Mid trib fleeing of Israel

Eric E Stahl · Jan 20, 2014

farout · Jan 21, 2014

Eric E Stahl said:
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Zechariah 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

(((At the middle of the tribulation the Lord will come down to help Israel escape the armies of antichrist which are under the control of the devil who has been cast to the earth)))

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Revelation 12:13-16
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

((When the army of antichrist follows Israel down the valley, the mountain will close and swallow the army as the Red Sea swallowed the army of Eygpt))

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

((When the lamb (Lord) comes to Israel she will flee to the river ford on the Arnon River which is 1/3 of the way south on the Jordan side of the Dead Sea.))

Isaiah 16:1-5
1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Eric: Before 1820 with Darby theory, the pre, mid, and post trib. was not even and issue. Did everyone before have it all wrong? Is it necessary, in your minds eye to believe this to be a solid Christian? I see great flaws in each position. Is it not much better just to be ready as a genuine Follower of Jesus Christ? I wonder if the obsession of when Jesus will return, is exceeding the main issue of knowing and following Jesus Christ. I see lots of end time meetings, and they do draw a big crowd with bigger offerings, and they do scare people to go down at alter call. But I really question how many really surrendered to Chris forever. Tim Lahey has done more to spread the rapture theory, in his fictional story books than anyone. Glad h made so much $. I think t hurt a lot people and their faith that faltered, based of "LEFTBEHIND" instead of the truth, the BIBLE>

NoHype · Jan 21, 2014

farout said:
Eric: Before 1820 with Darby theory, the pre, mid, and post trib. was not even and issue. Did everyone before have it all wrong? Is it necessary, in your minds eye to believe this to be a solid Christian? I see great flaws in each position. Is it not much better just to be ready as a genuine Follower of Jesus Christ? I wonder if the obsession of when Jesus will return, is exceeding the main issue of knowing and following Jesus Christ. I see lots of end time meetings, and they do draw a big crowd with bigger offerings, and they do scare people to go down at alter call. But I really question how many really surrendered to Chris forever. Tim Lahey has done more to spread the rapture theory, in his fictional story books than anyone. Glad h made so much $. I think t hurt a lot people and their faith that faltered, based of "LEFTBEHIND" instead of the truth, the BIBLE>

That confusion still must playout brother. If it weren't for all the loosely Bible based deceptive theories of men then the grand deception for the last days our Lord Jesus and His Apostles warned us about would not have its effect. All we can do is plant seeds and hope they stop listening to those men.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 21, 2014

farout said:
Eric: Before 1820 with Darby theory, the pre, mid, and post trib. was not even and issue. Did everyone before have it all wrong? Is it necessary, in your minds eye to believe this to be a solid Christian? I see great flaws in each position. Is it not much better just to be ready as a genuine Follower of Jesus Christ? I wonder if the obsession of when Jesus will return, is exceeding the main issue of knowing and following Jesus Christ. I see lots of end time meetings, and they do draw a big crowd with bigger offerings, and they do scare people to go down at alter call. But I really question how many really surrendered to Chris forever. Tim Lahey has done more to spread the rapture theory, in his fictional story books than anyone. Glad h made so much $. I think t hurt a lot people and their faith that faltered, based of "LEFTBEHIND" instead of the truth, the BIBLE>

The tribulation period has not started yet. Half of the worlds population will die in the first half while the antichrist gains control.

farout · Jan 25, 2014

Eric E Stahl said:
The tribulation period has not started yet. Half of the worlds population will die in the first half while the antichrist gains control.

Could you give some Scripture to help me o this please?

rodd · Jan 26, 2014

farout said:
Eric: Before 1820 with Darby theory, the pre, mid, and post trib. was not even and issue. Did everyone before have it all wrong? Is it necessary, in your minds eye to believe this to be a solid Christian? I see great flaws in each position. Is it not much better just to be ready as a genuine Follower of Jesus Christ? I wonder if the obsession of when Jesus will return, is exceeding the main issue of knowing and following Jesus Christ. I see lots of end time meetings, and they do draw a big crowd with bigger offerings, and they do scare people to go down at alter call. But I really question how many really surrendered to Chris forever. Tim Lahey has done more to spread the rapture theory, in his fictional story books than anyone. Glad h made so much $. I think t hurt a lot people and their faith that faltered, based of "LEFTBEHIND" instead of the truth, the BIBLE>

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians about "left behind" theories that disturbed the church, this is just another assault upon the minds of believers by Satan and his false prophets. Jesus told us in the last days many false prophets would arise to do the church much harm, so I'm not surprised these books exist.
As for the different rapture theories, they're not all correct, I understand, but one is! That's for us to explore.
Personally I'm a mid tribber.

