Is God good?

[will]

But should the virtue of not wanting pride to crowd out, exclude the questions? I'm sure there's a balance in there, somewhere. Anyways, I'm not saying your wrong SLE, but that's not reason enough for me to feel the need to cease and decist on my questions. I feel depressed in this struggle. I even went on the web to see if there are any agnostic/athiest groups that I could check out, because I don't feel I'm getting any answers that satisfy some of my questions.

S.i.e, I'm not answering for SLE, but I'd like to point out that the virtue of 'not wanting pride' isn't a factor in asking the questions. The questions you asked are good ones, and natural ones. The Scriptures says that we are all sinners, all of us fall short of the Glory of God (summarized in the first part of the book of Romans). So to me it makes sense that we are cautious of anything, even ourselves and God.

However, the problem of pride does come into the picture when and whether you choose to accept the answer to your questions.

Let's start from there, where are you getting your answers?

From this forums and any other biblically-minded sources, you will get the pointers to the Scripture because that is where the real answers are. Remember the point that I brought up about us (the creations) needing some kind of revelation from God (the Creator)? The Scriptures (as a whole) is that complete revelation, specifically written to instruct us of our purpose in this world.

Also remember that keyword: Purpose. As long as man (atheist and christians alike) choose to ignore our purpose as a creation, it does not matter where you try to seek the answer, you will either be exhausted and give up, or be spiritually disoriented all the time.

Next, you "could" get your answers from the atheists...

I can't put in a link yet on these forums -- so go to You Tube and type in "God the Psycho", and check out Pat Condell's 6.5min clip.

Seriously, if you strip out some of this guys cynical / comedic biases, and listen to some of his views on God, they make sense to me!

S.i.e, I can twist any story or message for the purpose of eliciting laughter from an audience. I may not be as funny as a professional comedian, but I could do it.

If you are considering atheists as a source, please keep one point in mind. They are not without bias, in fact, they have to be biased *against* the Scriptures to even have a platform to stand on.

Why is this? because all of us are bound to a natural world. How then can we *know* for sure that there are not a super-natural world? So if we want to reject the idea of God, all we can do is to refute and ridicule (in a lot of cases) the Scriptures because the Scriptures (as I mentioned before) is a revelation from a super-natural Creator to His creation.

This discussion reminds me of a long time ago, when I seriously consider to become an atheist. All their arguments seems make sense until I discover that none of those arguments have a cohesive theme or message. Sorta like criticizing individual threads on a huge persian rug and missing the grand beauty of the tapestry itself. And all I can sense is their hatred towards the Scriptures and towards God. In a way, they are more faith-full to their self-made dogmas than most christians to the Scriptures.

I've mentioned why Eden seems like a setup...which he actually mentioned too...but he talked about alot of other things about the God of the O.T. If you actually think about them, objectively - as in if you just think of yourself as a person for a second, and not necessarily as a person who needs to be biased by a particular faith or viewpoint, God is actually pretty crazy!

Telling Abraham to kill his son -- then no, let's not do that (nevermind the psychological damage here!) -- or killing all the people via a flood -- or telling people to go kill all the people in a particular town (women / children / et al) -- and oh by the way, pleaes go ahead and also burn it down to the ground too.

Ah, this is interesting
Let's explore this.

The fall of Adam and Eve. If you see this as a "setup", then I'm afraid you have *chosen* a position in which God is Evil.

Let's think for a moment: The story tells about a Sovereign Creator, who has given nothing but good things to the first man and woman. In Genesis 1 we read that God's purpose for creating mankind is for them to rule over the living things on this earth.

God also give the first man the most suitable and beautiful companion that he can't even imagine, a woman.

Then God gave a *clear* warning about staying away from two trees in the center of Eden. Which God has put there to test if man (and woman) are obedient to Him as their Creator God. That is His rule and objectively-speaking, being *the* Creator, He gets to set the rules.

The story goes on to say that it was Eve first, then Adam (the one responsible for Eve) *choose* to disobey God's warning. Satan already *chosen* to do that even before all this, that's why he tried to get man and women to follow him.

Now here is my question, how do you objectively infer a "setup" from this?

I can infer *choice* and freedom to choose. No arm-twisting, only a consistent and just Creator dealing with disobedient creations.

If you want, I can explore Abraham's story with you, but this post is getting long, and I wanted to respond to your other points. But please, let me know if you are curious.

Anyways - if you seriously ask yourself these kind of questions, and consider them simply as a human being (i.e., take your bias'ed hat off for a second) -- what do you do with all that?

How do you explain all that away? How do you reconcile the bad stuff God ordered to be done, with the belief that He is good?

S.i.e, who is our Lord and Savior? Who is it that the Old Testament prophets talked about? Who is it that in his brief life on earth has fulfilled all of the prophecies recorded in the Old Testament about Him? Why do you think He sacrifices Himself on the cross for us?

Has He ever once tell his disciples to murder others for His sake?
Has He ever tell his disciples to strike back with violence?
What did He do to an ear which was cut off in an attempt to defend Him?
Has He ever disobey God, His Father, the same God that is revealed in the Old Testament?
Has His apostles (there are only 13 of them) ever teach christians to murder others for Christ's sake?
What did they (the apostles) do to their persecutors?
What are His two most important commandments? Love your God, and love your neighbor.

