Lazarus and the Rich man...

[Sue D.]

Rhema. Referring back to conversation concerning the lord's prayer. You asked specifically if praying that prayer was sufficient unto a person's salvation. And my response was 'no'. And I also said that it's a wonderful prayer and I will add that it is repeated by many at various times and places. And I also shares some passages about taking everything to God in prayer.

I pray to God as my heavenly Father. Sharing inner thoughts and feelings with Him through Jesus Christ as the mediator between God and people.

 

[B-A-C]

Sharing inner thoughts and feelings with Him through Jesus Christ as the mediator between God and people.

Technically Jesus in the mediator of the New Covenant.

Gal 3:19; Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
Gal 3:20; Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
1Tim 2:5; For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Heb 8:6; But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
Heb 9:15; For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Heb 12:24; and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

But is also a intercessor.

Heb 7:25; Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

When it comes to prayer. The Holy Spirit is our intercessor.

Rom 8:26; In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

I think a lot of people don't understand the difference between mediation and intercession. Certainly the Roman Catholic church doesn't, as they call Mary the mediatrix. Yet they say they call her this because she makes intercession for them.
Of couse Mary is not a mediator or an intercessor.

 

[Garee]

I think thats one of the main points G. Jesus didnt baptize Paul, not much ,and there is no firm indication of methodology. so we should be careful not to make too much of the method as as well.

Jesus carried on the foundation of water baptism found in the Old testament . Literal water symbolizes the water of the word the washing and renewing work of God a kingdom of priest. It was transferred from Levites to the tribe of Judah to represent all the nations of the world .

As a shadow it provides no evidence to those who walk by faith (the unseen eternal) and not after what the eyes see water the temporal.

It is no different than any other what some call "sign gifts" . I did it, it proves it as those who do glory in the flesh

The Gospel the water of the word.

 

[Garee]

And yet, Jesus did baptize.

After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.​

(John 3:22 KJV)​

Thanks,
Rhema

Yes by fulfilling the law spoken of in Psalm 110 he did follow the old testament ceremonial law as a shadow used in parables .

Psalm 110:4 The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek

It is the subject matter in John 3 . (Questioning) What is a person (Jesus from the tribe of Judah) doing performing the ceremonial washing when used one had a personal desire to become a Priest and hold old the gospel the water of the word to the world . . Why not the Levites ?

John 3:24-26 For John was not yet cast into prison. Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

I would ask? Who told them to come to Jesus rather than John if not the hidden witness working in them ? No sign was given other than the work of God working in them to both reveall his will and also empower them to move according to the good pleasurer of His living will

.If John was baptizing those according to the more new modern day uses of those debating if water as a metaphor is sprinkled or submerged?.

Many teach literally getting wet it is evidence a person has the Holy Spirit rather than to use of one who desires to join the kingdom of priests making a pledge to others in the same kingdom of priest (all believers)

 

[Sue D.]

Baptist churches all have a baptistry, thus - the pastor momentarily lays the person back in the water and immediately raises that person back up. One church we'd gone to , had all of us meet at a lake and had to he baptisimal service there with all the people around seeing it.

 

[Hitch]

Baptist churches all have a baptistry, thus - the pastor momentarily lays the person back in the water and immediately raises that person back up. One church we'd gone to , had all of us meet at a lake and had to he baptisimal service there with all the people around seeing it.

We're sprinklers but whatever someone wants we make provision. In the past year we've had river dunks and even rigged up a temporary in the fellowship hall for a gal who wanted to be dunked. Baptism is world wide , geography and methodology matter little.

 

[Rhema]

You asked specifically if praying that prayer was sufficient unto a person's salvation. And my response was 'no'.

Really?? You said no?? This means no?

The Lord's Prayer is a wonderful prayer. But it's not establishing a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

So just to be clear on this, "salvation" to you means "establishing a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ." (Though you've not quite said just how that's done.)

But I've already addressed that post.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Sue D.]

Rhema that's what I said b cause that's what God's Word says
I'd you don't want to believe the scripture stating "to be saved" that's up to you.

 

[Rhema]

We're sprinklers but whatever someone wants we make provision. In the past year we've had river dunks and even rigged up a temporary in the fellowship hall for a gal who wanted to be dunked. Baptism is world wide , geography and methodology matter little.

I know of a store-front church that dragged in a plastic portable horse watering trough from the local farm store since they rented the building and couldn't make structural changes.

 

[Rhema]

I'd you don't want to believe the scripture stating "to be saved" that's up to you.

What scripture? You didn't post any.

As for me, I would rather not think that Jesus would teach a prayer that was insufficient.

Rhema
(Especially without saying so).

 

[Sue D.]

We're sprinklers but whatever someone wants we make provision. In the past year we've had river dunks and even rigged up a temporary in the fellowship hall for a gal who wanted to be dunked. Baptism is world wide , geography and methodology matter little.

