Limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

Who is Jesus talking about here?

John 16:17; Some of His disciples then said to one another, "What is this thing He is telling us, 'A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me'; and, 'because I go to the Father'?"
John 16:18; So they were saying, "What is this that He says, 'A little while'? We do not know what He is talking about."

Who is "We"; the disciples.

John 16:29; His disciples *said, "Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.
John 16:30; "Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God."

John 17:12; "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

It says here that Jesus guarded "them" which you have given me. He was keeping "them". Who are them? Well we know one of the "them" was Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition who betrayed Him.
This points back to the disciples also.

John 17:15; "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
John 17:16; "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Who is Jesus praying for here? The disciples.

John 17:20; "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;

Now Jesus is expanding His prayer to cover all believers. Not just those who God "has given me".

Talking about His Church, the Body of Christ

 

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52

What is your take on these verses? I don't want another scripture or diversion, I just want your take on these particular passages.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1Jn 2:2; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17; "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

The Church. Eph 5:25-27 or the Elect

 

[Brightfame52]

Who are the Us Here ?

Rom 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


This US refers to the Sheep as Per Jesus Christ words Jn 10:11

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Or its appropriate to say the US in Rom 5:8 refers to Gods Elect as it does in Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Its clearly seen here that Christ died in Vs 34 is connected to why none can lay anything to the charge of Gods Elect in Vs 33

 

[Curtis]

Would you say Abram also known as Abraham and his seed to be called God's elec since God said to Abraham "I have made you a father of many nations?"

And if you be Christ's then are you Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:29)

Guess what Abraham was not a Jew, as the nation Israel did not exist at that time. Abraham was a gentile and he was the first person to be called righteous by his faith in the promise of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Also in Jn 3:16 those who God so Loved that He gave His Only begotten for, they are the Sheep. They are the Ones Believing and have Eternal or Everlasting Life. Its confirmed by Jn 10:11

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. This confirms that God gave His Only begotten Son

Jn 10:28

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. This confirms they are given Eternal or Everlasting Life !

Jn 10:26,27

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

This proves that its the Sheep who are the whosoever is believing in Jn 3:16.

And theyre the Ones Christ laid down His Life for Jn 10:11,15

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ Death was specifically for them that God gave them Grace in Him before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Seethat]

Christ Death was specifically for them that God gave them Grace in Him before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The offer is for whosoever believes, was there ever a time you chose to believe in Jesus to be saved?

 

[Brightfame52]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The offer is for whosoever believes, was there ever a time you chose to believe in Jesus to be saved?

That's way off!

 

[Seethat]

That's way off!

That doesn't explain anything, have you ever chosen to put your faith in Jesus? pretty simple question and very crucial.

 

[Brightfame52]

Understand this. The Lord Jesus Christ did not come to save Adam’s race. He did not die to redeem Adam’s race. He did not fulfil the law for Adam’s race. If he had, Adam’s race would be saved. Christ took hold of Abraham’s seed, came to save, died for, and fulfilled all the law for Abraham’s seed, God’s chosen race, his elect nation, his own peculiar people.

Heb 2:16

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

There were angels that sinned against God too, but He was not commissioned to save them from their eternal doom, and in the same way, He wasn't sent to save all of the seed of adam, but only a particular segment of his progeny, the seed of Abraham.

When it reads He took on the seed of Abraham, the words took on in the greek is epilambanomai:

to take in addition, to lay hold of, take possession of, overtake, attain, attain to

to lay hold of or to seize upon anything with the hands, to take hold of, lay hold of

metaph. to rescue one from peril, to help, succour

It was only that seed He was to rescue from the pit of hell, it was only that seed He was help and succour.

Another reading:

For, as we all know, He [Christ] did not take hold of angels [the fallen angels, to give them a helping and delivering hand], but He did take hold of [the fallen] descendants of Abraham [to reach out to them a helping and delivering hand].AMPC

For Christ came to save His Own, for He himself was of the seed of Abraham Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. 2

 

[Seethat]

Abraham’s seed, God’s chosen race, his elect nation, his own peculiar people.

The seed is Christ

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

now if you are Christs, you are in Christ and Christ is in you then you can apply the 3:29 verse you used

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The way to be in Christ is to be born again, a new creation in Christ, It is offered by grace through faith to anyone who believes and puts their faith in the Gospel of Jesus. It doesn't matter what others tell you or what group you want to be part of. The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.

 

[Brightfame52]

Christ intended not by his death to save all men from their sins, but thus to save the Elect only. John 10:15; Eph.5:25-27; Heb.2:14; Gen.3:15; Tit.2:14

 

[MedicBravo]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep.