And then we have the 'A' millennialist theory that prophecy in scripture is actually not prophecy but history, that all the words of wrath have been fulfilled, this is a theory mostly employed by those in main stream churches closely aligned with secular government for obvious reasons. To avoid persecution and the displeasure of the authorities.

I'm a pre-millenialist, I have no doubts that future prophetic writings were not history books at their time of writing, the kingdom of Christ will be full and actual in presence not just the spirit within us, and his rule in the spiritual realms in the mystical sense.
That theory denies the meaning and truthfulness of the purpose of the scripture and renders the prophecies unintelligible. The bible says, "immediately after those days" you will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds and with great glory, immediately after did not happen in 70AD at the fall of Jerusalem, nor was it a global event.
It will happen in the fullness of context, just as the fall of Jerusalem was actual in real time.
So I'm a Pre-Millenialist according to the classifications.

Mid Trib rapture also, because revelation makes it clear that in the beginning of the last 7yrs when Antichrist is revealed we will experience his persecution for 42 months. The scripture says we will face the possibility of death at the hands of the establishment in that time. At that point Christ will come for the bride as a thief in the night, I think there's enough in the word to suggest this expectation.

Farout, why do some people jump to the conclusion and make judgements on those who are trying to understand this area of God's word to the negative, as for Tim Lahey, is he a mischief maker stirring up the old Thessalonian issue, I don't know but God does.
Personally I'd listen to him if I knew him, but I'd be doing my own research and ask God on the matter. That way you'd be allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you into truth and not some pop writer of what could be loosely termed Christian books.
People can focus on prophecy and live the Christian life too, they aren't mutually exclusive.

farout · Jan 26, 2014

rodd said:
Paul wrote to the Thessalonians about "left behind" theories that disturbed the church, this is just another assault upon the minds of believers by Satan and his false prophets. Jesus told us in the last days many false prophets would arise to do the church much harm, so I'm not surprised these books exist.
As for the different rapture theories, they're not all correct, I understand, but one is! That's for us to explore.
Personally I'm a mid tribber.

And then we have the 'A' millennialist theory that prophecy in scripture is actually not prophecy but history, that all the words of wrath have been fulfilled, this is a theory mostly employed by those in main stream churches closely aligned with secular government for obvious reasons. To avoid persecution and the displeasure of the authorities.

I'm a pre-millenialist, I have no doubts that future prophetic writings were not history books at their time of writing, the kingdom of Christ will be full and actual in presence not just the spirit within us, and his rule in the spiritual realms in the mystical sense.
That theory denies the meaning and truthfulness of the purpose of the scripture and renders the prophecies unintelligible. The bible says, "immediately after those days" you will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds and with great glory, immediately after did not happen in 70AD at the fall of Jerusalem, nor was it a global event.
It will happen in the fullness of context, just as the fall of Jerusalem was actual in real time.
So I'm a Pre-Millenialist according to the classifications.

Mid Trib rapture also, because revelation makes it clear that in the beginning of the last 7yrs when Antichrist is revealed we will experience his persecution for 42 months. The scripture says we will face the possibility of death at the hands of the establishment in that time. At that point Christ will come for the bride as a thief in the night, I think there's enough in the word to suggest this expectation.

Farout, why do some people jump to the conclusion and make judgements on those who are trying to understand this area of God's word to the negative, as for Tim Lahey, is he a mischief maker stirring up the old Thessalonian issue, I don't know but God does.
Personally I'd listen to him if I knew him, but I'd be doing my own research and ask God on the matter. That way you'd be allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you into truth and not some pop writer of what could be loosely termed Christian books.
People can focus on prophecy and live the Christian life too, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Thanks, for your onion. I really want Scripture t prove your points, please

NoHype · Jan 26, 2014

farout said:
Thanks, for your onion. I really want Scripture t prove your points, please

Rodd is correct, and the reason why is because I believe he has studied not just the prophecies for the end in New Testament Scripture, but the Old Testament prophets also. They both go together, even as Apostle Peter reminded us in 2 Peter 3:2.