Hitch -- the terminology ' getting dunked ' sounds very unspiritual. Why not call it being baptized by immersion because that's what is biblical.

Yes - baptism is practiced all over the world and the method Of is very important

 

[Rhema]

Yes - baptism is practiced all over the world and the method Of is very important

Only to Baptists - that's their "secret sauce" that makes them special from others ... (actual Greek language be danged).

 

[Hitch]

Hitch -- the terminology ' getting dunked ' sounds very unspiritual. Why not call it being baptized by immersion because that's what is biblical.

Yes - baptism is practiced all over the world and the method Of is very important

But you still cant prove what you said about .

 

[Garee]

Baptist churches all have a baptistry, thus - the pastor momentarily lays the person back in the water and immediately raises that person back up. One church we'd gone to , had all of us meet at a lake and had to he baptisimal service there with all the people around seeing it.

My home church tried both lake and borrowing from the Baptist brother.

 

[Sue D.]

Try the fact that it's Bible teaching / not Baptist. Baptists do things because it's in the Bible which is God's Word to us.

@Rhema. Why are you sounding so cynical. Greek and Hebrew and some Aramaic can also have a couple of different meanings of words.. you're sounding a bit Pharisaical with your knowledge.

 

[Rhema]

@Rhema. Why are you sounding so cynical.

However did you arrive at that conclusion?

Try the fact that it's Bible teaching / not Baptist.

One cannot decide that baptidzo means "immersion" from vocabulary alone. That's why I consulted two lexicons.

Greek and Hebrew and some Aramaic can also have a couple of different meanings of words..

Exactly. As you yourself just said. If the words can have a couple of different meanings, then one cannot decide that baptidzo means "immersion" from vocabulary alone.

Doesn't the word 'baptiso' that's from memory - mean total immersion.

No, it does not.

At this point, one may be only able to resolve this issue by referring to the documents and practices of the early Church Fathers.

you're sounding a bit Pharisaical with your knowledge.

Wait. What? I'm not the one running around declaring that baptism means (and must mean) total immersion - that would be rather Pharisaical.

I don't care if you dunk or not. I'm saying the Baptists have set themselves above others (like the Pharisees) as having "special" insight.

Rhema

 

[Sue D.]

@Rhema -- I just Googled 'baptism' - it's a transliteration of Greek word 'baptizo' which means to immerse.

In Hebrew it is referred to as a 'mikveh' - an immersion.

Churches of Christ baptize o ly by full body immersion based on the Koine Greek verb 'baptizo' which means to dip.immerse ,submerge , or plunge.'

And that is all from Google

Also looked into new testament times of people being baptized-- all were done in a body of water.

It's also true that a word is defined by its context of useage.

I'm usually pointing out that context is necessary for the correct understanding of a verse. And that is also true in the correct spelling of 'two, too and to' and 'there and their'. They have to be used in a sentence to determine which spelling is correct.

 

[Rhema]

@Rhema -- I just Googled 'baptism'

baptidzo - LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for βαπτίζω
A. dip, plunge, to be drenched,

2. draw wine by dipping the cup in the bowl,​

Cambridge Greek Lexicon (no online support available)

Cambridge Greek Lexicon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

baptidzo -

1) plunge (toss a person into a pond)​

2) sink (a ship in battle)​

3) get wet (in the sea)​

4) (of Bacchus) plunge (into sleep; into drunkenness)​

a - Be soaked (with wine)​

b - Immersed (as in deep within an argument, or awash in debt)​

5) wash ritually (before a meal) New Testament.​

6) "baptize" - a religious ritual whereby water is used on people to get wet​

a) representative of having sin washed away​

b) metaphorically of fire or the Holy Spirit washing over people.​

​

At this point, one may be only able to resolve this issue by referring to the documents and practices of the early Church Fathers.

Look, Sue, if you just want to argue, go bother somebody else. The language does not support your premise, nor is the process actually described in the NT.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

'two, too and to' and 'there and their'. They have to be used in a sentence to determine which spelling is correct.

That's because they are completely different words, Sue. You seem to imply that there is just one word that's spelled differently because of "context." That's not how context works.

Context is used to determine which definition of the SAME word applies to the intended meaning of a text.

If I say the house is blue, does that mean it's depressed ??

And if I say "John is blue," it might mean he's depressed, OR it might mean he attended one of those Hindu festivals and was baptized in blue powder.

Rhema

 

[Sue D.]

All of my life -- baptism by immersion has been a person showing publically that they believe in their heart that Jesus Christ died on the cross and then was buried and then rose again bodily on the third day -- according to what scripture teaches us.

And that is all I have to say. Following God's Word.

Coming up out of those baptismal waters, a person is showing their desire to live a Godly/ Christ-like life.