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Is God One or is He Three?

First and the Last:

The King James Version and a few other Bibles deliberately mistranslated that verse of scripture at 1 Timothy 3:16. Notice how that same verse is translated by other Bibles.

New Living Translation
Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.



Contemporary English Version
Here is the great mystery of our religion: Christ came as a human. The Spirit proved that he pleased God, and he was seen by angels. Christ was preached to the nations. People in this world put their faith in him, and he was taken up to glory.


Weymouth New Testament
And, beyond controversy, great is the mystery of our religion-- that Christ appeared in human form, and His claims justified by the Spirit, was seen by angels and proclaimed among Gentile nations, was believed on in the world, and received up again into glory.



Amplified Bible
And great, we confess, is the mystery [the hidden truth] of godliness: He (Jesus Christ) who was revealed in human flesh, Was justified and vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.



Most of the other Bibles, such as the one quoted below, simply refer to Jesus as "He" rather than clarify by adding "(Jesus Christ)" in parenthesis as happened with the Amplified Bible.

New International Version
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.


Below is the weblink to other Bible translations of the same verse.
If we want to get technical it was the Eternal Word not Son who became flesh according to 1 John Chapter 1.
 
First and the Last:

Are you kidding me? Go back and read Numbers 23:19 where it says God does not change his mind.


If Jesus Christ were God in the flesh, that would mean that God died. If that were the case, how do you explain the following verse of scripture?

New Living Translation
"{13} And I charge you before God, who gives life to all, and before Christ Jesus, who gave a good testimony before Pontius Pilate, {14} that you obey this command without wavering. Then no one can find fault with you from now until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. {15} For, At just the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God, the King of all kings and Lord of all lords. {16} He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:13-16)


First and the Last:

Keep in mind that Jesus Christ literally died. And remember, people saw him face to face. I point that out to you so that you can see that the words that I enlarged and bolded in blue within 1 Timothy 6:16 cannot possibly be referring to Jesus Christ.

How do you explain 1 Timothy 6:16?
In addressing the question of how 1 Timothy 6:16 aligns with the Scriptures that Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh, it is crucial to understand the distinct roles and manifestations of God as presented in Scripture. The Bible declares the Oneness of God, meaning there is one God who has revealed Himself in different ways, most supremely in the person of Jesus Christ.

It is understood that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. When Jesus died on the cross, it was His human nature that experienced death, not His divine nature. The divine nature of Jesus, which is the eternal Spirit of God, cannot die. This distinction allows us to comprehend how God could experience death in His humanity while remaining eternally alive in His divinity. Therefore, the death of Jesus does not imply that the eternal God ceased to exist but that the human body of Jesus experienced death.

1 Timothy 6:13-16:"And I charge you before God, who gives life to all, and before Christ Jesus, who gave a good testimony before Pontius Pilate, that you obey this command without wavering. Then no one can find fault with you from now until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. For, At just the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God, the King of all kings and Lord of all lords. He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen."

In this passage, Paul is highlighting the transcendent and eternal nature of God. When it states that "He alone can never die," it emphasizes the immortality of God’s divine nature. While Jesus Christ, in His human form, did indeed die, His divine nature, which is one with the Father, did not and cannot die. The passage reflects the profound mystery of the incarnation, where God manifested in flesh experienced human death while His divine essence remained immortal.

Indeed, Jesus Christ, in His humanity, experienced death and was seen by many. However, Scripture holds that Jesus' divine nature is fully God, who dwells in unapproachable light and is immortal. The passage in 1 Timothy 6:16 speaks to the incomprehensible and immortal nature of God, which aligns with the belief that while Jesus' humanity was visible and subject to death, His divinity remains unseen, eternal, and undying. This duality is central to understanding the incarnation: Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), fully God and fully man.

1 Timothy 6:16 does not contradict the Oneness of God but rather complements it by distinguishing between the humanity and divinity of Jesus Christ. The passage acknowledges the eternal, immortal nature of God, while the New Testament testifies to Jesus Christ as the manifestation of that same God in the flesh.
 
I appreciate your willingness to engage in this discussion. The understanding that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh aligns with the totality of Scripture when viewed through the lens of God's redemptive plan. In Exodus 33:20, God indeed declares to Moses, "You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live." This statement emphasizes the holiness and glory of God in His full divine essence, which is beyond human capacity to behold and survive. However, in the incarnation, God, in His infinite wisdom and love, veiled His divine glory in human flesh. In Jesus, we see God in a form we can comprehend and relate to, without experiencing the full overwhelming presence of His deity. This does not negate the truth of God’s words to Moses but rather demonstrates His desire to make Himself accessible to humanity and redeem us through a personal relationship.

