Is Hell just separation from God or a place of horrendous eternal punishment as the Bible states?

[Victor Van Heerden]

Hell will be a place of 1. an initial punishment according to your sin and then 2. a punishment of eternal separation because you are sold out to sin.

1. God's does not change Mal 3:6. His judgement on the wicked will at worst return to what it was under the Mosaic law. Exo 21:23-25 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

We know that punishments will differ from person to person. Many verses speak to this. One popular example is in Matt 10:14-15 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

2. Eternal separation Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

If any unbeliever really found himself in Gehenna he would instantly become a believer. There are no atheists or unbelievers in hell . Just believers in God and Jesus. The first second in hell will convert the most harden sinner. There would be no doubt, ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[Bendito]

If any unbeliever really found himself in Gehenna he would instantly become a believer. There are no atheists or unbelievers in hell . Just believers in God and Jesus. The first second in hell will convert the most harden sinner. There would be no doubt, ifs, ands, or buts.

This may be so, but there is still no exit from there.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

This may be so, but there is still no exit from there.

Exactly. And the reason why most Christians do not really believe because if they did they would evangelise till they drop in order to send people to heaven and not hell.

 

[Sue D.]

Gods' Word tells us that there Will be a day of judgement -- Every knee will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord / acknowledge that God Does exist. But everyone's 'fate' will already have been set --No reconsidering. And Then everyone will be sent to 'where ever' for eternity. Either heaven or hell.

Unfortunately -- as much as we'd Like to be able to change the eternity destiny of our loved ones' , friends, etc. Their salvation is between them and God.

Yes, we Do need to be evangelizing -- but it's the Holy Spirit who convicts and the individual who accepts or rejects.

No one wants to have to accept the reality of Eternal suffering. In our norm -- fire kills and destroys -- and cremation leaves only ashes. So the concept of Eternal fire and existing in that environment Forever almost seems impossible. And besides -- the lake of fire and brimstone is only meant for satan and the beast and false prophet. The cross of Christ is available to everyone else.

@KingJ -- the subject of 'free will'. Yes, we Do have choice -- but God is the Only One / entity/ who has All Knowledge. He, alone already knows -- as known from the beginning who will and will Not accept His salvation. He , alone, knows who will do what With 'free will'.

 

[Dovegiven]

The New Jerusalem does indeed have physical measurements...

Rev 21:10; And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11; having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
Rev 21:12; It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
Rev 21:13; There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
Rev 21:14; And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15; The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall.
Rev 21:16; The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.
Rev 21:17; And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.

However given how much of the earth's surface is covered with water currently, and the height of the New Jerusalem ( approx 1,450 miles) or about 3,375,000,000 cubic miles.

All of the continents together (not counting Antartica) would be around 55,000,000 square miles.

Mighty large place! Seeing there are 12 floors, the total surface area, excluding any mountains, there's about 27 million sq, miles, which is about 8.7 times larger than the contiguous USA states. Who would want to tinker around about making it to Heaven?

 

[Bendito]

Mighty large place! Seeing there are 12 floors, the total surface area, excluding any mountains, there's about 27 million sq, miles, which is about 8.7 times larger than the contiguous USA states. Who would want to tinker around about making it to Heaven?

New Jerusalem will not be in that location, over the old Jerusalem forever....Just for the millenium.

 

[Dovegiven]

The first century rabbinic view of Gehenna seems similar to the later Catholic doctrine of Purgatory:
(a) The ancient Jewish sages apply a saying of rabbi Jose ben Johanan of Jerusalem from the 2nd century BC to a postmortem Gehenna (M. Aboth 1:5).
(b) Rabbi Akiba began his rabbinic studies around 75 AD and was born prior the Jewish revolt in 66-70 AD: He teaches that Gehenna is a postmortem Hell to which the unrighteous are confined for 12 months: “The judgment of the unrighteous in Gehenna shall endure 12 months (M. Eduyoth 2:10).”

Jesus' view of Gehenna is also similar to Purgatory because His view of Gehenna must be understood as akin to a debtor's prison, from which it is possible to gain release. In His parable of the 2 debtors, Jesus uses a prison as an image of Hell, as is common is the Judaism of late antiquity: "Then in anger his lord handed him over to be tortured UNTIL HE WOULD PAY ALL HIS DEBT (Matthew 18:34)." The implication is that the debt of sin can potentially be either expiated through suffering or paid through subjection to a purifying fire. Thus, Jesus uses finite imagery to depict a limited sojourn in Gehenna for many: "The servant who did not know [any better], but did what deserved a beating shall be beaten with few stripes. "For rom everyone to whom much has been given much will be required (Luke 12:48).." The image of "few stripes" implies a limited duration and hence ultimate release.
Jesus' use of "aionios" (generally translated "eternal") to depict the duration of postmortem punishment is the major obstacle to my claim that Jesus basically embraces a rabbinic-like view of Gehenna. But this obstacle loses its force once it is recognized that both in Greek (aionios) and Hebrew (olam) often translated "eternal" om fact need only mean "for a long time."