I am sad that you omitted the above questions (really, the whole New Testament) from your research, which is similar to a very popular strategy employed by those who are *biased* against the Scriptures. Read on, I'm not ignoring the Old Testament...

And yet, we Christians are so completely offended when we hear that the religeon of Islam orders it's true followers to kill infidels? That doesn't seem all that different from the God of the O.T. that I read about!!

The Old Testament is an *accurate* historical record of what God must do to preserve his chosen people, Israelites, His commandments, His standards and His unchallengeable integrity. He can utter a single word and none of us would be here today, yet he has chosen to give us a record of what He had to do in order to steer us back to our purpose. That's how serious He is.

Read the *specifics* of those commands to kill. Each has its own unique condition in which God must do it (in His sovereign power and wisdom, which none of us can equal) and has given ample times and warnings, not out of evil or malicious intentions. How do we know this for a fact? because this is the same unchanging, immutable God who later (from our perspective, not His) sacrificed His only Son for *all* humanity.

Regarding comparison with Islam (I grew up in a nation whose people are predominantly Muslims), Our Lord and King, Jesus the Christ (not a mere prophet) commanded us to *pray* for those who persecute us. Do not make the mistake of putting Him at the same level as a warlord who claimed to have a direct revelation from his god, all by himself.



In closing, S.i.e, I have done my best to use objectivity in all my correspondence with you so far. I have avoided sharing my personal experiences, and the experiences of those around me (real people) whose life has been transformed by God's kindness and grace.

But ultimately the choice is still yours. In the end, I truly hope that you come to a decision not to take portions of the Scriptures out of its intended context and purpose, and *much* more importantly, to open your mind to the Holy Spirit.

As always, thank you for this opportunity to exchange thoughts.

 

[s.i.e.]

The Old Testament is really a testimony to man's evil nature, and the New Testament is a testimony to God's merciful, loving nature. In the OT, God is concealed and man is revealed. In the NT God is revealed and the solution to man's evil nature is fulfilled.

hmm -- yes and no. I'm not sure how the O.T. should not also be viewed as a testament to God's nature as well. I like your thought here -- but I don't think either of them are mutually exclusive on this matter.

God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever - right? If so, maybe we just see different pictures of Him in the O.T. vs.the N.T. I would agree, that Jesus is the picture that most easily translates to human-beings. That's the picture of God that we can most easily understand and accept. I agree with that.

@S.I.E. (OP): So much of this defies logic. I can only say based on faith, feelings and experience that God is good. He has never failed me.

Thank you strawberry. I love your simplicity. I envy it, right now. You are right - much of it defies logic. Also, I don't necessarily "need" to have God fit into my logic box -- but at the same time, there are some "deal-breaker" concepts that I feel need to be properly viewed in order for a person to truly have the kind of faith necessarily. For me, it's part of the working out your salvation mandate. I'm not sure what the "He has never failed me" looks like to you -- but I like it, and it's awesome that you can know that and rely on it -- look back to it, and reference it. You'll need to do that, from time to time.

If you think mankind is basically good, then yes God is cruel and viscious. But, if you think mankind is not good, then God is just.

I hope you are with me so far s.i.e.

Whoa --- really? Our view on mankind is a precursor to what our view may or may not be of God? He made us. In any case, this is a question of His nature, and His nature cannot be said to be changed or unchanged based on human beings. He is either good, or cruel and vicious based on His nature alone. If your view might change of God based on what you think of humans -- then you, with me, are asking the same questions --- you just may not know it yet. In any case -- what do you do with this verse:

Gen 1:27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

God made man -- and He called it "very good".

Based on your claims, that would make God a liar.

God also made evil. He didn't call evil "very good" - but I still haven't found that verse to show that God did not create evil. The Bible states that He did create it though.

This may well be a very long process to explain why God acted the way He did.

understatement of the thread! Right on, bro!

Joseph Stalin executed 17-19 million of his own people to ensure that his leadership was not threatened. Joseph was just ambitious and very cunning. Was he all that different to us, honestly.

I agree with you, that you, me, anyone around us -- are all capable of pulling a Joseph Stalin move, and are no different from Stalin in God's eyes without Jesus.

So if God destroys, you can be guaranteed He is fully justified in doing so. Remember we destroyed His son .

I've never questioned whether God is "justified" in His actions. I've never questioned His sovereignty to do whatever it is that He might do, or has done.

I'm just questioning whether He is good. That's a much much harder question. I think even you might agree with me at this point. I don't want to assume though...


As for His Son: we destroyed His Son, you say. Ah yes - well, this is where it may get complicated. This is true on the one hand, yet, on the other, it is completely false. We pulled it off, yes -- but It was clearly Jesus' Father's plan, designed specifically for Jesus, to get crucified.

That I think is ample evidence that we are not truly good by any measure.

So - back to the question, which I'm beginning to think there is no answer to, except the ones we choose to believe: you've got this evidence that you think proves that human-beings are not "good by any measure". I'm not disagreeing with you, necessarily -- but take Jesus' crucifixion and ask yourself who really caused that to happen? Who set the plan in place for it? Who perpetuated it?

It was not humans, brother David777.

Dear s.i.e like I said before you are restrained by the way you see God in the Old Testament and the New Testament. It is your assumptions that are misleading you.

And you, yours. I think my assumptions mislead me - as do I think some of your assumptions mislead you. I feel at least partially aware of which assumption I might make that I maybe shouldn't be making -- which is, in part, why I seek more clarity on them, here.