Your reference to Numbers 23:19 is important: "God is not a man, so He does not lie. He is not human, so He does not change His mind." This verse underscores God's immutable nature and His truthfulness. It is crucial to understand that the incarnation does not imply a change in God's nature or mind. Rather, it reflects the eternal plan of God to redeem humanity. The phrase "God is not a man" in Numbers speaks to God's inherent divinity and trustworthiness compared to fallible humanity. When Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, it was not that God changed His mind or nature, but that He manifested His preordained plan of salvation. The divine nature of Jesus was united with human nature, allowing Him to fully experience and redeem humanity while remaining fully God. Thus, God did not become a man in the sense of altering His divine essence, but He took on human nature to fulfill His eternal purpose.

Regarding Exodus 33:20, where God tells Moses, "You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live," it is essential to recognize that this statement reveals the overwhelming holiness of God's full presence. God did not lie; rather, He made a profound truth known about the nature of His glory. In Jesus Christ, God made a way for humanity to see and know Him without being consumed by His glory. Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), and in Him, the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form (Colossians 2:9). This incarnation was not a contradiction but a divine mystery (1 Timothy 3:16, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."), where God’s infinite glory was veiled in human flesh, allowing humanity to experience His presence and truth in a manner that brings life rather than death. Therefore, the incarnation of Jesus Christ does not imply any falsehood or change in God's nature; instead, it reveals the depth of His love and the fulfillment of His redemptive plan.

We cannot escape Scripture.
First and the Last:

I already showed you, at post 98, several Bibles that correctly rendered the scripture at 1 Timothy 3:16. You are quoting from the King James Version, which was translated by Trinitarians. The same is true for most of the Bible translations that exist today. Trinitarian translators deliberately mistranslated words so that they could make it appear that the Bible supports the Trinity doctrine. But those attempts fail when people pay attention to context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters).


Notice part of the context to 1 Timothy 3:16. Remember, context refers to surrounding words, verses, and chapters. So we will use words from another chapter within the very same book of 1 Timothy. Notice the quotation below which is quoted from the King James Version.

King James Bible (1 Timothy 6:13-16)
"{13} I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; {14} That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: {15} Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; {16} Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.



Now, let's break this down, particularly 1 Timothy 6:16, which is part of the context to 1 Timothy 3:16. We will do the break down from New Living Translation, which is the Bible that is being used on this website.

1. First Timothy chapter six at verse 13 identifies the subject "God" (the Father) as the person that is being described in verse 16.

2. (a) "He alone can never die," (only hath immortality)
(b) "he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him." ( dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto)
(c) "No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will." (whom no man hath seen, nor can see)


Scripture at 1 Timothy 6:16 says God alone can never die because he "only hath immortality." Scripture says Jesus was dead for three days. Not only that, Jesus is referred to as "begotten" at John 3:16 and elsewhere in the New Testament. "Begotten" means he was created and therefore he had a beginning. An immortal person does not have a beginning and cannot die.

Scripture at 1 Timothy 6:16 also says "no man hath seen, nor can see" God. Jesus Christ was seen by thousands of people. That's the context that you are deliberately ignoring. Scripture does not contradict itself. Remember what is stated at 2 Timothy 3:16.

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,"

Alter2Ego
 
I already showed you, at post 98, several Bibles that correctly rendered the scripture at 1 Timothy 3:16. You are quoting from the King James Version, which was translated by Trinitarians. The same is true for most of the Bible translations that exist today. Trinitarian translators deliberately mistranslated words so that they could make it appear that the Bible supports the Trinity doctrine.
I know what you mean check this out. These all are verifiable documentation with source citation included. Most works can be looked up here Wayback Machine
There maybe a few things I say that could be questionable. However, I assure you every quote has its source cited and can easily be found. All facts. We all agree every believer needs to seek the truth or share it with others.

