Lazarus and the Rich man...

[GodB4Us]

Saul was a false prophet / false apostle

Not sure why you would apply the fallen former King Saul to that category.

I would agree with the great gulf between communing with the dead for the living (necromancy) and the word of God prophecy .All things written in the law and prophets.(sola scriptura) No man can serve two good teaching masters as our one unseen Lord

Are both Abraham and Samuel considered prophets as apostles sent by God ?

Why would you believe Abraham was sent as a prophet? To whom did God send Abraham to in being a prophet? God testified of Abaham in scripture to the nation of Israel as prophesying about them as God's chosen people, which in turn led to the prophesy regarding the seed, Christ, by whom all nations will be blessed and that is how and why all who believe in Him are born of God per John 1:12-13.

So God gave a prophesy regarding Abraham, but I do not understand how you would categorized Abraham as a prophet other than to his own blood line like he did to Isaac in testifying that God will provide for His servants.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

I suppose Abraham could be seen as an apostle in our eyes in regards to his own household, the future nation of Israel.

Samuel would definitely be seen as a prophet sent to Israel but maybe as an apostle only to our eyes in looking over the steadfastness of the nation of Israel not to go astray.

But I fail to see why it would be important to give either one of them that title of apostleship, or for that matter, Abraham as a prophet when generally we think of prophets as sent by God to speak unto the people.

 

[Sue D.]

See ... ???

This is the perfect example of where changing the verb tenses in a translation change the intended meaning.

@Brother Paul, I know you believe what I quoted above, but such a claim is not supported by the Grammar of the Greek text. It just isn't.

All I'm asking is that you recognize that your view is an interpretation, and from a linguistic perspective, I find it to be a poor interpretation.

Kindly
Rhema

Rhema. You manage to find most everything to be a poor translation of the Greek if it doesn't agree with your translation or use of grammar. Seems it never has occurred to you that Your interpretation might be off.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema. You manage to find most everything to be a poor translation of the Greek if it doesn't agree with your translation or use of grammar. Seems it never has occurred to you that Your interpretation might be off.

PREFACE TO THE REVISED EDITION of Young's Literal Translation Of The Bible

THE following Translation of the New Testament is based upon the belief that every word of the original is "God-breathed," as the Apostle Paul says in his Second Epistle to Timothy, chap. 3.16. That language is, indeed, applicable, in the first place, only to the Writings of the "Old Testament," in which Timothy had been instructed, but as the Apostle Peter, in his Second Epistle, chap. 3.15,16, expressly ranks the "Epistles" of his beloved brother Paul along with "the other Scriptures," as the "Gospels" and the "Acts" of the Apostles were undoubtedly written before the date of Peter's writing, by men to whom the Saviour promised and gave the Holy Spirit, to guide them to all truth, to teach them all things, and to remind them of all things that Jesus said and did, there can be no reasonable ground for denying the inspiration of the New Testament by any one who holds that of the Old, or who is willing to take the plain unsophisticated meaning of God's Word regarding either.

This inspiration extends only to the original text, as it came from the pens of the writers, not to any translations ever made by man, however aged, venerable, or good; and only in so far as any of these adhere to the original--neither adding to nor omitting from it one particle--are they of any real value, for, to the extent that they vary from the original, the doctrine of verbal inspiration is lost, so far as that version is concerned.

If a translation gives a present tense when the original gives a past, or a past when it has a present; a perfect for a future, or a future for a perfect; an a for a the, or a the for an a; an imperative for a subjunctive, or a subjunctive for an imperative; a verb for a noun, or a noun for a verb, it is clear that verbal inspiration is as much overlooked as if it had no existence. THE WORD OF GOD IS MADE VOID BY THE TRADITIONS OF MEN.

- Robert Young

 

[Garee]

Not sure why you would apply the fallen former King Saul to that category.



Why would you believe Abraham was sent as a prophet? To whom did God send Abraham to in being a prophet? God testified of Abaham in scripture to the nation of Israel as prophesying about them as God's chosen people, which in turn led to the prophesy regarding the seed, Christ, by whom all nations will be blessed and that is how and why all who believe in Him are born of God per John 1:12-13.

So God gave a prophesy regarding Abraham, but I do not understand how you would categorized Abraham as a prophet other than to his own blood line like he did to Isaac in testifying that God will provide for His servants.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

I suppose Abraham could be seen as an apostle in our eyes in regards to his own household, the future nation of Israel.