The thing about study in the Old Testament prophets is that God placed many end time prophecies within them but mixed within sections that were historical. I have no doubt our Heavenly Father did that so those things would only be revealed to those who actually study those Books line upon line not skipping anything, rightly dividing the timelines.

Many times I see someone who preaches NT prophecy will refer back to one of the OT prophets with misplacing the timeline of the OT Scripture. It reveals to me they were just looking for a couple verses in support for what they were covering from the NT, and hadn't really studied the OT prophet completely in context line upon line.

Concerning Apostle Paul's Thessalonians Epistle, he did have to correct a theory that was going around among them about the timing of Christ's return. It's in 2 Thess.2 though, not 1 Thess.4. Per 2 Thess.2, some among the Thessalonian Church were spreading lies about the timing, even fake letters with trying to pass them off as being written by one of the Apostles. This is why Paul was so specific to not let any man deceive us, and with the events in 2 Thess.2 that the 'man of sin' (Antichrist) and false worship in the temple at Jerusalem must come first prior to Christ's return and our gathering to Him. (That is how the early Church fathers of the 2nd century also understood that 2 Thess.2 chapter, see Irenaeus, Hippolytus, etc.)

In Matt.24 and Mark 13, Jesus gave 7 signs of the end that align with the events of Revelation's Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. The final sign He gave was that of His second coming. So it should be obvious why false prophets want to try and push all that back in history instead of being about the very end of days. Within that Jesus was specific about His coming after the "great tribulation" He taught there (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

farout · Jan 26, 2014

NoHype said:
Rodd is correct, and the reason why is because I believe he has studied not just the prophecies for the end in New Testament Scripture, but the Old Testament prophets also. They both go together, even as Apostle Peter reminded us in 2 Peter 3:2.

The thing about study in the Old Testament prophets is that God placed many end time prophecies within them but mixed within sections that were historical. I have no doubt our Heavenly Father did that so those things would only be revealed to those who actually study those Books line upon line not skipping anything, rightly dividing the timelines.

Many times I see someone who preaches NT prophecy will refer back to one of the OT prophets with misplacing the timeline of the OT Scripture. It reveals to me they were just looking for a couple verses in support for what they were covering from the NT, and hadn't really studied the OT prophet completely in context line upon line.

Concerning Apostle Paul's Thessalonians Epistle, he did have to correct a theory that was going around among them about the timing of Christ's return. It's in 2 Thess.2 though, not 1 Thess.4. Per 2 Thess.2, some among the Thessalonian Church were spreading lies about the timing, even fake letters with trying to pass them off as being written by one of the Apostles. This is why Paul was so specific to not let any man deceive us, and with the events in 2 Thess.2 that the 'man of sin' (Antichrist) and false worship in the temple at Jerusalem must come first prior to Christ's return and our gathering to Him. (That is how the early Church fathers of the 2nd century also understood that 2 Thess.2 chapter, see Irenaeus, Hippolytus, etc.)

In Matt.24 and Mark 13, Jesus gave 7 signs of the end that align with the events of Revelation's Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. The final sign He gave was that of His second coming. So it should be obvious why false prophets want to try and push all that back in history instead of being about the very end of days. Within that Jesus was specific about His coming after the "great tribulation" He taught there (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27).

Thanks, that helps me.

rodd · Jan 26, 2014

farout said:
Thanks, that helps me.

I've quoted some Thessalonians and some Revelation, that's about it. A verse that convinces me of a mid trib rapture is Rev Chpt 13: 5+7, because if you go back to Chpt 7,
(back to the future, sort of) we the church are in heaven around the throne when the 144,000 arrive, who've gone through the great trib period of wrath.
I conclude then that we must have left earth before them,.... before the last 42mths of wrath kicks in!..... Reason being, all wrath was absorbed by Christ on the cross, we will experience persecution from Antichrist for 42mths, but wrath from God never! Therefore I conclude the rapture must be mid tribulation.
I hope I didn't come across as arrogant because your experience is a little different than mine.
I'm used to hostile opposition and having to defend my position...so I probably got on the front foot a little to heavy.
Hope I didn't offend to much.
That said, your comments gave us opportunity to discuss some important matters, so thanks.

Thanks NoHype, what you said in your last paragraph is so true, keep posting.

NoHype · Jan 27, 2014

rodd said:
Thanks NoHype, what you said in your last paragraph is so true, keep posting.