“And Jesus came, and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Goe ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.“ {Matthew 28:18-20}

In the book of Acts 2:38, the evangelist Luke described the same statement of Jesus from Matthew 28:19.20. But in Acts 1:8 Jesus calls us to proclaim His truth to all nations, without any mention of baptism in the name of the Trinity:

„But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.“ {Acts 1:8}

Why does this difference exist? Because This verse (Matthew 28:18-20) was changed in the year 325 A.D. We know the following facts: the doctrine of the Trinity” was the basis of many pagan religions. During the council in Nicea in 325 A.D., Emperor Constantine ordered that an ecumenical Bible be compiled . He entrusted this task to the leading Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, who implemented what Bishop Origen had tried earlier but without success. Interestingly, Bishop Eusebius quoted the above verse differently 17 times in his works before Nicea here are a few:

“Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after His victory over death, he spoke the word to His followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in My name.” {Eusebius: Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8}

“But while the disciples of Jesus were most likely either saying thus, or thinking thus, the Master solved their difficulties, by the addition of one phrase, saying they should triumph “In MY NAME.” And the power of His name being so great, that the apostle says: “God has given Him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,” He shewed the virtue of the power in His Name concealed from the crowd when He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name.” He also most accurately forecasts the future when He says: “for this gospel must first be preached to all the world, for a witness to all nations.” {Eusebius: Proof of the Gospel, Book III, ch. 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157}.

“Who said to them: ́Make disciples of all the nations in My Name. ́” {Eusebius: Proof of the Gospel, Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159}

“Relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in My name.” {Eusebius: Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, (about the Jewish persecution of early Christians)}

“With one word and voice, He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” {Eusebius: Proof of the Gospel, Book III, ch 6, 132 (a), p. 152}

It is noteworthy that after the introduction of the Trinity in 325 AD, Eusebius altered the form of certain verses, adopting the version we have today in his writings. Throughout the entire Bible, baptism is consistently described as being performed 'in the name of Jesus.' The true Bible does not provide conflicting sets of instructions, yet Matthew 28:19 seems to directly conflict with all other baptismal references. This discrepancy is strong evidence of potential falsification, as the two versions are fundamentally opposed and cannot coexist without contradiction. God never provides conflicting instructions!

“When they heard this, they were baptised in the Name of the Lord Jesus.“ {Acts 19:5}

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the Name of Jesus Christ, they were baptised, both men and women. ́” {Acts 8:12}

“For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptised in the Name of the Lord Jesus“. {Acts 8:16}

“And he commanded them to be baptised in the Name of the Lord“. {Acts 10:48}

“For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ, have put on Christ.“ {Galatians 3:27}

Whose name do we call at baptism in order to be washed from sin?

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the holy Ghost.“ {Acts 2:38}

“And now, why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.“ {Acts 22:16}

Is there any other name under heaven besides Jesus who can save us?

“He that believeth and is baptised, shall be saved, but he that believeth not, shall be damned.“ {Mark 16:16}

Actually, baptism and immersion in the water are a symbol of His death, His lying in the grave, and His resurrection. ONLY Jesus died, and through baptism, we show acceptance of His sacrifice for us and thereby become Christians.

-The immersion in the water symbolises the death of Jesus on the cross

-The short stay in the water symbolises the time of Jesus in the grave

-The emergence from the water symbolises the resurrection of Jesus

The apostle Paul clearly emphasises that baptism is only in the name of Jesus and that this is directly connected with the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross:

“Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?” {1 Corinthians 1:13}

“Know ye not, that so many of vs as were baptised into Jesus Christ, were baptised into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father: even so wee also should walk in newness of life” {Romans 6:3}

“Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead.“ {Colossians 2:12}

Below is the excerpt from Shem Tob’s MSS Hebrew Matthew Gospel, Matthew 28th chapter, which comes from a book by Dr. George Howard, a specialist in the Hebrew language. The original of this manuscript is in the Jewish Theological Seminary of America in New York. This Gospel was saved by Hebrews during the first century and was discovered in the 14th century. In the 14th century, there was no discussion of the Trinity! And in this old original manuscript of the Gospel, Matthew 28:19, there is no trinitarian form of baptism, there is no statement by Jesus in this regard. Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew and not in Greek, as most theologians claim today:

“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church.” {Irenaeus in the second century: Adv. Haer. 3.1.1}

18. Jesus drew near to them and said to them: To Me has been given all power in heaven and earth.

19. Go

20. and (teach) them to carry out all the things which I have commanded you forever.

The same is also stated in the other 3 Bible translations:

“Then, coming toward them, Jesus spoke, saying, ‘All power has been given me in heaven and on earth. So, go and make disciples in all nations IN MY NAME, teaching them to obey all the things that I commanded you. And [Look!] I’ll be with you every day until the end of the age.“ {Matthew 28:18-20} Bible 2001

“Jesus approached and said to them, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Consequently, when you go, disciple all nationalities IN MY NAME. Teach them to keep everything I commanded you to do. Understand this: I am with you every day until the consummation of the age!“ {Matthew 28:18-20} MIT – Idiomatic EN – 2006