Samuel would definitely be seen as a prophet sent to Israel but maybe as an apostle only to our eyes in looking over the steadfastness of the nation of Israel not to go astray.

But I fail to see why it would be important to give either one of them that title of apostleship, or for that matter, Abraham as a prophet when generally we think of prophets as sent by God to speak unto the people.

Hi thanks for the reply.

Prophecy "the word of God" speaks to the people. In that way it is not accredited to the prophet.

While it’s not the most common understanding it rings true if a person rightly divides the book of Prophecy the Bible, comparing the spiritual unseen understanding to the same or called faith to faith .Having that faith as it is written respect to the faith of God who works in his apostles as prophets . . a labor of His love .

I would offer a prophet is one who declares the will of another or reveals it. True prophets reveal His truth. False prophets reveal a lie. An apostle is a prophet sent by God.

In that way I would say there is no division of the gifts between the word prophet and apostle. They are listed separate but again all gifts work together as one. He would not send an apostle with nothing.

An apostle is reckoned by feet called beautiful as a messenger he bring prophecy mouth.

Abraham like all messengers is called an apostle as a prophet they reveal the unseen things of God. I would offer Abel the first apostle listed and first recorded martyr. Like most doctrines are found in Genesis.

An apostle is considered as nothing knowing God is not served by dying corrupted mankind human hands as a will (1 Corinthian 3:2-8) Either God causes the increase or growth when men plant the incorruptible seed the gospel or water it with the doctrines of God that fall from above, giving meaning to inspired by God If not there can be no change as growth.

The opposite or counterfeit earthly inspired by the god of this world, as false prophets false apostles . . . nothing changes nothing.

Many denominations have desired to empower themselves comparing themselves to themselves therefore not walking or understanding God according to the faith of Christ which false prophecy ultimately destroys the government of God making it desolate . .

2 Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

The father and Son working as one God to establish the government of peace surpasses our understand Him giving his to us

Again compare ourselves with some that commend themselves is needed for false apostles to give some false power to mankind needed when men venerate or worship each other rather that God alone. That idealism would blaspheme His holy name or authority as it is written. I would compare it to plagiarism on the highest level as in the garden of Eden. Did God really say you shall surely die? Therefore false prophecy spoken by a false prophet the spirit of lies.

In Deuteronomy 4 the Spirit of Christ has set up a loving law to protect the integrity of one word .Changing the meaning of one can change commandments many.

Deuteronomy 4: 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

This is similar to the warning at the end of the book of prophecy called Revelation in so much it represent the integrity of whole or perfect (Genesis through Revelation)

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

In the end of the matter it destroys phrases like "apostolic succession" or "apostolic time period" etc.

The question I would ask is why set aside 12 ? What kind of purpose can we reckon from 12?

 

[GodB4Us]

The question I would ask is why set aside 12 ? What kind of purpose can we reckon from 12?

Not sure why. There are 12 tribes of Israel as a nation.

Genesis 35:22 And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve: 23 The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: 24 The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin: 25 And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali: 26 And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid: Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, which were born to him in Padanaram.

Exodus 39: 14 And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

The sealing of the 144,000 witnesses for the duration of the Great Tribulation;

Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Then there is that City of God'

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Revelation 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Then there are twelve thrones to which the tribes of Israel will be judged.

Matthew 19: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22: 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I can fathom because there are twelve thrones is maybe why He started out with twelves, but we will know when we cme face to face with Him, God be willing.

 

[Garee]

Not sure why. There are 12 tribes of Israel as a nation.

Genesis 35:22 And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve: 23 The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: 24 The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin: 25 And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali: 26 And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid: Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, which were born to him in Padanaram.

Exodus 39: 14 And the stones were according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

The sealing of the 144,000 witnesses for the duration of the Great Tribulation;

Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Then there is that City of God'

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Revelation 22:2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Then there are twelve thrones to which the tribes of Israel will be judged.

Matthew 19: 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22: 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I can fathom because there are twelve thrones is maybe why He started out with twelves, but we will know when we cme face to face with Him, God be willing.

Hi thanks for the reply. In that way I agree .

Twelve is used throughout the bible in parables or called hidden manna in Revelation 2. Using the word twelve as metaphor to represent the authority or power of God.