In the Old Testament, God warns Israel not to abandon the orphans and widows. Is this an evil God. When death entered the World through Adam, did God laugh and say "you got what you deserved".

Yes - and in other parts of scripture, He mandated the killing of ALL people, including orphans, widows, and their cattle too.

No, I don't believe God laughed when Adam sinned -- I believe that similar to God's designed plan He had with His own Son, that when Adam sinned, God neither laughed nor took joy in it. I do think, however, that He was pleased with it, as it was the execution (no pun intended) of His Sovereign plan.

I have just reread all the posts and find that post #5(brighthouse) and post #31(david777)are pretty much bulletproof as far as your original request goes.

Yes - thank you. I re-read them -- and I think they're great. They're really posts of personal testimony. I appreciate reading them.

Is it possible that God took the blame for many of Man's cruel decisions.Making him appear to be as schizophrenic as man.

Oh - I don't know. That's an interesting thought. I still don't know how well that would stack up to Gen 1:27, where we're made in His image. I think we're pretty schizophrenic -- but I'm not sure He's not just as schizophrenic. (For lack of better terminology!)

 

[s.i.e.]

God may have created evil but that does not mean that He is capable of being evil, because he isn't. It is impossible for God to be anything other than good. God may have created Satan, but Satan did not come from God because he was not of God. Anything that comes from God has to be eternal, and Satan and his demons, and evil will be done away with, because they did not come from Him - are not eternal.

I appreciate your thoughts here, Eagle Eyes -- but how could it be that an entity could create something, yet not have a part of himself that at least identifies, with that something? Perhaps God is not capable of being evil (He just created it. ??) -- but how can you say that "Satan did not come from God because he was not of God" -- if God Himself created Satan?

Also -- where do you backup (i.e., scripture) this idea that Satan and his fallen-angels are not eternal beings? Again, God created them, originally anyways, as angels -- which are eternal beings, are they not? Not only that, but they also "came from Him" originally, no?

It may look like God doesn't know what He is doing sometimes, but He does.

Again, I've never questioned whether He knows what He's doing, or not. He is sovereign, and has every right to do whatever the heck He wants to do, whether I like it or not.

I cannot think of any part of the Bible that would suggest that God created evil, nor any Christian tradition that teaches it..

So --- your choice here: but if I were you, I might seriously begin to question "Christian tradition"!! Welcome to the dilemma, Hekuran. Battle well.

Surely by definition creating evil would be an evil action.

That's a fantastic question. Let me know when you have the answer, please?

 

[Hekuran]

Welcome to the dilemma? I've been thinking about it for the past 20 years!

I am absolutely sure that God did not create evil. The Bible verse posted that suggested he did is misleading: almost all translations render it "I create calamity" or "I create disaster".

My understanding is that God created everything good, but also gave people the freedom to choose whether to live under God's authority.

In any case, the expectation of the end of evil is more interesting than its origin. I Corinthians 15.51

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”​

 

[s.i.e.]

S.i.e, I'm not answering for SLE, but I'd like to point out that the virtue of 'not wanting pride' isn't a factor in asking the questions. The questions you asked are good ones, and natural ones.

Thanks will. I feel like an abberation in all this -- but I know that's not the real truth. The real truth is something you're reminding me of, above. Thanks. Yes, they are, in fact, real questions. Thanks for saying it's ok.

From this forums and any other biblically-minded sources, you will get the pointers to the Scripture because that is where the real answers are. Remember the point that I brought up about us (the creations) needing some kind of revelation from God (the Creator)? The Scriptures (as a whole) is that complete revelation, specifically written to instruct us of our purpose in this world.

Also remember that keyword: Purpose. As long as man (atheist and christians alike) choose to ignore our purpose as a creation, it does not matter where you try to seek the answer, you will either be exhausted and give up, or be spiritually disoriented all the time..

Yes - you're right. I know scripture fairly well. That said, I've intentionally been out of them for a while now. That said, you're right, I know there is a lot of good guidance there.

This discussion reminds me of a long time ago, when I seriously consider to become an atheist. All their arguments seems make sense until I discover that none of those arguments have a cohesive theme or message. Sorta like criticizing individual threads on a huge persian rug and missing the grand beauty of the tapestry itself. And all I can sense is their hatred towards the Scriptures and towards God. In a way, they are more faith-full to their self-made dogmas than most christians to the Scriptures..

Fair enough. That said -- while I appreciate (really!) your fair warning...in my mind, there is a giant chasm between athiests (which requires a lot of specific faith in another thing) and agnostics. I don't question that there is a higher power, and I don't think (speaking to self: watch out!) I ever will. I don't doubt that part. I agree, that it takes a lot of faith to be an athiest. That's not a faith I think I could take on.

Now here is my question, how do you objectively infer a "setup" from this?

I can infer *choice* and freedom to choose. No arm-twisting, only a consistent and just Creator dealing with disobedient creations.

If you want, I can explore Abraham's story with you, but this post is getting long, and I wanted to respond to your other points. But please, let me know if you are curious..

Have you read Gen 1-3 lately? Of course, this is a debatable thing...which is why I'm confused about it. I think, in the end, how we view the God of Gen 1-3, becomes based on how we, in the end, choose to believe it. And then from there, build a faith upon it. So, choice? Sure. How choice? Not sure. How and why we choose how we do? Not sure.