The Greek for the time period is a finite measure, like a season, seasons, times, But in
2 Peter 2:17 (KJV)
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

"for ever" is Greek aion, typically translated "ever", "non-ending", world ages (eons), predominantly indicating an eternal period outside of time itself, assuming the Greek could handle such a measure of infinity.

 

[Dovegiven]

New Jerusalem will not be in that location, over the old Jerusalem forever....Just for the millenium.

A huge cubic city of gold large enough to block out the sun, halting production of crops for a thousand years! Maybe a best seller list will take back to Moses' "365 Ways to Prepare Manna".

 

[Bendito]

A huge cubic city of gold large enough to block out the sun, halting production of crops for a thousand years! Maybe a best seller list will take back to Moses' "365 Ways to Prepare Manna".

"365 Ways to Prepare Manna". Hmmm Put that with "101 Ways to Wok your dog"... Truly though....I think if God is putting the city there, and it's not on the ground...It won't interfere with crops...God is not thoughtless of that.

 

[Dovegiven]

Gods' Word tells us that there Will be a day of judgement -- Every knee will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord / acknowledge that God Does exist. But everyone's 'fate' will already have been set --No reconsidering. And Then everyone will be sent to 'where ever' for eternity. Either heaven or hell.

Unfortunately -- as much as we'd Like to be able to change the eternity destiny of our loved ones' , friends, etc. Their salvation is between them and God.

Yes, we Do need to be evangelizing -- but it's the Holy Spirit who convicts and the individual who accepts or rejects.

No one wants to have to accept the reality of Eternal suffering. In our norm -- fire kills and destroys -- and cremation leaves only ashes. So the concept of Eternal fire and existing in that environment Forever almost seems impossible. And besides -- the lake of fire and brimstone is only meant for satan and the beast and false prophet. The cross of Christ is available to everyone else.

@KingJ -- the subject of 'free will'. Yes, we Do have choice -- but God is the Only One / entity/ who has All Knowledge. He, alone already knows -- as known from the beginning who will and will Not accept His salvation. He , alone, knows who will do what With 'free will'.

Yet, God will make sure every person will have that choice. A very wealthy owner of a bakery company turned his houseboat keys over to me, seeing he would only use it once a decade. The slip is paid, taxes paid, and there's a fuel and mechanic account at the marina. The sad part is he told me God did speak to him decades ago, but he just couldn't comprehend upending his estate, forsaking his employees. So we leave plenty of helps around in there for if and when they do return. I told him face to face I hoped he would not finish as following Satan to his eternal darkness. "I tithe to the Methodist Church, and believe in the power of tithing. I hope that counts for something." We don't use that boat because it reminds us of how riches can deflect people to eternal torment. I just inspect it, have it cleaned once a year.

 

[Dovegiven]

"365 Ways to Prepare Manna". Hmmm Put that with "101 Ways to Wok your dog"... Truly though....I think if God is putting the city there, and it's not on the ground...It won't interfere with crops...God is not thoughtless of that.

When I read the last chapters of Isaiah I get a feeling God will handle people in the Milennium like He did in the Exodus wilderness experience. Well, at least over the Middle East. Us "young lion" sheep nations might be producing some of what they need.

 

[Dovegiven]

If any unbeliever really found himself in Gehenna he would instantly become a believer. There are no atheists or unbelievers in hell . Just believers in God and Jesus. The first second in hell will convert the most harden sinner. There would be no doubt, ifs, ands, or buts.

It will by then be way too late. Their opportunity is their "now", in the flesh, not like a prisoner in a cell facing life or exectuion for his crimes.
Jesus said of "eye for an eye" with a His work-around in
Matthew 5:38-48 (KJV)
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[MadHermit]

Dovegiven,
I repeat: "aionios" does not mean "eternal" or "forever." Rather, it derives from the Greek noun "aIon" which means "age" and therefore means "agelong" or simply "a long time." Thus, for example, Jewish literature in Jesus' day can refu\er to "aionios sleep" and then discuss what happens after that period of sleep ends! So the aionios NT texts you cite are irrelevant to my point.

 

[Dovegiven]

Deuteronomy 32:22-25 (KJV)
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.