A parable as an example in Mark . Five throughout seems to represent the re-deemed by the blood

Mark 8:19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.

Revelation 21 is a picture of the whole bride the church made up of Jews and gentiles , using tribes to represent gates to enter in and out the old testament and apostles the new testament to represent the foundation or pillar of faith.

Interesting the tribe of Dan is missing in Revelation as well as the false apostle Judas. Possibly another doctrine I believe to express the gospel hid from the un-redeemed . Revealing it to those who are re-deemed .

it does not change the simplicity of the gospel more of an enrichment the taste of honey the hidden manna .

 

[Rhema]

I can fathom because there are twelve thrones

As an aside, there are twelve thrones in the temple in front of the Sphinx, which at one time had the head of a Lion.

Rhema

 

[only son]

.
Wow - there are so many pages, I read about ten pages but there are 23

I believe that the story of Lazarus is a parable of fictional narrative and is NOT a realistic narrative depicting reality that a person goes to hell before they are judged - on the great day of Judgment.

Roman Catholics will take this parable and use it to support the idea that Saints are in Heaven and Sinners are in Purgatory

Click Here - How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants | EWTN

Roman Catholics use this very passage about Lazarus visiting someone in hell - however Yahashua was not giving a realistic biblical narrative but instead, it was a fictional non - realistic narrative to demonstrate a lesson about rebellion and disobedience that :31 . . If one would hear not Moses and the prophets, - neither will they be persuaded, even though someone had risen from the dead.

Roman Catholics do not mention Luk 16:26 saying - there is a great chasm / gap or gulf or a barrier fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you CANNOT; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.

This means that if someone is in the Catholic Purgatory, and the parable says that, they cannot come { IT IS IMPOSSIBLE } to pass from there you CANNOT; neither can they pass back to us,

If they can never be brought back to the land of the living because of a great chasm / gap or gulf or a barrier - why would they be able expect to be released from purgatory to enter into heaven ?

Roman Catholics completely ignore the entire focal point of the ENTIRE STORY how that Verse :31 says If one would hear not Moses and the prophets, - neither will they be persuaded, even though someone had risen from the dead.

This means that if this place of torment is the literal Roman Catholic purgatory - Yahashua was making it clear AS THE ENTIRE POINT . . . . . . . - that - If one would hear not even hear Moses or the prophets, - neither will they be persuaded, even though someone had risen from the dead.

In other words people WHO ARE DESTINED and GOING and HEADED to this place of torment would not even hear the word of God neither will they hear someone who had risen from the dead. So how is the Catholic Mary or one of the Catholic Saints going to be able to persuade someone in this tormentous place ?

Yahashua was saying that it was impossible to persuade someone headed and destined and going to this place to repent ! Yet Roman Catholics claim that Yahashua was wrong and that people in this place can be saved by praying to a Saint !

If this were a realistic story - this also means that someone would be able to communicate directly and speak directly having a conversation with someone who had died and went to hell. or in Catholic Purgatory. - this is against the law of God.. This is why it is a fictional parable

And then we wonder why the Bible did not just mention Purgatory at least once. Why does not God just resurrect everyone from purgatory and let them come back and preach to their living relatives - this is why - it is just a parable, people in this place probably would not be concerned about the souls of their living relatives or would probably come back from the dead trying to preach Roman Catholicism or some other perversion.

The reason that I believe that is a fictional narrative is because of the way that Yahashua told his parables, for example the parable about the servants who did simply did not spend and manage their finances wisely.

Yahashua describes their punishment for failing their financially investments, what is their punishment just for using their finances incorrectly or unwisely

Luk 19 :15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, AND SLAY / KILL THEM BEFORE ME.

Yahashua is telling a fictional story based on a parable not reality - he is not suggesting or supporting a reality where someone is worthy of death simply for not trading and spending in favor of himself and his priorities.

HE IS MAKING AN EQUATION OR AN EQUIVALENCE TO THE SERIOUSNESS OF SERVING GOD BASED UPON A FICTIONAL PARABLE THAT SEEMS LIKE A FICTION OR lighthearted TO THOSE DISOBEDIENT.

he is not suggesting or supporting a reality where someone is worthy of death simply for not trading and spending in favor of him and his priorities, any more than he was saying that the dead rich man was in hell or purgatory before the great judgment day.

no more than he was trying to suggest that rich people deserve hell. This is why I believe it was a parable,