Anyways - how a setup? I've had a post or two as to how and why it appears to be a setup to me...so I won't repeat...but fair to say, in my mind, that it was an eventual inevitability for them to eat of it. And if it wasn't Adam and Eve who did it, it would have been you or me!

Why? Curiosity killed the cat, my friend. It's how God made us. It's how He designed us. To be creative. To wonder. To think. To have a certain sense of independence about us.

Because we were made in His image, that's why!

As for the Abraham scenario - it's not that I'm not interested in that, but it's the same question, just a different scenario, I think. Lots of ways to get there, but Eden is a good start. (since it was, THE start!)

I am sad that you omitted the above questions (really, the whole New Testament) from your research, which is similar to a very popular strategy employed by those who are *biased* against the Scriptures. Read on, I'm not ignoring the Old Testament...

I haven't mentioned Jesus or the N.T. all that much, because that's not where I have my problems! Jesus creates little, if any, dilemma for me! I can relate to Him! I do! I consider myself a follower --- I just can't ignore this other part of me that seems very much agnostic, and that is based on the Jesus' Father - the God of the O.T. I know, I know...we can start talking about how the two of them are one in the same...but hopefully we can agree that this is an entirely other discussion that would be far longer than this thread!

To quote the Doobie Brothers: "Jesus is just allright with me!"

He can utter a single word and none of us would be here today

Stop there. You're absolutely right. And the fact that we are eternal beings is actually pretty infuriating to me right now. It's like there's a gun to our heads demanding that we make one of two choices in this life 1) choose me (God) and live, or, 2) don't choose me and burn in hell, forever, and ever. And ever. And ever. For eternity. All the rest of your days. Did I mention weeping and gnashing of the tee'fers? Yeah...that's in the cards too. Sorry charlie!

So -- back to choice. If I have a problem with God. If I have questions that may not find an answer...what happens? Oh...unlucky you...you get door number 2.

And you know what? No blood on His hands. Oh, how's that, you ask?

Well...God's got a perfect reason to excuse Him from that decision. I might even call it brilliant on His part. He calls it choice. As in, He gave us choice, so it's up to us. Blood off of His hands!!

Kind of like Adam and Eve. He gave them choice, right? (er...well...maybe. Uh...read the fine-print on the bottom of the ledger, and you'll find that He designed them to make such a choice as they did. Not only that, but it was, in fact, His designed plan for them to eat of the fruit. Yet, it's all good in God's mind, right?...because it was their choice!

(but, God's not psycho, no...nor schizophrenic...no. He's good, remember? Scriptures tell us so.)

Regarding comparison with Islam (I grew up in a nation whose people are predominantly Muslims), Our Lord and King, Jesus the Christ (not a mere prophet) commanded us to *pray* for those who persecute us. Do not make the mistake of putting Him at the same level as a warlord who claimed to have a direct revelation from his god, all by himself.

mmm.. yes. good. stuff. Jesus. Yes. Ok. Back to some solid footing. What a wonderful God. And I know, that He is God. I just can't understand how He would be the same God that we see prior to His arrival.

I truly hope that you come to a decision not to take portions of the Scriptures out of its intended context and purpose, and *much* more importantly, to open your mind to the Holy Spirit.

As always, thank you for this opportunity to exchange thoughts.

no, thank you, will, for your thoughts. and...for your hope that I (we all?) see scriptures in their context, and open our hearts to the Holy Spirit.

I truly hope you're wrong, that I've already set myself towards making a choice in this. I am strongly persuaded both ways, actually.

In the tension.

thanks

 

[s.i.e.]

Welcome to the dilemma? I've been thinking about it for the past 20 years!

I am absolutely sure that God did not create evil. The Bible verse posted that suggested he did is misleading: almost all translations render it "I create calamity" or "I create disaster".

My understanding is that God created everything good, but also gave people the freedom to choose whether to live under God's authority.

In any case, the expectation of the end of evil is more interesting than its origin. I Corinthians 15.51

We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

“Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
​

no insult intended, Hekuran. Sorry if it felt like that to you. It sounds like you're sure that God had no part in the creation or perpetuation of evil or darkness. Maybe no dilemma at bay for you.

As for your verse - again, I'm sure I'm missing part of the mosaic-picture, that is God here...because when I read something like this, it again, appears to me, that God has set things up in such a way that He is the creator of the poison, as well as the antidote to cure it. And that, throws me off. I'm glad it doesn't for you. As I said earlier to someone else - I, in fact, envy that, at this point.

 

[s.i.e.]

actually, Hekuran - I need to correct something I said. I'm not actually being honest...so I'll correct that: I don't envy you. I felt that, when I wrote it...but the truth is, that my "feeling" of it was only me doing a "grass is greener over there" kind of thing.

In other words, I've lived decades in my faith not feeling the need to wrestle with these questions the way I find myself doing, now. In many ways, it seems like it would be nice to not have had the need to get this pandora's box out of the closet.

But I can't say I envy you, because it's just my story. Or, rather, it's just the part of the journey I find myself on, at this point in my life.

So, I neither envy you nor do I believe you're in a place that necessarily needs to change, or be altered. I don't know, and that's up to God.

I trust Him with you, as I would like to trust Him with me, and where He's got me at, even in the wrestling. Even in the "working out your salvation".