Hi Rodd,

You do realize what our Lord Jesus said there in Matt.24:29-31 places His coming and our gathering after the tribulation?

The scenario I see is a post-tribulational coming and gathering. I'm unmovable on the layout in Daniel about the events of the final "one week" too (i.e., 2 twelve hundred and sixty day periods). So I count the first 1260 days as trib timing also, even though the abomination of desolation isn't setup until the first 1260 days has ended. The last period of 1260 days is what I believe our Lord Jesus has shortened.

Concerning Rev.7, if you'll look closely at Rev.7:9 forward to the end, you should discover how that is actually a timeline forward view for after Christ has returned.

Rev 7:13-17
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(KJV)

The idea that they washed their robes in the Blood of The Lamb means they suffered for Christ, through the trib. The living waters, no tears, no heat, no hunger, etc., are pointers to Christ's Millennial reign in Jerusalem per the end of Revelation.

Those of Rev.7:9 actually represent the sealed of the Gentiles, an unknown multitude. The 12,000 of each tribe of Israel represent those sealed of the seed of Israel. That sealing is in prep for them to go through the trib and not be deceived by the Antichrist.

rodd · Jan 27, 2014

NoHype,

This portion of revelation is very insightful for our understanding of the plan of God inside the tribulation. A-Millenialists actually use these verses to deny a rapture and tribulation.

They understand the millennium to be an undetermined amount of time that we are in at present, with Christ's rule and reign explained away as just a spiritual rule. They're obviously not literalists, but are so insistent on the non-literal, I wonder what then they can believe in the literal?

I clearly see the small group in Chpt 7 as the Jewish remnant that is sealed for their protection as they endure the great tribulation, in verse 13-17 they arrive in heaven to join Gentile believers.

The Gentiles have been at the marriage supper while the small group have gone through the tribulation's time of wrath. The rhetorical is focused on them only imo, this makes sense and room for the many other prophetic occurrences we believe about in the time of tribulation.
It allows for the 2 groups gentile/jew, reason for a split in the 7 year period, a rapture, a time of Christ coming for the bride as a thief in the night, the enactment of the parable of the ten virgins and probably much more.
Does this then teach that no Gentiles are saved in the last 3.5 yrs, and the church have been raptured at the midway point?....... after they've experienced the persecution of antichrist for the first 42mths, I think it must.
I also see the tribulation as 7 years, but there's a huge divide at the halfway point, wrath of AC/wrath of God. What you said about placing our gathering and his coming after tribulation could well be the trib we experience in the first half under AC, this would balance all other scenarios and accord with other prophetic scripture. Your Matt 24:29-31 interpretation.

I don't know if we're on the same page here, but if not we're close. I need a little more time to look through what you've written and this scripture as I'm rushed atm, appreciate the discussion.

eddieb · Jan 27, 2014

rodd said:
I've quoted some Thessalonians and some Revelation, that's about it. A verse that convinces me of a mid trib rapture is Rev Chpt 13: 5+7, because if you go back to Chpt 7,
(back to the future, sort of) we the church are in heaven around the throne when the 144,000 arrive, who've gone through the great trib period of wrath.
I conclude then that we must have left earth before them,.... before the last 42mths of wrath kicks in!..... Reason being, all wrath was absorbed by Christ on the cross, we will experience persecution from Antichrist for 42mths, but wrath from God never! Therefore I conclude the rapture must be mid tribulation

this is interesting you draw conclusion of mid trib rapture upon the scriptures of Rev. 13:5-7 with reference to chapter 7 because i draw conclusion from chapter 13 for post trib. I base that on in chapter 13 it does not actually say Jesus came back yet but that to the beast was given to make war with the saints and overcome them. now here is where I must give emphasis to I believe to be out of the body is to be in the presence of God. I base this on what Jesus told one of the men he was crucified with... this day you will be in paradise with me. but also another scripture in revelations back even further than your reference to chapter 7 and I think chapters 6, 7, and 8 are somewhat chronological due to chapter 8 starting out with the seventh seal with chapter 6 being the other 6 seals. my reference is rev 6:10-11 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This scripture shows not only the martyrs will be with God after they are killed but that they are there before "the rapture" due to some saints are still on earth.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
In revelations chapter 8 it starts with the seventh seal and then goes to the trumpets sounding.