People can, have, and do reject His offer of salvation.
God doesn't send people to Hell. They go willingly and most often running and giving God the finger while they do it.
God IS the Authority among other things. He has rules. Heaven was walls and a strict immigration policy.
No excuses. No amount of bargaining. No deals.

 

[Brightfame52]

@MedicBravo

People can, have, and do reject His offer of salvation.

No such thing as a offer of salvation. Salvation is obtained by Jesus Christ for the elect Heb 9:12

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Christ by His Death is the Author of it Heb 5:9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

He is the Author of their obedience to Him, thats Salvation

 

[Brightfame52]

John 6:51 and John 10:11 are compatible, and show that the world Christ gave His Life for was the world of His Sheep,


I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

In both scriptures Jesus uses the for hyper which means:

1. in behalf of, for the sake of

He specifically tells us who the world is in Jn 10:11 in stating "the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."

 

[Brightfame52]

Christs death is limited to them that do as He commands Jn 15:13-14

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

He died only for them who obey Him Heb 5:8-9

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 2

 

[Brightfame52]

Did Christ Really Die for the False, Harlot Church?

Since the Lord’s sacrifice is motivated by His love for those for whom He died (John 15:13; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 5:25), if He laid down His life for absolutely everybody, then he also loved and died for the false church, the *****, and the multitudes who fornicate with her in her corrupt worship (Rev. 17:1-2, 15)! But Ephesians 5:25 teaches that the Son of God “loved the church, and gave himself for it.” No mention is made here of a love of Christ or a death of Christ for that which is not the true, elect church which is sanctified by God’s cleansing Word (26) and presented spotless at the last day (27).

If the Lord Jesus loved and died for everyone head for head (which necessarily includes the false church), then He must have “loved the church [and the false church], and gave himself for [both of them].” Then husbands would be commanded, “love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church [and the false church]” (25). Thus husbands would have to love their wives even as Christ loves His bride and a harlot, the false church.

But Scripture teaches that our Saviour has one bride, the church of all ages (Rev. 21:2). He loved her and gave Himself for her alone. This—and not the theory that the Redeemer loved and died for everybody—is the truth of the cross and the biblical model for Christian husbands who are not to love and give themselves for harlots. Rev. Angus Stewart 3

 

[Curtis]

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

There are people who could have been saved if they would have received the love of the truth that they might be saved. Jesus died for these people too who rejected his truth, or they could never have been given the right to become a son God.

 

[First and the Last]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep.

The doctrine of limited atonement, as described, is not aligned with the understanding of the nature and scope of Christ's atoning work on the cross. Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for the salvation of all humanity and God's grace is universally available to everyone. This is grounded in scriptures such as 1 Timothy 2:4, which states that God "will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth," and 2 Peter 3:9, which affirms that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

To understand 1 Corinthians 15:3 in this context: "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures." This verse emphasizes the foundational truth of the Gospel that Christ died for our sins. "our sins" refers to the sins of all humanity, not just a select group. The atoning death of Christ on the cross was a complete and sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the entire world.

I believe that while not all will accept this salvation, the offer of atonement through Jesus' death is extended to all people, not just a select few. Christ's atoning death on the cross satisfied the requirements of God's law and justice for the entire world, making salvation accessible to anyone who responds in faith, repentance, and obedience to the gospel. This universal offer underscores the boundless love and mercy of God, who desires a relationship with every individual. Therefore, while we affirm the power and sufficiency of Christ's atonement, we emphasize its universal availability, rejecting the notion that it is limited to a predetermined elect.

 

[Brightfame52]

With articles from AS I will show how certain passages of scripture teach limited atonement

John 10 Teaches Particular Redemption

In John 10, Jesus teaches that He, the good shepherd, died for His sheep: “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep” (11); “I lay down my life for the sheep” (15). Just as every earthly shepherd has his “own sheep” (3, 4), Christ refers to His “fold” or flock (16) as “my sheep” (14, 26, 27). Later, the Lord told some people that they were not His sheep and that this was the reason why they did not believe: “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep” (26).

The argument is simple: Jesus died for His sheep (11, 15), knowing exactly who they are (14, 26, 27); He told certain people that they were not His sheep (26); therefore, He did not die for them. The Lord also said that His sheep were given to Him by His Father (29). The Father gave the sheep to the Son in His eternal purpose of election so that in time He would die for them and gather them out of all nations (16). Since Christ died for His sheep (and some are not His sheep), and His sheep are the elect, Christ died for the elect alone.