All I know is that for me, for now, I don't believe I would or could rejoice at seeing the "end of evil", since I know very little, or nothing, about it's origin.

It would be like seeing only the end of a really great movie. I might like it, it might entertain...and I might even feel happy about it, or like something really great just happened...but it would pale in comparison to having seen the first 9/10'ths of the movie.

You say you are absolutely sure of it's origin. That sounds appealing to me, at this point...but God's got me in this "other place" where I need to know Him in this other way.

And I want to be o.k. with that.

 

[Hekuran]

I'd have sent a private message if I were offended...

The reality of evil is a struggle for me. And I think that it is right for us all to struggle with it. I feel very odd about the idea of not being troubled by the bad things around us.

I get the sense that Jesus himself was distressed by evil. Not in the sense of questioning God the Father, or having philosophical/theological doubt, but in the sense of living among other people's pain. (Read any part of the gospels and it will come up sooner or later, but I am thinking of John 11)

Last year I visited churches Zimbabwe. My role was to interview people. I heard the most terrible stories: family members killed, starvation, mutilations, death threats, disease crippling whole families, desperate poverty.

I asked every person about how their experiences affected their faith. Every single one testified that God had been good to them. "Without God we would never have made it".

For me, these answers were very hard to hear. I considered that these people were telling me what they thought I wanted to hear, or that they trusted in God only because the alternative - God had abandoned them - was just too terrible to consider.

Let me tell you that if I were God for a day, I'd completely change Zimbabwe: the tyrants would be swept away, the people would shake off the shackles of oppression and poverty, and herds of Zebra would graze the grasslands again.

God has not done that, and it pains me that good people live in such misery.

But I have reflected hard on my time there, and I have concluded that what the people have said is true - God has been good to them. I may not be able to see it myself, but maybe one day I will.

One church asked me to preach on Sunday morning. I am not sure I spoke all that well, because I was working through so many issues myself. My text was Psalm 13

How long, LORD? Will you forget me forever?
How long will you hide your face from me?
2 How long must I wrestle with my thoughts
and day after day have sorrow in my heart?
How long will my enemy triumph over me?

3 Look on me and answer, LORD my God.
Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,
4 and my enemy will say, “I have overcome him,”
and my foes will rejoice when I fall.

5 But I trust in your unfailing love;
my heart rejoices in your salvation.
6 I will sing the LORD’s praise,
for he has been good to me.​

 

[Hekuran]

My last post was in reply to your earlier response.

I am not absolutely sure of the origin of evil. I am absolutely sure that the Bible does not teach that God created it, and I trust the Bible. But the Bible does not say much at all about the origins of evil.

And the second point, I am sure that you could rejoice in the end of evil because (even without knowing its origins) you have experienced evil and its effect on yourself and others.

Do you still pray?

I have found that when my thoughts and words and prayers fail me, I can often pray along with the Psalms.

One of the wonderful things about God is that he does not seem to worry to much about giving himself a good PR spin in the Bible. There are plenty of prayers full of anguish and frustration despair, and it may be that they could help.

 

[David777]

Dear s.i.e.

You are convinced that Jesus created evil within creation s.i.e. The choice made by Adam and Eve was forced. They were curious? It was inevitable that they would seek the knowledge of good and evil.They were in effect predestined to disobey Jesus.

A problem is evident in your replies s.i.e. You are assuming that Adam was similiar to us, this is not the case. Adam was not corrupted before he disobeyed God. Adam had pure choice which we do not. Adam disobeyed a direct instruction from God this is why he recieved the eviction notice.

Herein is the answer to your original question s.i.e. Adam was not evil, he became evil at the point of rejection of God. Evil is in fact rejection of the creator. Satan rejected God's authority this made Satan evil. This is an exponential process, the more you reject, the more evil you become.

Good and evil are not two sides of a coin s.i.e. Evil is rejection of life itself. That is why we are having this discussion, you are resisting what the Bible clearly tells us.

This Biblical revelation is not about good and evil. It is about the rejection of Love, Jesus Christ is Love. You were created by Jesus Christ in Love, but you are fallen in disobedience.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

One of the wonderful things about God is that he does not seem to worry to much about giving himself a good PR spin in the Bible. There are plenty of prayers full of anguish and frustration despair, and it may be that they could help.

When I first came to Christ, I ran into some TV preachers who seemed to be saying that if I just had faith my problems would be healed. I've been blessed to learn that sometimes God does provide miraculous deliverance but mostly He walks us through the issues.

"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
Your rod and your staff,
they comfort me." (Ps 23:4 NIV)

SLE

 

[strawberry]

Thank you strawberry. I love your simplicity. I envy it, right now. You are right - much of it defies logic. Also, I don't necessarily "need" to have God fit into my logic box -- but at the same time, there are some "deal-breaker" concepts that I feel need to be properly viewed in order for a person to truly have the kind of faith necessarily. For me, it's part of the working out your salvation mandate. I'm not sure what the "He has never failed me" looks like to you -- but I like it, and it's awesome that you can know that and rely on it -- look back to it, and reference it. You'll need to do that, from time to time.

My moment, when I knew, that *I knew* that God never failed me was a moment of reflection looking back a few years after going through some rough times and seeing how God worked all things together for good.

 

[will]

Why? Curiosity killed the cat, my friend. It's how God made us. It's how He designed us. To be creative. To wonder. To think. To have a certain sense of independence about us.