I am genuinly interested in hearing more about mid trib points so please share with me your views on what i have shared. I have spent years of time studying this topic and still there is much of it obscure to me and many times i have given up saying I wont know until it happens but when it does will be unable to miss it(If I am alive in the flesh then), but i still come back to this topic of study again and again.

rodd · Jan 28, 2014

Great to hear from you eddieb, will get back tomorrow and read what you've written thoroughly.
God Bless.

NoHype · Jan 28, 2014

rodd said:
NoHype,

This portion of revelation is very insightful for our understanding of the plan of God inside the tribulation. A-Millenialists actually use these verses to deny a rapture and tribulation.

They understand the millennium to be an undetermined amount of time that we are in at present, with Christ's rule and reign explained away as just a spiritual rule. They're obviously not literalists, but are so insistent on the non-literal, I wonder what then they can believe in the literal?

Yes, I'm aware of what the amillennialists believe, I don't hold to their doctrine on those things. If I belong to any seminary category of men it would be pre-millennial and post-tribulational. Yet I do not agree with all the doctrines those two schools have either. I try to let God's Word interpret Itself and leave the leaven makers to their own work which will also be tried by fire.

I clearly see the small group in Chpt 7 as the Jewish remnant that is sealed for their protection as they endure the great tribulation, in verse 13-17 they arrive in heaven to join Gentile believers.

I don't see that in that Scripture, simply because the elders around the throne are also shown back in Rev.4, another Scripture which many have misled themselves with wrongly thinking it's about a rapture of the Church. Both of those views about the elders are after Christ's coming when the rewards (like the crowns) are handed out.

The Gentiles have been at the marriage supper while the small group have gone through the tribulation's time of wrath. The rhetorical is focused on them only imo, this makes sense and room for the many other prophetic occurrences we believe about in the time of tribulation.

Many are confused about the wrath Apostle Paul said is not upon those of us in Christ Jesus per 1 Thess.5. There's Satan's wrath in the last days, and then there's God's wrath on the very last day of this present world when Jesus returns on the Day of The LORD. God's wrath poured out on the wicked on the last day is the specific 'wrath' idea Paul was referring to there in 1 Thess.5. I think you know this, but I mention it for other brethren that might read this.

The fact that Rev.9 reveals God's elect are present when the locusts do their stinging for five months upon those not sealed is another Scripture proof that Christ's gathering of His Church is not during the tribulation. Some of those sealed with God's sealing will be delivered up and killed (i.e., like those under the altar on the 5th Seal). It doesn't mean those receive their reward yet at that time, for those are still waiting for the end and asking God about it, and told to wait just a little while longer until their brethren on earth are killed as they were.

I don't know if we're on the same page here, but if not we're close. I need a little more time to look through what you've written and this scripture as I'm rushed atm, appreciate the discussion.

I think we're fairly close, just not on the specific timing of Christ's gathering of His Church.

rodd · Jan 28, 2014

The scene in chpt 4 is John in heaven witnessing the act of Christ winding up what the bible calls this present evil age, which allows for the spirit of restrain to be lifted, and the final acts that lead into the tribulation to begin, the first 4 seals.
I believe the first two have happened, the 'War on Terror 'as it's termed.

It is a futuristic vision John is having so these elders would have passed on in this life, chapter 4. And they have assumed their roles, the crowns maybe later, God knows, but we must remember on the mountain of transfiguration Moses and Eliiah appear gloriously and spoke with Christ on the mountain. Our souls are with God after death.
But the Jewish remnant I'm referring to (chpt 7) are those still in the flesh at the midway point of the 7 years, these 144,000 of the Jews are not believers in Christ but are a chosen remnant to be saved. Chpt 7:4 says it 144,000 from the tribes, meaning ethnic Israel, obviously before the devastation about to be inflicted upon the earth and mankind.

Chpt 9:4, about the locusts, proves the wrath second half, rapture midpoint truth, they were told to harm all the people on earth, apart from the 144,000 sealed and protected. No mention of the saints here, so I ask you, where do you think they are? The beloved of sons of God. The scene in verse 7 tells us and shows us where, while these 144,000 are still experiencing life on planet earth during the time of Gods wrath the last 3.5 years of the book of Revelation.

If we can see the distinction set by God in the first 42 mths and then last period of the 7yr trib, it's obvious that the saints met the Lord in the air at the mid point stage. Satan (AC) sets up his tyrannical rule in the first 42 mths Rev 13:5, and we suffer under him 13:7.

