Limited atonement !

[Rockerduck]

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

He was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. If, as you claim, He only died for His sheep, then only Israelites can be saved.

My offer still stands. If you'd like to get together and discuss these issues just let me know.

The sheep are the elect Gentiles too.

Romans 11:16-18 - For if the first fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Galatians 3:7-9 - Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Galatians' 3:29 - 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Butch5]

The sheep are the elect Gentiles too.

Romans 11:16-18 - For if the first fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

Galatians 3:7-9 - Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Galatians' 3:29 - 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but the word sheep isn't in any of the passages you posted.

Please explain how Jesus is wrong.


And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

 

[Rockerduck]

I'm not sure if you noticed, but the word sheep isn't in any of the passages you posted.

Please explain how Jesus is wrong.


And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

If Israel is the sheep of Abrahams promise, then so the Gentiles have also been grafted into the promises of Abraham. It doesn't matter if "sheep" isn't mentioned. Both elect Jews and elect Gentiles have the same promises, and therefore of the same sheep.

 

[Butch5]

If Israel is the sheep of Abrahams promise, then so the Gentiles have also been grafted into the promises of Abraham. It doesn't matter if "sheep" isn't mentioned. Both elect Jews and elect Gentiles have the same promises, and therefore of the same sheep.

Gentiles are grafted in. That was later. The sheep that Jesus came to were the lost house is Israel. Isrsel is the elect. It's also know as the Israel of God. The idea the Jesus only died for His sheep is the fallacy of Cherry Picking. John the Baptist said that Christ takes away the sin if the world.

The whole of the doctrines of Predestination and Election as they are understood in the church today are completely incompatible with Scripture. They've been created from passages of Scripture that have been taken out of context and completely misunderstood. I've offered quite a few times to sit down with Brightframe 52 a work these doctrines out. He doesn't seem interested. Both of these doctrines are extra Biblical.

 

[Brightfame52]

Jesus prayer indicates limited atonement !

Jn 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Now why did Christ refuse to pray for everyone ? Because all were not His that had been given to Him by His Father like His Sheep had been Jn 10:27-30

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The same as in Jn 17 :2

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Since Christ didn't pray for them, then He didn't die for them as He did His Sheep !

 

[Brightfame52]

I'm not sure if you noticed, but the word sheep isn't in any of the passages you posted.

Please explain how Jesus is wrong.


And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Thats limited atonement right there. Thats the world He came to save !

 

[Butch5]

Thats limited atonement right there. Thats the world He came to save !

So, only those Jews could be saved? If that's the case why would anyone worry about it since no after that could saved?

The lost sheep of the house of Israel isn't the world.

That also leaves out the the creation which will also be saved.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus prayer indicates limited atonement !

Jn 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Now why did Christ refuse to pray for everyone ? Because all were not His that had been given to Him by His Father like His Sheep had been Jn 10:27-30

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The same as in Jn 17 :2

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Since Christ didn't pray for them, then He didn't die for them as He did His Sheep !

Again, there are problems with the interpretation. Firstly, 'has given' is past tense. These were people that had been given to Christ previously. This says absolutely nothing about people in the future. These were men who were given to Christ to go out and spread the Gospel. These are the apostles and disciples.

The statement, since Christ didn't pray for them He didn't die for them, is a logical fallacy. It's the either/or fallacy. It's not one or the other. He was speaking of a particular group of men, not all of humanity. Thus his prayer was for that particular group, not all of humanity.

 

[Brightfame52]

So, only those Jews could be saved? If that's the case why would anyone worry about it since no after that could saved?

The lost sheep of the house of Israel isn't the world.

That also leaves out the the creation which will also be saved.

Christ Church isn't comprised of only jews, where you get that from ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Again, there are problems with the interpretation. Firstly, 'has given' is past tense. These were people that had been given to Christ previously. This says absolutely nothing about people in the future. These were men who were given to Christ to go out and spread the Gospel. These are the apostles and disciples.

The statement, since Christ didn't pray for them He didn't die for them, is a logical fallacy. It's the either/or fallacy. It's not one or the other. He was speaking of a particular group of men, not all of humanity. Thus his prayer was for that particular group, not all of humanity.

Christ didnt pray for the world in general so He didnt die for the world in general

 

[Butch5]

Christ didnt pray for the world in general so He didnt die for the world in general

That's a non sequitur. It's a logical fallacy. It doesn't follow.

I've debated with Calvinists for years. My friend, the doctrines aren't sound. You'd do much better in growing your faith by casting aside those doctrines and seeking the Truth.

 

[Butch5]

Christ Church isn't comprised of only jews, where you get that from ?

Because the passage you quoted was about those Jews. That's the context. We can't take the passage, rip it from it's context and say all believers are sheep and Jesus came to all believers. That's not how one finds the truth. Rather That's how one protects doctrine.

Jesus came to those Jews. He didn't come to the Gentiles, He didn't come to the Americans, and, He didn't come to you.

 

[B-A-C]

Christ didnt pray for the world in general so He didnt die for the world in general

1Jn 2:2; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

 

[Butch5]

1Jn 2:2; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

He'll redefine the word world.

 

[B-A-C]

Jn 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Who is Jesus talking about here?

John 16:17; Some of His disciples then said to one another, "What is this thing He is telling us, 'A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me'; and, 'because I go to the Father'?"
John 16:18; So they were saying, "What is this that He says, 'A little while'? We do not know what He is talking about."

Who is "We"; the disciples.

John 16:29; His disciples *said, "Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.
John 16:30; "Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God."

John 17:12; "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

It says here that Jesus guarded "them" which you have given me. He was keeping "them". Who are them? Well we know one of the "them" was Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition who betrayed Him.
This points back to the disciples also.

John 17:15; "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
John 17:16; "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Who is Jesus praying for here? The disciples.

John 17:20; "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

Now Jesus is expanding His prayer to cover all believers. Not just those who God "has given me".

 

[B-A-C]

@Brightfame52

What is your take on these verses? I don't want another scripture or diversion, I just want your take on these particular passages.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1Jn 2:2; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17; "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

 

[B-A-C]

Jude 1:21; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
Jude 1:22; And have mercy on some, who are doubting;
Jude 1:23; save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Now obviously we aren't Jesus, we can't "save" anyone. But isn't it interesting, that Jude, the bother of Jesus and James, calls us to "save others".
God uses us to influence other people. To change them, to sway them.

Acts 26:28; Agrippa replied to Paul, "In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian."

The quote “Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary use words” is often attributed to St. Francis of Assisi and used as a guide for evangelism

Mark 16:15; And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mark 16:16; "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 28:20; teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Rom 10:13; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14; How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15; How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
Rom 10:16; However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17; So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Again, we don't have the power to save anyone in ourselves. But God uses people. In fact 99% of the Bible is God using people.
We are called to share the Gospel to preach, teach and convert. Not to force people, but to expose them to Christ. Almost everyone who has ever been saved, including yourself.
Is saved because you heard someone talk about Jesus.

1Cor 7:16; For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

 

[Butch5]

Notice it's choice, not Fatalism as the Stoics and Calvinists propose.

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone.

Justin Martyr. 1885. “The First Apology of Justin.” In The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, edited by Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, 1:183. The Ante-Nicene Fathers. Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

 

[Curtis]

Limited Atonement for those who are saved, Unlimited Atonement for those who could be saved.

 

[Brightfame52]

1Jn 2:2; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Thats still minus the world He didnt pray for in Jn 17:9