Because we were made in His image, that's why!

S.i.e, you are correct, we are made in His Image. Therefore we (Adam and Eve specifically) are fully capable to *choose* to be obedient to a *very* clear rule, coming straight from God Himself.

I think these are the two points (only two ) where you and I keep missing each other:
1. Choice depends on our will, God never forced us.
2. Purpose is key to understanding choices, if you remove purpose, choice has no meaning.

It is *not* inevitable that we would eat the fruit from the tree of Knowledge of Evil and Good. The truth is, it was by choice. A choice made by our first ancestors when tempted by an angel who also have *chosen* to disobey God.

Obedience in this case is following what God has planned for us, that is: our purpose. When chosen, obedience does not kill (or reduce) the value of curiosity, creativity and the sense of wonder. It enhances those, kinda like tuning to a radio signal, you get enhanced quality by "obeying" the frequency of the signal.

S.i.e, please think about these: How do you perceive your purpose in life? Are you put on this earth simply to be curious? to question God's character? is there anything beyond that? Is there submission and faith from your part given what's written in the Scriptures?

As for the Abraham scenario - it's not that I'm not interested in that, but it's the same question, just a different scenario, I think. Lots of ways to get there, but Eden is a good start. (since it was, THE start!)

Actually, the story Abraham culminates in the testing of his *maturity*, a very different story than Eden. Have you considered what kind of a person Abraham was when God asked him to sacrifice Isaac? Do you think he's a beginner in faith that just barely know God? Do you think he was a so-so believer who still got swayed hearing different opinions?

I don't think so, he was the father of (by then a young man) Isaac, whom God promised. At that time Abraham had already experienced firsthand what God's character is like *many*, many times. If Abraham thought God was evil and unjust, would he believed, follow and obey God? Did God "put a gun on his head" -so to speak? No, Abraham *choose* to obey God. And Isaac *choose* to obey God to the point of him being bound by Abraham, ready to be sacrificed.

That is a picture story of what we will become, when we choose to accept our purpose in this life and obey God.

I haven't mentioned Jesus or the N.T. all that much, because that's not where I have my problems! Jesus creates little, if any, dilemma for me! I can relate to Him! I do! I consider myself a follower --- I just can't ignore this other part of me that seems very much agnostic, and that is based on the Jesus' Father - the God of the O.T. I know, I know...we can start talking about how the two of them are one in the same...but hopefully we can agree that this is an entirely other discussion that would be far longer than this thread!

To quote the Doobie Brothers: "Jesus is just allright with me!"

S.i.e, I think you realized that you have one heck of a dilemma on your hands right there
You said it yourself based on what you read in the Scriptures, Lord Jesus again, and again was recorded as saying that He and God are the same. Whoever loves God, loves Him and vice versa.

But even without that dilemma, since you trust the Lord, and recognize that He and He *alone* has saved you from a dire condition that neither of us can escape from, can you not trust Him when He said that God is good?

Can you, for *your* Lord's sake love God as He commanded you?

FYI, I am like you, I am literally mesmerized by the authority, toughness, and sheer directness of Lord Jesus. He is truly a man's man never flinching in the face of danger, challenge and temptations. I feel like hi-fiving you for saying that Jesus is alright! :shade:

And it was that day when I decided to follow Him wherever He goes, that I realize that I am not in need of anything else when I have Him in my life. That was a great moment of realization.

Now the question is, what does The Lord say about His Father? the One who sent Him?

When we consider that it is the Lord Jesus that brings OT and NT together through his work on the cross, it is not right for us to divide the single coherent message and obsess on the parts that don't sit well with us when we view those from *our* own subjective, and frankly (very) narrow views.

So -- back to choice. If I have a problem with God. If I have questions that may not find an answer...what happens? Oh...unlucky you...you get door number 2.

And you know what? No blood on His hands. Oh, how's that, you ask?

Well...God's got a perfect reason to excuse Him from that decision. I might even call it brilliant on His part. He calls it choice. As in, He gave us choice, so it's up to us. Blood off of His hands!!

Kind of like Adam and Eve. He gave them choice, right? (er...well...maybe. Uh...read the fine-print on the bottom of the ledger, and you'll find that He designed them to make such a choice as they did. Not only that, but it was, in fact, His designed plan for them to eat of the fruit. Yet, it's all good in God's mind, right?...because it was their choice!

(but, God's not psycho, no...nor schizophrenic...no. He's good, remember? Scriptures tell us so.)

Not all choices are bad for us. Think back in your childhood. If your mom offered you a plate of home-made pie with ice cream, but only if you obey what she commanded you, which is not to play with a knife that had once cut your finger.

Is that a "gun-in-your-head" scenario?
No? why not? because you know that your Mom did that because she loves you. And the reward *far* outweigh the consequences of disobedience.

The "gun-in-my-head" argument is valid but not at all conclusive when applied to God and us. Why? because it is just one scenario that we come up with. We don't have sufficient proof or base for accusing God (even if we can imagine that).

There are many other scenarios that you have chosen to exclude, including one in which God has legitimate reason that we have no way to know about, or more accurately, no business to know in the first place. Remember, He knows more than you or I (that's an extreme hyperbole on our part, btw).



S.i.e, brother, I hear you. Yes, I can sense the tension in your mind and heart. Which is not at all dissimilar to my own struggle once.