“Yeshua [God is Salvation] drew near to them and said to them: “All power has been given to Me in heaven and earth”. “Go and make disciples, of all the nations, to believe IN MY NAME” “and teach them to observe all the words which I have commanded you, forever” {Matthew 28:18-20} New Messianic Version Bible

Today’s Bible says that the apostles should go and all should baptise in the name of the Father, Son, and holy Spirit, which is a contradiction of the rest of the New Testament, where the apostles were all exclusively baptised in the name of Jesus! The true Bible can never contradict itself! The Catholic Church, which proudly proclaimed a change in the Sabbath, confirms itself that it changed Matthew 28:19

“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.“ {Britannica Encyclopedia, 11th Edition, Volume 3, page 365}
 
Scripture at 1 Timothy 6:16 also says "no man hath seen, nor can see" God. Jesus Christ was seen by thousands of people. That's the context that you are deliberately ignoring. Scripture does not contradict itself. Remember what is stated at 2 Timothy 3:16.
I hope this clears things up a bit.

Your concern about understanding the nature of God and the visibility of Jesus Christ is very important. Indeed, 1 Timothy 6:16 declares that God "dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see," emphasizing God's transcendent and invisible nature. On the other hand, Jesus Christ, who is God manifest in the flesh, was indeed seen by thousands of people. This apparent paradox is harmonized beautifully in the Oneness understanding of God.

The scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16 reminds us that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." This means that the Bible, as the inspired Word of God, does not contradict itself but reveals profound truths that require spiritual discernment. John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Here, John explains that the invisible God has been revealed to us in the person of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 describes Jesus as "the image of the invisible God," indicating that while God in His pure, divine essence is unseen and unseeable, He has made Himself known to us through Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself said in John 14:9, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father." This does not mean that Jesus is a separate being from God but that He is the visible manifestation of the one true God.

Jesus is fully God and fully man. In His humanity, He was visible and walked among us. In His divinity, He embodies the fullness of the invisible God. This duality is a mystery of our faith, revealing the depth of God's love in making Himself accessible to us through Jesus Christ. Therefore, there is no contradiction, but rather a profound revelation of God's nature and His desire to be known by His creation. Let us embrace this truth and continue to seek understanding through prayer and study of the Scriptures.
 
We will do the break down from New Living Translation, which is the Bible that is being used on this website.
Actually, the ESV (English Standard Version) is the default Bible on Talk Jesus.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
 
First and the Last:

I already showed you, at post 98, several Bibles that correctly rendered the scripture at 1 Timothy 3:16. You are quoting from the King James Version, which was translated by Trinitarians. The same is true for most of the Bible translations that exist today. Trinitarian translators deliberately mistranslated words so that they could make it appear that the Bible supports the Trinity doctrine. But those attempts fail when people pay attention to context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters).


Notice part of the context to 1 Timothy 3:16. Remember, context refers to surrounding words, verses, and chapters. So we will use words from another chapter within the very same book of 1 Timothy. Notice the quotation below which is quoted from the King James Version.

King James Bible (1 Timothy 6:13-16)
"{13} I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; {14} That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: {15} Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; {16} Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.



Now, let's break this down, particularly 1 Timothy 6:16, which is part of the context to 1 Timothy 3:16. We will do the break down from New Living Translation, which is the Bible that is being used on this website.

1. First Timothy chapter six at verse 13 identifies the subject "God" (the Father) as the person that is being described in verse 16.

2. (a) "He alone can never die," (only hath immortality)
(b) "he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him." ( dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto)
(c) "No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will." (whom no man hath seen, nor can see)


Scripture at 1 Timothy 6:16 says God alone can never die because he "only hath immortality." Scripture says Jesus was dead for three days. Not only that, Jesus is referred to as "begotten" at John 3:16 and elsewhere in the New Testament. "Begotten" means he was created and therefore he had a beginning. An immortal person does not have a beginning and cannot die.

Scripture at 1 Timothy 6:16 also says "no man hath seen, nor can see" God. Jesus Christ was seen by thousands of people. That's the context that you are deliberately ignoring. Scripture does not contradict itself. Remember what is stated at 2 Timothy 3:16.

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,"

Alter2Ego
Reading your reaction here I feel such pain in my heart for you. You will instantly reject the truth of these words and it might take years for this to take hold but the God you serve is so much smaller than the One Elohim.

Our Elohim will never sweat in the effort required to keep the translation of His Word accurate. If He is so small as to be unable to indwell Linguists to convert the scriptures into true renderings of the ancient scrolls He is not powerful enough to have spoken Creation into being. Seeing as how He did, He has also indwelt many of His creations with the Ruah (Holy Spirit) that they, through His Wisdom succeed in completing His work.
 
to keep the translation of His Word accurate.
Mortal man is capable of making mistakes in translation or purposely inserting something that shouldn't be there, Here is an example with several cited sources.