Some rabbis and Christians scholars do try to erase the specter of a burning hell that lasts for ever. Some say the OT doesn't mention anything beyond a shallow grave or the old city dup that seemd to burn always. I have never heard of a graveyard with fire in in the graves. In New Orleans I've seen graveyards with some buried above ground and many below, but there is no steam or smoke there. The old city dump of ancient Jerusalem has long ago burned out. There is that place with another level called Paradise where souls found with with faith were kept until rescued by Jesus.

I see this subject has been debated many times, and there's always some who refuse to take the scripture literally like Jesus did.
Mark 9:42-44 (KJV)
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

No matter how you parse the Greek, or common sense English comprehension, knowing there are variations of scrippture by versions, it's a fact hell is a dark place of eternal, unending fire and torture, where the people in it never escape. Only one, Jesus, left it.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 18:8; "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

The fire is eternal, forever, never ending, never ceasing.

Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The punishment is just as eternal as for those who receive eternal life.

Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:28; for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Hades is a place of torment as well.

Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Their torment goes up "forever and ever", they will have no rest from this... ever.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The devil, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever and ever.

For some reason some people want to paint the Bible "in error". They don't want it to say what it says.
Some people are only happy with a namby/pamby marshmallow God that lets people sin all they want, reject His Son if they choose, and gives these people very little punishment (if any) for doing these things.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Once you are there... there you stay. Forever is a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long,.....

 

[B-A-C]

Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

It seems those who are cast into the outer darkness will be there until the judgment day. After that.... I'm guessing it wont be pleasant.

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

You get one chance, and one chance only. There is no re-incarnation, no second chances, no purgatory, once you're dead you end up in one of two places... forever.

 

[Sue D.]

It sounds like in some of this discussion -- the millennial (1,000) reign of Christ here on earth is being mixed up with the New Jerusalem.

When Christ returns to earth , His 1,000 reign -- it will be to the Mt. Olives. Zechariah 14:3 tells us that. Revelation 20:7 says that when those 1,000 yrs are up satan will be loosed for a season and then we find out about satan's doom as well as the beast and false prophet and THEN ch 21 tells us about the New Jerusalem -- it says that the Old heaven and earth will pass away and the Holy City, the New Jerusalem will be brought down from heaven. And THAT will be the dwelling place for born-again believers for ever and ever.

 

[Bendito]

It sounds like in some of this discussion -- the millennial (1,000) reign of Christ here on earth is being mixed up with the New Jerusalem.

When Christ returns to earth , His 1,000 reign -- it will be to the Mt. Olives. Zechariah 14:3 tells us that. Revelation 20:7 says that when those 1,000 yrs are up satan will be loosed for a season and then we find out about satan's doom as well as the beast and false prophet and THEN ch 21 tells us about the New Jerusalem -- it says that the Old heaven and earth will pass away and the Holy City, the New Jerusalem will be brought down from heaven. And THAT will be the dwelling place for born-again believers for ever and ever.

And THAT will be the dwelling place for born-again believers for ever and ever. Sue please show the verse that says this is forever?
Discerning prophesy before the fact can be really sketchy..LOL

 

[Sue D.]

How about John 3:16 -- "....who so ever believeth on Him, will not perish but have everlasting life"

Romans 6:23 or 3:23 -- for the wages of sin is Death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why Wouldn't it be 'forever' ?! The Garden of Eden was meant to last 'forever', except that Eve listened to the serpent and believed him instead of obeying God' Word. If they had Not eaten from that tree -- they Would have lived forever. A perpetual garden of perfection for the rest of mankind who would have come from Adam and Eve as the first parents.

Discerning prophesy before the fact ?! -- the birth of Jesus Christ was Prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. And it was fulfilled in Matthew. Immanuel meaning 'God with us'.

Besides-- what I've shared -- you can read it your self. Why do you call That, 'discerning prophesy before the fact'.

 

[Bendito]

How about John 3:16 -- "....who so ever believeth on Him, will not perish but have everlasting life"

Romans 6:23 or 3:23 -- for the wages of sin is Death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Why Wouldn't it be 'forever' ?! The Garden of Eden was meant to last 'forever', except that Eve listened to the serpent and believed him instead of obeying God' Word. If they had Not eaten from that tree -- they Would have lived forever. A perpetual garden of perfection for the rest of mankind who would have come from Adam and Eve as the first parents.

Discerning prophesy before the fact ?! -- the birth of Jesus Christ was Prophesied in Isaiah 7:14. And it was fulfilled in Matthew. Immanuel meaning 'God with us'.

Besides-- what I've shared -- you can read it your self. Why do you call That, 'discerning prophesy before the fact'.

Discerning prophesy before the fact.....It has not happened yet. Where does the bible say we will live in the New Jerusalem forever? Where does it say the New Jerusalem comes down after the millennium?