I think I have said what I need to say to you. This thread of discussion has run its course for me. I hope you will accept my (short) testimony below as a parting thought and at least keep it in your mind together with other testimonies you have heard:

Lord Jesus, our savior and King is good. That precious gift of knowledge and realization is sufficient for me to go on with my life safely entrusted in His hands.

I no longer concern myself with the things that my limited mind cannot understand today because I have lost my desire to put God's mind within my comprehension. I have lost the morbid curiosity that caused me to question His plans, His motives, His total and absolute Sovereignty. My admiration and awe for Lord Jesus has replaced those instead.

And because I know that if I accept my purpose as His creation and His child, one day I will be with Him and I will have all eternity to discuss the things I don't understand.

What is left in me is the fixation to do what Lord Jesus commissioned, to make persons around me His disciples, and to let people know how good our God is.
Before it's too late.

May you soon find peace in your understanding of Hod, brother.

 

[s.i.e.]

I asked every person about how their experiences affected their faith. Every single one testified that God had been good to them. "Without God we would never have made it".

For me, these answers were very hard to hear. I considered that these people were telling me what they thought I wanted to hear, or that they trusted in God only because the alternative - God had abandoned them - was just too terrible to consider.

But I have reflected hard on my time there, and I have concluded that what the people have said is true - God has been good to them. I may not be able to see it myself, but maybe one day I will.

thanks for sharing that Hekuran. I would process this kind of thing no differently...I agree, it boggles my mind/heart.

Yet, it doesn't seem inconsistent with what I've seen and known from any time I've been close to or brushed by similar circumstances...that people/constituencies that live in such dire circumstances don't seem to lack in faith or belief.

While troubling / confusing --- I find it encouraging, as it seems to me that faith/belief/trust can very much be independent of one's circumstances. And that's really good news!

Do you still pray?

I have found that when my thoughts and words and prayers fail me, I can often pray along with the Psalms.

Yes I do. I just rarely know what to pray for, or how to pray. For example -- while I would wish alongside you, that all the bad things that happen in a place like Zimbabwe would stop, and end --- I really don't have any conviction that this shoud be a thing that I should pray for. Or, that should even be prayed for!

Why? Because it is happening...and it is happening for a reason. Do you believe that?

In other words, it wouldn't be happening unless it was part of God's Sovereign plan, and who am I to think I should be praying to Him asking that He alter course?

I clearly think it's "bad"...as would most conscious human-beings...but that's just the point. We're human-beings, He is God -- and it must be happening for a reason, even though I don't understand it and don't like it. So...should I pray against it because I don't understand or don't like it?

I think not.

So, you can see - at least for me, that I really don't know how to pray on most anything in life right now. My prayers are very general.

 

[David777]

So true Will.

Very good reply, well thought out. I particularly liked the following:

"I no longer concern myself with the things that my limited mind cannot understand today because I have lost my desire to put God's mind within my comprehension. I have lost the morbid curiosity that caused me to question His plans, His motives, His total and absolute Sovereignty. My admiration and awe for Lord Jesus has replaced those instead."

I could not agree more, that is what happens in time. You start to realise that in Jesus all is contained. The beginning and end, the source of life itself. All questions have their answer in Jesus Christ.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Nevertheless thy will be done..Gulp!
There are safe prayers,things that you know are his will.
It's not his will that any should perish but most of the church believes people will.

I am dread to say "some will perish" lest I be found opposing God..and my own prayer.

 

[s.i.e.]

Herein is the answer to your original question s.i.e. Adam was not evil, he became evil at the point of rejection of God. Evil is in fact rejection of the creator. Satan rejected God's authority this made Satan evil. This is an exponential process, the more you reject, the more evil you become.

Good and evil are not two sides of a coin s.i.e. Evil is rejection of life itself. That is why we are having this discussion, you are resisting what the Bible clearly tells us.

This Biblical revelation is not about good and evil. It is about the rejection of Love, Jesus Christ is Love. You were created by Jesus Christ in Love, but you are fallen in disobedience.

That's helpful, David777...although I'm not sure what to do with it. But, I think you're right: as much as I would love to avoid the whole "argument" of predesination vs. free-will, I think you're right, that this is an inherent "question behind the question", that would alter my view of how, or whether, God is good.

As for the idea that Adam is/was different from us...that I'm not so sure of. It sounds like that's your idea on it, and that's fine...but I don't think we have any scriptures that would back that up, or imply it. If we assume the "choice" model, he had choice as do we. If you're implying that we (unlike Adam) are destined towards wrong-choices ("sin") because we're born into it...then it seems that you would have a belief in predestination as well. Maybe your "manifestation" of your belief in it plays out differently than the way mine does...but still, you seem to be implying a destiny that is inherent in human-beings that Adam didn't have. And I'm not so sure.

 

[s.i.e.]

S.i.e, please think about these: How do you perceive your purpose in life? Are you put on this earth simply to be curious? to question God's character? is there anything beyond that? Is there submission and faith from your part given what's written in the Scriptures?

How do I perceive purpose in life? That's a really great question to which my answer eludes me, I'm sorry to have to admit. One part of that answer is, yes, in part, I believe we are all here to question God's character. I feel sorry for those who might think that this might not be part of what we need to be sorting out, here on this earth. I think that has to be at least part of the point of going through this gauntlet that we go through here on earth. I think that's part of the question God asks of us - to come to a conclusion on who we think He is. As for submission and faith -- submit to exactly what (purpose-wise) that is written in scriptures?