“Jesus approached and said to them, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Consequently, when you go, disciple all nationalities IN MY NAME. Teach them to keep everything I commanded you to do. Understand this: I am with you every day until the consummation of the age!“ {Matthew 28:18-20} MIT – Idiomatic EN – 2006

“Yeshua [God is Salvation] drew near to them and said to them: “All power has been given to Me in heaven and earth”. “Go and make disciples, of all the nations, to believe IN MY NAME” “and teach them to observe all the words which I have commanded you, forever” {Matthew 28:18-20} New Messianic Version Bible

Today’s Bible says that the apostles should go and all should baptise in the name of the Father, Son, and holy Spirit, which is a contradiction of the rest of the New Testament, where the apostles were all exclusively baptised in the name of Jesus! The true Bible can never contradict itself! The Catholic Church, which proudly proclaimed a change in the Sabbath, confirms itself that it changed Matthew 28:19

“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.“ {Britannica Encyclopedia, 11th Edition, Volume 3, page 365}
 
Mortal man is capable of making mistakes in translation or purposely inserting something that shouldn't be there, Here is an example with several cited sources.

“Jesus approached and said to them, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Consequently, when you go, disciple all nationalities IN MY NAME. Teach them to keep everything I commanded you to do. Understand this: I am with you every day until the consummation of the age!“ {Matthew 28:18-20} MIT – Idiomatic EN – 2006

“Yeshua [God is Salvation] drew near to them and said to them: “All power has been given to Me in heaven and earth”. “Go and make disciples, of all the nations, to believe IN MY NAME” “and teach them to observe all the words which I have commanded you, forever” {Matthew 28:18-20} New Messianic Version Bible

Today’s Bible says that the apostles should go and all should baptise in the name of the Father, Son, and holy Spirit, which is a contradiction of the rest of the New Testament, where the apostles were all exclusively baptised in the name of Jesus! The true Bible can never contradict itself! The Catholic Church, which proudly proclaimed a change in the Sabbath, confirms itself that it changed Matthew 28:19

“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.“ {Britannica Encyclopedia, 11th Edition, Volume 3, page 365}
The original manuscripts do not contradict themselves. Neither do the translations if one has the presence of the Ruah explaining the Word to them. i.e. When I tried to read thue scriptures before I was Saved and Indwelt that Book was full of contradictions and gibberish to me. The moment Ruah took over I had an overwhelming desire to read scripture and it read with perfect logic.

Yes, I see your posts.
 
Is God absolutely monotheistic, inseparably and numerically One or is He three separate distinct persons?

Explain to me how, if God is not one according to the trinity, He is not 'evil and twisted' for getting a random person called Jesus to die for the sins of mankind.

Did Jesus draw the shortest straw?
 
Explain to me how, if God is not one according to the trinity, He is not 'evil and twisted' for getting a random person called Jesus to die for the sins of mankind.

Did Jesus draw the shortest straw?
The idea that God would send a "random person" to die for humanity’s sins is inconsistent with the biblical belief. Jesus Christ is not a separate person but God Himself manifested in the flesh (John 1:1, 14). This means that God did not send another being to suffer and die; He came Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 states that God purchased the church with His own blood, underscoring that the sacrifice was God's personal act of love. By taking on human form and enduring the cross, God demonstrated His profound love and commitment to redeeming humanity. This self-sacrifice highlights God’s ultimate act of love, far from being "evil and twisted."

The notion of Jesus "drawing the shortest straw" misinterprets His identity and mission. Jesus Christ is God incarnate, not a separate entity who was chosen or forced into suffering. Philippians 2:6-8 explains that Jesus, "being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." This passage shows that the decision to endure the cross was a voluntary, loving act by God Himself. Jesus’ sacrifice was not a reluctant obligation but a deliberate and loving plan of God to redeem humanity. This reveals the depth of God's love and His proactive role in our salvation, emphasizing that Jesus' sacrifice was a purposeful and willing act of God’s own will.
 
Explain to me how, if God is not one according to the trinity
From a natural perspective, the use of terms like "distinct" and "separate" to describe the persons of the Trinity can indeed be seen as implying division within the one God. The Bible emphasizes the absolute oneness of God, rejecting any notion of division or plurality in the Godhead.

In Trinitarian theology, the terms "distinct" and "separate" are used to describe the personal relationships within the Godhead—the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are seen as distinct persons, each fully God, sharing one divine essence. However, the natural perspective maintains that this understanding introduces a form of division that is inconsistent with the biblical revelation of God's oneness.