Next 42 mths it's God's turn, the dead in Christ rise, not the unbelieving dead, so then, this is our "Day of the Lord" as opposed to the world's version of "day of the Lord" which is a day of woe and judgement. If you read 2 Thess Chpt 2, you'll see the special coming for the believers is also a "Day of the Lord," nothing referring to a wrathful day pertaining to the saints. This is the time of translation when one goes another is left it happens after the 5th seal Chpt 6v 9-11 or midpoint after that we clearly see judgements.

If you read Jude v14, you should get the picture of the saints returning at the end with Christ to planet earth to judge all on the earth and take up rule and reign.

All the action of God in the last 42 months of judgements and our point of position, are really to do with the fact that we are not under the judgement or the wrath of God, because we belong to Christ, that's the issue that sticks, are we under condemnation and therefore judgement, the answer is NO! Does God make distinctions between his own and the world, yes he does.
Romans 5v9, Since we have been justified by is blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him. Include v10+11.

rodd · Jan 28, 2014

eddieb said:
this is interesting you draw conclusion of mid trib rapture upon the scriptures of Rev. 13:5-7 with reference to chapter 7 because i draw conclusion from chapter 13 for post trib. I base that on in chapter 13 it does not actually say Jesus came back yet but that to the beast was given to make war with the saints and overcome them. now here is where I must give emphasis to I believe to be out of the body is to be in the presence of God. I base this on what Jesus told one of the men he was crucified with... this day you will be in paradise with me. but also another scripture in revelations back even further than your reference to chapter 7 and I think chapters 6, 7, and 8 are somewhat chronological due to chapter 8 starting out with the seventh seal with chapter 6 being the other 6 seals. my reference is rev 6:10-11 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This scripture shows not only the martyrs will be with God after they are killed but that they are there before "the rapture" due to some saints are still on earth.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
In revelations chapter 8 it starts with the seventh seal and then goes to the trumpets sounding.

I am genuinly interested in hearing more about mid trib points so please share with me your views on what i have shared. I have spent years of time studying this topic and still there is much of it obscure to me and many times i have given up saying I wont know until it happens but when it does will be unable to miss it(If I am alive in the flesh then), but i still come back to this topic of study again and again.

eddieb,
Great to be able to discuss these things with you, Chpt13 is (to me at least) basically the time of the fifth seal or first 42mths of the tribulation where antichrist is established as global dictator on everything from politics to morality so he determines the world's values.
That's why I think he must be more than just a political entity who only enforces laws and rules, but he defines what is acceptable or not, ethically and morally.

The martyrs of the fifth seal are obviously those that have died for Christ through the ages, as the tribulation hots up some of us will be killed for the testimony of Christ in the first 42 mths. This accords as is stated Chpt13 time of antichrist v10, and refers back to the request of the martyred saints in heaven speaking directly to God. If you look at it this way you'll see it balances.
IMO the antichrist will be this current pope, I have no doubt about that. We see in Rev 13:12 their type of authority is the same, the beast from the Sea and the Beast from the Earth, and it's not secular only but spiritual, causing men to worship the second beast. The second beast is a mystery, the one that comes up out of the pit who has died, and his appearing shocks the world. Very Interesting.

God Bless.

My take on Rev 8, is after the sixth seal which is essentially from verse 12-14. Then v15-17 is the overview that finishes that chapter. Chpt8 is further into the time of judgement in the last 42mths. My opinion is there is no church on the earth after the 5th seal and certainly not at the beginning of the sixth seal.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 28, 2014

eddieb said:
I am genuinly interested in hearing more about mid trib points so please share with me your views on what i have shared. I have spent years of time studying this topic and still there is much of it obscure to me and many times i have given up saying I wont know until it happens but when it does will be unable to miss it(If I am alive in the flesh then), but i still come back to this topic of study again and again.

eddieb · Jan 28, 2014

rodd said:
eddieb,
Great to be able to discuss these things with you, Chpt13 is (to me at least) basically the time of the fifth seal or first 42mths of the tribulation where antichrist is established as global dictator on everything from politics to morality so he determines the world's values.
That's why I think he must be more than just a political entity who only enforces laws and rules, but he defines what is acceptable or not, ethically and morally.

