only one: Accepting that we are His creations. And no creations can fully understand the mind of the one who created them *beyond* what the Creator has revealed to them. Therefore it is us who should be measured according tho His standard, not the other way around.

Now, that is not an cop-out statement. We are given a mind to think and to pursue understanding diligently, but we are also given a purpose, that is to fellowship and glorify our Creator. Those two should go hand in hand. When they are not hand-in-hand, confusion ensues.

That last part is hard to swallow by our selfishness and pride. And this last part is very important here in our discussion, watch for the point about "Purpose" later below.

As for your #2: that we have the complete revelation of God through the scriptures is, at best, debateable...but I appreciate you sharing your thought process, and how you've come to know truth.

It should not become a debate if we both see the same thread that is woven throughout the Scriptures. Lord Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished!" which means the work that is necessary for our (that's you and I, not Him) salvation is done, solely by Him. And the references to the "helper" which is God's own Holy Spirit will enable us to experience the relationship with the Lord Himself. That is what I meant by the complete (as in: we are in need of nothing more) revelation.

your #3: yes, repentence. Well...I don't forgive myself well or easily...so, that's obviously going to be a hard one for me to actually do...whether or not I could ever wrap my brain around it.

But see, that's the beauty of God's plan
*We* don't forgive ourselves. God does, and only because He received the sacrifice that His Son had given for *our* sake.

Again I am with you in this regard: I and only myself know what horrendous things I have done in the past. If it were up to me, I won't forgive myself either, but thank God we don't have to do that, all we need to do is to *accept* the restored relationship with God through our Savior.

Accepting is the first step of repentance, the next step is to make that conscious decision to renounce our past life and start to walk into the future of growing relationship with The Lord.

As for having your son die on a cross...well, I suppose that's a mix of both good and evil. I think, actually...that God can hold both of those two things in either hand, side-by-side each other...in the absolute center of the tention, and be at peace in it, and find love I think the cross was a perfect picture of the good and evil...held in the tension. God may own both sides of that equation. I think that's kind of where I'm falling out on this stuff...

I like your word-picture of the cross as the point of tension between Good and Evil.

God's sacrificing His only Son is powered by love. His love overcomes all evils that resulted from the creations' (man and angel) rebellion against Him. God is not holding Evil in one hand and Good in the other, He, by His very nature, cannot stand Evil, and His integrity and character demands justice. The Scriptures are very clear about this. And the book of Revelation is the proof that God is not at all tolerant with Evil and evil deeds. His punishment is severe and absolute.

your #4: You ever see The Matrix (#2) where the Merovingian is talking to Neo and Morpheus about how everything is cause and effect...but the real question, is the WHY? Remember him saying "you come to me because you were told to by the Oracle. Like a little boy, you followed orders...but you come here with no reason...no "why"...no knowledge of anything. Just cause, and effect." (I paraphrased there...but if you saw it, you'll remember)

Only God knows the WHY of this. We operate through something we call choice, but it might look more like cause and effect, I think. On the one hand, it's true we aren't robots, on the other hand, look at the choices God handed us: you choose Him, you get paradise...you choose Him not...you get death and damnation. Forever. And ever.

S.i.e, the WHY has been revealed to us through the Scriptures. By reading the Scriptures we *know* that we are His creations. That He, a Sovereign God, created us *and* loves us. That He gave this natural (as opposed to super-natural) universe for us to control (Genesis 1) so we can experience His goodness through His other creations in fellowship with Him.

Think about this: Had we not rebel against Him, there's no telling how far we would be exploring the universe by now, compare that to our current situation, stuck on this fallen world.

The WHY is no longer a mystery, in fact it is kinda hard to miss if you read the Scriptures.

I guess I might call that choice...but it might as well be someone putting a gun to your head and saying they'll kill you if you don't give them your wallet. Or, how about your life, actually? Even better. There's gotta be a better word for that, than choice. "Signed under diress", or something close, comes to mind.

I struggled with this too. Until (now I realized) the Holy Spirit opened my mind (through the Scripture, no bright light or voice from heaven or anything like that) to see *my* place in the Big Picture.

Here comes the keyword: Purpose.

A choice without a purpose is meaningless. That is my problem with the philosophy behind The Matrix. Cause and Effect without a purpose is nothing but gibberish. Utterly pointless. Deep inside, we know, that everything has a purpose.

God has given us a choice, yes. What choice? to either fulfill our purpose (to fellowship with Him to enjoy His creations) or to say no, and exist eternally without Him. Take away the purpose, and as you said, the choice becomes a threat instead.

Additionally, the Scriptures tells us that the Devil (diabolos a.k.a satan) have chosen the latter and he loves it when we forget our purpose, thus feeling that we have no choice or the choices are futile.

But as for God's consistency? No argument there from me.

Amen. Through this forum and I'm sure other means, you have heard (read, whatever) the message from God. The Creator who loves his creations so very much that whoever believes in His Son (who given up His very life) should not perish but live forever in fellowship with Him.

You are not the confused Neo in the Matrix, you are built for a purpose, you are not a robot, you are a loved creation of an Almighty Being. Now it is up to you whether to choose His side or not.

By the way, I appreciate this discussion and the opportunity to exchange thoughts with you.

 

[s.i.e.]

hey man...

What's up.

I don't know. I just don't know. What to think about this. What to say. I think I hear 'ya. I think I'm seeing something. I think I'm listening. I think I'm feeling something...gently, graceful, loving.

You sound real. You sound like you've thought about this stuff. Considered it. Maybe grappled with it. And I don't mean to just pick you out -- alot of the feedback here has been great, and worth my re-reading. (thanks all)

Whatever, I'm rambling. I guess I just want to say that I'm going to shut up and do like I said, and sit in the hearing and listening. And something seems to be *again* stirring...so I want to listen to that.

My mind can be such a cluster - trust me on that one. You don't want to go there.

Thanks

I'm gonna try to *breath*, at least just a bit