The Biblical belief is that God is a singular, indivisible being who has manifested Himself in different ways throughout history—primarily as the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit in regeneration and sanctification. Emphasizing that Jesus Christ is the full and complete manifestation of the one true God.

From a natural view, the Trinitarian terms "distinct" and "separate" can be seen as problematic because they suggest multiple centers of consciousness or multiple "selves" within God, which can be interpreted as dividing the unity of God. One God means that God is one person with one consciousness, and any manifestations or roles He takes on are expressions of His singular divine essence, not separate persons within a Godhead.
 
I know what you mean check this out. These all are verifiable documentation with source citation included. Most works can be looked up here Wayback Machine
There maybe a few things I say that could be questionable. However, I assure you every quote has its source cited and can easily be found. All facts. We all agree every believer needs to seek the truth or share it with others.

“And Jesus came, and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Goe ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptising them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.“ {Matthew 28:18-20}

In the book of Acts 2:38, the evangelist Luke described the same statement of Jesus from Matthew 28:19.20. But in Acts 1:8 Jesus calls us to proclaim His truth to all nations, without any mention of baptism in the name of the Trinity:

„But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.“ {Acts 1:8}

Why does this difference exist? Because This verse (Matthew 28:18-20) was changed in the year 325 A.D. We know the following facts: the doctrine of the Trinity” was the basis of many pagan religions. During the council in Nicea in 325 A.D., Emperor Constantine ordered that an ecumenical Bible be compiled . He entrusted this task to the leading Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, who implemented what Bishop Origen had tried earlier but without success. Interestingly, Bishop Eusebius quoted the above verse differently 17 times in his works before Nicea here are a few:

“Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after His victory over death, he spoke the word to His followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in My name.” {Eusebius: Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8}

“But while the disciples of Jesus were most likely either saying thus, or thinking thus, the Master solved their difficulties, by the addition of one phrase, saying they should triumph “In MY NAME.” And the power of His name being so great, that the apostle says: “God has given Him a name which is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth,” He shewed the virtue of the power in His Name concealed from the crowd when He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name.” He also most accurately forecasts the future when He says: “for this gospel must first be preached to all the world, for a witness to all nations.” {Eusebius: Proof of the Gospel, Book III, ch. 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157}.

“Who said to them: ́Make disciples of all the nations in My Name. ́” {Eusebius: Proof of the Gospel, Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159}

“Relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in My name.” {Eusebius: Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, (about the Jewish persecution of early Christians)}

“With one word and voice, He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” {Eusebius: Proof of the Gospel, Book III, ch 6, 132 (a), p. 152}

It is noteworthy that after the introduction of the Trinity in 325 AD, Eusebius altered the form of certain verses, adopting the version we have today in his writings. Throughout the entire Bible, baptism is consistently described as being performed 'in the name of Jesus.' The true Bible does not provide conflicting sets of instructions, yet Matthew 28:19 seems to directly conflict with all other baptismal references. This discrepancy is strong evidence of potential falsification, as the two versions are fundamentally opposed and cannot coexist without contradiction. God never provides conflicting instructions!

“When they heard this, they were baptised in the Name of the Lord Jesus.“ {Acts 19:5}

“But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the Name of Jesus Christ, they were baptised, both men and women. ́” {Acts 8:12}

“For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptised in the Name of the Lord Jesus“. {Acts 8:16}

“And he commanded them to be baptised in the Name of the Lord“. {Acts 10:48}

“For as many of you as have been baptised into Christ, have put on Christ.“ {Galatians 3:27}

Whose name do we call at baptism in order to be washed from sin?

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the holy Ghost.“ {Acts 2:38}

“And now, why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.“ {Acts 22:16}

Is there any other name under heaven besides Jesus who can save us?

“He that believeth and is baptised, shall be saved, but he that believeth not, shall be damned.“ {Mark 16:16}

Actually, baptism and immersion in the water are a symbol of His death, His lying in the grave, and His resurrection. ONLY Jesus died, and through baptism, we show acceptance of His sacrifice for us and thereby become Christians.