S.i.e, I think you realized that you have one heck of a dilemma on your hands right there
can you not trust Him when He said that God is good?

Can you, for *your* Lord's sake love God as He commanded you?

FYI, I am like you, I am literally mesmerized by the authority, toughness, and sheer directness of Lord Jesus. He is truly a man's man never flinching in the face of danger, challenge and temptations. I feel like hi-fiving you for saying that Jesus is alright! :shade:

Hey - hi-five back at 'ya. Jesus is awesome! And words don't do justice...that's an understatement.

As for me trusting Him saying God is good...well, I guess that's what keeps me in the game at all...because I really want to believe Him when He says that. That said, IF Jesus truly is also God (i.e., the same God we see in the O.T.)....how do you reconcile the Jesus we see in the N.T. with the God of the O.T. is an absolutely relevant question, and one that is quite germane to the faith you claim to have!

When we consider that it is the Lord Jesus that brings OT and NT together through his work on the cross, it is not right for us to divide the single coherent message and obsess on the parts that don't sit well with us when we view those from *our* own subjective, and frankly (very) narrow views.

It is not right to do this? So, is it a sin, the fact that I'm even asking the question? Maybe I'm being heretical in this, yes?

So...what should I do, just "fuhgehtaboudtit" (think of a thick brooklynn accent)? How'd you do that, bro? At what point is it even honoring of God Himself to just check-in-your-brain-at-the-door and assume a sort of faith without any further questions?

I'm not so sure that honors God, myself...but maybe that's just me.

There are many other scenarios that you have chosen to exclude, including one in which God has legitimate reason that we have no way to know about, or more accurately, no business to know in the first place. Remember, He knows more than you or I

"no business knowing". There again, my questions above... I don't get why this is something that God would want us to do.

S.i.e, brother, I hear you. Yes, I can sense the tension in your mind and heart. Which is not at all dissimilar to my own struggle once.

I think I have said what I need to say to you. This thread of discussion has run its course for me.

Hey - no pressure. Fully understand if you don't care to comment back. I appreciate your thoughts, and this discussion...as it is. I also get that our exchanges have possibly run their course(s). Thanks for all this, will. Really.

I have lost my desire to put God's mind within my comprehension. I have lost the morbid curiosity that caused me to question His plans, His motives, His total and absolute Sovereignty.

mor·bid/ˈmôrbəd/Adjective

1. Characterized by or appealing to an abnormal and unhealthy interest in disturbing and unpleasant subjects, esp. death and disease.
2. Of the nature of or indicative of disease.

I'm getting here, from you, that it is wrong to ask the questions I'm asking. I'm getting here, that we should not dare to question God.

I disagree.

At the same time, I don't question His complete sovereignty to do anything and everything He wants to do.

 

[David777]

Hello s.i.e.

"As for the idea that Adam is/was different from us...that I'm not so sure of. It sounds like that's your idea on it, and that's fine...but I don't think we have any scriptures that would back that up, or imply it. If we assume the "choice" model, he had choice as do we. If you're implying that we (unlike Adam) are destined towards wrong-choices ("sin") because we're born into it...then it seems that you would have a belief in predestination as well. Maybe your "manifestation" of your belief in it plays out differently than the way mine does...but still, you seem to be implying a destiny that is inherent in human-beings that Adam didn't have. And I'm not so sure."

There is no scriptural evidence that mankind was destined to have a sinful nature. I believe in predistination, but only concerning Christ's redemptive work.

Adam did not have this corrupt nature s.i.e. Adam had pure choice to reject God's instructions.

We cannot approach the truth, we have to be drawn by the Holy Spirit. If Adam was the same in nature as us then why was he evicted from Eden? Adam was evicted due to disobedience. This is what is written. Then his nature became corrupted, he then had to work the ground to eat. I am not able to adhere to predistination in anything but that which concerns Christ.

Black stocking Calvinists believe that man's fall was predestined.
I am not a black stocking Calvinist s.i.e. There is no scripture to support predistination concerning man's nature.

God is spirit not flesh, God is not a man. Our rational mind does not peer into the nature of God. God's nature is eternal, God is not good, He is perfectly good. Like I said before s.i.e, goodness is an attribute of Love. God is defined by Love.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

"Good" is not always comfortable

Anywho...I'm curious about this question. I'm sure the resounding answer from all 'yall will be yes, absolutely, and then give me a bunch of scriptures that would prove it. That's fine. I don't mean to take away from that...but

"Is God Good?" As I thought about this thread this afternoon, the thought came to me: "How do you define 'good'?"

When I was young and my mother applied well deserved physical discipline to my rear end, I did not see it as 'good' because it was so darned uncomfortable and embarrassing. Now I know that it was good because it taught me some important life lessons. Also, though I don't recall any instances of this, I'm certain that if anyone had posed a serious threat to my personal safety and well being, they would have found my mother to be a force to be reckoned with as well. She would have vigorously defended me and she would have won the battle.

Many people who look at God through the lens of the Old Testament decide that He cannot possibly be good because of His actions there. They need to understand that He was acting in His role as our Heavenly Father, disciplining the Israelites and protecting them from their enemies.

SLE