The martyrs of the fifth seal are obviously those that have died for Christ through the ages, as the tribulation hots up some of us will be killed for the testimony of Christ in the first 42 mths. This accords as is stated Chpt13 time of antichrist v10, and refers back to the request of the martyred saints in heaven speaking directly to God. If you look at it this way you'll see it balances.
IMO the antichrist will be this current pope, I have no doubt about that. We see in Rev 13:12 their type of authority is the same, the beast from the Sea and the Beast from the Earth, and it's not secular only but spiritual, causing men to worship the second beast. The second beast is a mystery, the one that comes up out of the pit who has died, and his appearing shocks the world. Very Interesting.

God Bless.

My take on Rev 8, is after the sixth seal which is essentially from verse 12-14. Then v15-17 is the overview that finishes that chapter. Chpt8 is further into the time of judgement in the last 42mths. My opinion is there is no church on the earth after the 5th seal and certainly not at the beginning of the sixth seal.

ok so you refer to the first 42 months. I believe there is only 42 months or 72 weeks or three and a half years based on 30 day months, which the jewish calendar is lunar based and has a 30 day or night cycle full to fade and back to full. This makes me wonder what scriptures you are using to base there is more than one 42 months period. I base that there is only one period of 42 months on that its three and a half years which lines up with "a time and a times and a half time" and that in every instance I can find it is always the same time weather in dainel or revelations. based on this I see there is similarities to when the rapture will be but our views differ from the duration of the great trib. Interesting.

now as far as the fifth seal i think the church is still on the earth due to verse 11. Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,were killed just as they had been.
this shows saint on the earth are yet to be killed. now as far as the 6th seal there is nothing directly in the passage here that says yay or nay, however if we look to the seventh seal where the angels are given trumpets (8:2)And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.....
fast forward to the fifth trumpet this is talking about the locusts having power to sting like scorpions and to torment for 5 months in (9:4) it says They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
this leads me to believe since they were told this there are still saints on the earth at this time. I mean why tell em not to hurt people with Gods seal in their head if they aint there? and if we continue on to 11:15 here it seems to me in the seventh trump it speaks of returning of The Lord. and in corinthians it says at the last trump the dead are raised and we will be changed.
that is what leads me to believe post trib. as I said earlier I am interested to hear what you have to say about multiple 42 month periods. If you could shed some light on as to why you think this (considering i have not misread) i would appreciate it.

now just as a side note and interesting topic to kick around I believe we are in revelations round about chapter 12:7-17, where it talks about the war in heaven where Micheal overcomes "the great dragon" and casts him to earth so he can begin going after Isreal/the woman and then in verse 16 prevails not and then in verse 17 becomes "wroth with the woman" and goes on to attack the remnant of her seed, which is christians. I futher think on this because matt 24:8-9.
All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake

if you study the meaning of "the beginning of sorrows" in verse 9 it literaly means labor pains as it speaks of the woman in travail in rev. 12:1-6. But then it breaks in verse 9 to then they shall deliver you up to be afflicted and shall kill you. This is the reason I keep looking in the news for anything to do with war on Israel and I look up in the night sky for a third less stars because it says in rev 12:4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. perhaps the stars have already been swept out as maybe its referring to past tense, but still I am watching.

God bless you too.

eddieb · Jan 28, 2014

Eric E Stahl said:
<style>  </style> The Five Phases of the First Resurrection

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8 <acronym>KJV</acronym>

(2) The Holy Spirit and the church age saints are caught up to heaven before the antichrist Is given power by God. 2Thessalonians 2:3-12 <acronym>KJV</acronym>,

(3) The mid tribulation catching up will include the two witnesses Revelation 11:3,7-14 <acronym>KJV</acronym>, the 144,000 sealed Jews from Revelation chapter 7 who where redeemed from the earth. Revelation 14:1-4 <acronym>KJV</acronym>, and the redeemed dead saints from the first half of the Tribulation. See Revelation 15:1-4 <acronym>KJV</acronym>

(4) The dead saints from the last half of the tribulation are redeemed from the earth after the tribulation. Revelation 20:4 <acronym>KJV</acronym>

(5) The dead saints from the Kingdom age will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with the second resurrection sinners. Revelation 20:11-15 <acronym>KJV</acronym><acronym></acronym>
<acronym></acronym>

are you saying there will be more than one "rapture"?

and once we start talking about the thousand year reign i get lost real quick. not that I dont believe it to be so just I dont really understand that part. and it does kinda bug me because my granddaddy was a preacher and I heard him preach on that several times as a little boy but my mind just has never wrapped around it.

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