-The immersion in the water symbolises the death of Jesus on the cross

-The short stay in the water symbolises the time of Jesus in the grave

-The emergence from the water symbolises the resurrection of Jesus

The apostle Paul clearly emphasises that baptism is only in the name of Jesus and that this is directly connected with the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross:

“Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptised in the name of Paul?” {1 Corinthians 1:13}

“Know ye not, that so many of vs as were baptised into Jesus Christ, were baptised into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father: even so wee also should walk in newness of life” {Romans 6:3}

“Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead.“ {Colossians 2:12}

Below is the excerpt from Shem Tob’s MSS Hebrew Matthew Gospel, Matthew 28th chapter, which comes from a book by Dr. George Howard, a specialist in the Hebrew language. The original of this manuscript is in the Jewish Theological Seminary of America in New York. This Gospel was saved by Hebrews during the first century and was discovered in the 14th century. In the 14th century, there was no discussion of the Trinity! And in this old original manuscript of the Gospel, Matthew 28:19, there is no trinitarian form of baptism, there is no statement by Jesus in this regard. Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew and not in Greek, as most theologians claim today:

“Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome and laying the foundations of the church.” {Irenaeus in the second century: Adv. Haer. 3.1.1}

18. Jesus drew near to them and said to them: To Me has been given all power in heaven and earth.

19. Go

20. and (teach) them to carry out all the things which I have commanded you forever.

The same is also stated in the other 3 Bible translations:

“Then, coming toward them, Jesus spoke, saying, ‘All power has been given me in heaven and on earth. So, go and make disciples in all nations IN MY NAME, teaching them to obey all the things that I commanded you. And [Look!] I’ll be with you every day until the end of the age.“ {Matthew 28:18-20} Bible 2001

“Jesus approached and said to them, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Consequently, when you go, disciple all nationalities IN MY NAME. Teach them to keep everything I commanded you to do. Understand this: I am with you every day until the consummation of the age!“ {Matthew 28:18-20} MIT – Idiomatic EN – 2006

“Yeshua [God is Salvation] drew near to them and said to them: “All power has been given to Me in heaven and earth”. “Go and make disciples, of all the nations, to believe IN MY NAME” “and teach them to observe all the words which I have commanded you, forever” {Matthew 28:18-20} New Messianic Version Bible

Today’s Bible says that the apostles should go and all should baptise in the name of the Father, Son, and holy Spirit, which is a contradiction of the rest of the New Testament, where the apostles were all exclusively baptised in the name of Jesus! The true Bible can never contradict itself! The Catholic Church, which proudly proclaimed a change in the Sabbath, confirms itself that it changed Matthew 28:19

“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.“ {Britannica Encyclopedia, 11th Edition, Volume 3, page 365}
First and the Last:

You are resorting to a wall of text. Who do you think has the time to read that? That's known as Elephant Hurling. It indicates the poster is not interested in reasoning on the scriptures and instead wants to overwhelm the other person that he views as an opponent.


Definition of "Elephant Hurling":
Elephant hurling
is a debate tactic in which a debater will refer to a large body of evidence which supposedly supports the debater's arguments, but without demonstrating that all the evidence does indeed support the argument.

I'm not surprised that you dodged every single question I asked you and that you ignored every single scripture that contradict your belief.


Since you are not willing to reason on the scriptures, this conversation is over.
 
First and the Last:

You are resorting to a wall of text. Who do you think has the time to read that? That's known as Elephant Hurling. It indicates the poster is not interested in reasoning on the scriptures and instead wants to overwhelm the other person that he views as an opponent.


Definition of "Elephant Hurling":
Elephant hurling
is a debate tactic in which a debater will refer to a large body of evidence which supposedly supports the debater's arguments, but without demonstrating that all the evidence does indeed support the argument.

I'm not surprised that you dodged every single question I asked you and that you ignored every single scripture that contradict your belief.


Since you are not willing to reason on the scriptures, this conversation is over.
I understand that the length of my initial response may have been overwhelming, and I appreciate your feedback. It was not my intention to "elephant hurl" or to avoid engaging in meaningful dialogue. Rather, I aimed to provide thorough documentation and evidence for the points I was making, in the hope of fostering a well-informed discussion. I realize now that a more concise approach would be more respectful of your time and more effective in promoting understanding. Let's focus on key points and specific scriptures to ensure our conversation remains productive and respectful.

I'm truly sorry if it seemed like I was dodging your questions or ignoring scriptures that contradict my beliefs. My intention is to engage in an honest and open discussion about our interpretations of scripture. I believe that discussing differences in belief respectfully is crucial for mutual understanding. If there are specific questions or scriptures you'd like me to address, please let me know, and I will do my best to respond directly and thoughtfully to each one. My goal is to seek the truth together and to share it in a spirit of love and respect.

The extensive citations I included were meant to support my argument with historical and textual evidence to your statement "Trinitarian translators deliberately mistranslated words so that they could make it appear that the Bible supports the Trinity doctrine." I understand now that presenting such a large amount of information at once can be counterproductive. In future discussions, I will strive to present my points more succinctly and provide references in a way that is easy to follow. Our shared goal is to understand God's Word more deeply, and I believe that concise, clear communication is key to achieving that.

Let's take a step back and address your questions and scriptures one by one. I'm here to listen and to share what I believe based on my understanding of scripture, but always with an open heart and mind. If you have specific questions or scriptures you feel are being overlooked, please bring them up. I am committed to a respectful and meaningful dialogue where we can both learn and grow in our understanding of God’s Word.
 
Actually, the ESV (English Standard Version) is the default Bible on Talk Jesus.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
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Christ4Ever:

Really? So how is it that whenever I hover my mouse over a scripture at this website, it takes me to NLT = New Living Translation?
 
Christ4Ever:

Really? So how is it that whenever I hover my mouse over a scripture at this website, it takes me to NLT = New Living Translation?
Thanks for that info. Strange.
I'll let the Administrator know. Maybe something behind the scenes is affecting what each person sees if a Translation designation is not added after the verse.
That being the case know that different translations for the time being are the order of the day, and not just NLT, or ESV! :)

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
 
Thanks for that info. Strange.
I'll let the Administrator know. Maybe something behind the scenes is affecting what each person sees if a Translation designation is not added after the verse.
That being the case know that different translations for the time being are the order of the day, and not just NLT, or ESV! :)

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
Christ4Ever:

I usually quote from various translations, so long as they do not use words that are fabrications or just plain manipulation of text. One must keep in mind that many of the people who translated the various Bible versions were prone to insert their personal philosophies into their translations. They did that to make it appear that the Bible supports whatever it is the particular translators believe.

Alter2Ego
 
Christ4Ever:

They did that to make it appear that the Bible supports whatever it is the particular translators believe.

Alter2Ego
Yeah I have sufficient proof of that but would get me banned for sure, even though all sources are cited, well researched, and verifiably documented.
 
Christ4Ever:

I usually quote from various translations, so long as they do not use words that are fabrications or just plain manipulation of text. One must keep in mind that many of the people who translated the various Bible versions were prone to insert their personal philosophies into their translations. They did that to make it appear that the Bible supports whatever it is the particular translators believe.

Alter2Ego
Which means context, context, context. :)
As far as translations, and any preexisting bias held by the translators, we must leave it in the hand of God to judge their handling of His Word. Which to me is similar to the handling of the Ark of the Covenant in the OT. What might seem wrong to us, can be right with God, and vice versa. Unless, they are taken out of not only context, but existing manuscripts, as well as the language roots used during the time of the original autographs which we only have copies of.

Unless we ourselves are experts in linguistics of the age of their revelation and communication, we can only go by what others say is the truth of the matter in handling said translations provided to us, by brethren we assume were moved/guided by the Holy Spirit to undergo such works. In retrospect we can agree that within certain instances, there could have been failings in the individuals doing such translations but can for the most part exclude the bias when the increase (findings) of manuscripts have occurred over the time since the original project was started, keeping contextual support as their reasoning and not necessarily a personal bias or philosophical belief for any error imagined or not, except in certain project instances that are not considered translations at all, i.e. parallel Bibles, Message etc.

We can look to the "who" initiated the translations, as reasoning for believing a bias involved, which is valid reasoning to have, but again, except in the openings of most Bibles, that usually explains the reasoning for the translation, who has studied/investigated these origins? We of course can assume denominational concerns. i.e. New World Translation, and additional helps which may be considered even on par with scripture i.e. Book of Mormon (BOM), which would lead us to question the denominationalism as a concern, and indeed should question the book as a whole when considering translations. Again, we can speak of our doubt, but ultimately it will be judged by God the handling of His Word.

So, saying, I have no problem with the KJV, but it too can be questionable in translation, as I can dare say could any other translation. However, I would take care in calling out bias, corruption of God's Word, in translating or attributing it to another's understanding, because what can only be understood rightly by the reader, through the Holy Spirit is what is paramount. Won't you say even more so than linguistic translation acumen, which many profess to have?

In final, we hope that the Holy Spirit moved those who translated the different translations, to provide the readers, us, what God wants us to know is right and true according to Him, and not our own reasoning outside of His guidance in and through the Holy Spirit.

So, arguing doctrinal issues, and hanging your hat on the belief of an improper translation of a word here or there while still being understood in context, is shaky ground moving forward.

My apologies for these extending thoughts separate from the subject of a thread that has no place on Talk Jesus.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><
 
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