NEW HEAVEN/NEW EARTH - THE ETERNAL HOME OF EVERY SAVED BELIEVER IN CHRIST JESUS

[Brother-Paul]

Greeting brother Dave @Dave M

I am not saying which goes first and which goes last, let the Spirit guide us my friend. Every time I study these scriptures something else shows up.

We are aware that there are a lot of questions yet, we know we will not get answers to them all, but we also have faith that we will gain additional insights, to God be the Glory, in Jesus Name.

It may seem strange to move from the Current Heaven study to a study of the Future New Heaven/New Earth leaving out the Millennium period. But there are lots of thoughts about the Millennium Period, and lots of other items that can influence our thoughts.

If we continue to follow through the current study of the New Heaven/New Earth and New Jerusalem, we have followed scripture so far which firstly gave us a picture of the New Jerusalem coming down 'onto' the New earth, thus linking Heaven and Earth again. We have considered what the New Jerusalem is like from the outside, and from the inside, there is the final part of Rev chapter 22 to finish, then we can journey outside the City Gates, onto the New Earth. We can consider how different it will be to now, what we may be able to do in our Glorious bodies and what we maybe can't do. A lot will not be backed by scripture in full, some partly, but it will I think to discuss these things. May be they will help us understand the Falling away, I like you my friend will wait and see.

Thank you for taking part, it is a topic many shy away from, it is a topic many don't understand, but ALL scripture is given for a reason and if this is to be our future home as saved believers isn't it right, isn't it important to at least suss out from scripture as much as we possibly can.

I do hope others are enjoying the study as much as I am, why did I start it, Lord only knows, there are more people on here that know more than me, numerous times I have asked and prayed Lord help. But I want to know about my eternal home, if there are things we should be aware of regarding the falling away, I want to know now so as to not fall into them.

May the Lord truly bless you brother, Jesus loves you I do too.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Parts of Revelation aren't always in chronological order, so it's hard to know. But this is the timeline as I understand it.

1. The tribulation - for 3 1/2 years. ( Rev 7-10 )
2. The two witnesses ( Rev 11:1-14; )
3. The "great" tribulation for another 3 1/2 years. ( Last half of Rev 11, Rev 15-16 )
4. The "Beast" will rise in power. ( Rev 13, Rev 17 ) The "mark of the beast" will be implemented. ( some of this is mixed with Daniel 10-12 )
3. The fall of Babylon (Rev 18 ) The term Babylon seems to be symbolic of the non-Christian "world-kingdom".
4. The marriage supper of the Lamb ( Rev 19:6-10; )
5. The Rider on the white horse comes and defeats the beast. ( Rev 19:11-21; ) Who is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
6. The Millennial Reign ( Rev 20:1-6; ) Satan will be temporarily imprisoned during this time.
7. The final rebellion of Satan ( Rev 20:7-10; ) which definitely happens after the Millennial reign.
- - - * Note here * - some believe this also the events of Rev 14:14-20; (Armageddon )
8. The great White throne judgment ( Rev 20:11-15; )
9. The New Heaven and New Earth ( Rev 21:1-8; ) which is apparently after the Millennial reign.
10. The New Jerusalem ( Rev 21:9-Rev 22:5; ) which appears to be after the New Heaven and New Earth are transformed/recreated.
- - - * Note here * - many Bible scholars believe the events of 1 Cor 15:24-28; happen after the New Jerusalem comes down

There will be some time overlap between many of these events. For example the beast will rule during the time of the Tribulation/Great Tribulation.
Also the two witnesses will witness for just about all of the Great Tribulation.

Greeting brother

Where would you place the Rapture of the church? In the Tribulation period, before the Great Tribulation period.

I do wonder about the timing of the marriage supper of the lamb which you currently suggest to be before Christ defeats the beast.
Surely would this not be after he has defeated the beast and the false prophet and locked up, bound satan away for one thousand years.

I suggest this brother as the wedding feast is for the saved souls, who have been in heaven or are part of those who were raptured.

The celebration of Christ, the bridegroom, coming together with the Church, His bride.

Revelation 19:5-21 (NKJV)
5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


Here we have another consideration. It is clear those who were beheaded will also live and reigned through the 1000 years, but who are the dead who did not live again until the 1000 years were finished, this being the first resurrection for them.

Revelation 20:4-6 (NKJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

In His Love

 

[Dave M]

I do wonder about the timing of the marriage supper of the lamb

Dont forget

Isaiah 25:6
On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples
a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine,
of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

this seems to maybe describe the marriage supper after the 1,000 year rule has begun, because prior to this verse Isaih is speaking of the 1,000 rule, but then again maybe its not in chronological order

Isaiah 25 3-4-5
3Therefore, a strong people will honor You. The cities of ruthless nations will revere You. 4For You have been a refuge for the poor, a stronghold for the needy in distress, a refuge from the storm, a shade from the heat. For the breath of the ruthless is like rain against a wall, 5like heat in a dry land. You subdue the uproar of foreigners. As the shade of a cloud cools the heat, so the song of the ruthless is silenced.…

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings again brother, the Wedding feast of the Lamb, I have mentioned above an option which, to me seemed out of place, but is after Christ locks away the devil and the beast and anti-Christ end up in the lake of fire.

But I still see another possible option for consideration...

The apostle Paul Paul says that at the very end, the Messiah will gather His entire Elect company.
Presumably this will include not only those redeemed out of this age, but also those redeemed out of His Millennial Age yet to come. (Gathering of All the elect)
We are told that He will then present ALL of those who are His to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (NKJV)
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

These verses indicate that this presentation by the Messiah, of His bride, to the Father, must surely also include the wrap-up of holy history at the end of both this age and the Millennium period.

Christ will also eventually be gathering His Elect from out of that future glorious Millennium of Messiah, His covenant people out of that future period of one thousand years. These people belong to Him. And so it seems right we should consider that they will be at the Marriage Supper as well. If this is so then it would appear that we shall be joining all the saints for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb - at the end of the Millennium Period.

So when is the Marriage Supper of The Lamb?
- Does it come at the end of this age?
- Does it come at the end of the Millennium of Messiah?
- Could it be that BOTH are true?

Scripture supports both time slots?

Comments please.

 

[saginon]

I typically don't associate the New Jerusalem with the 'New Heaven and New Earth. However, it is possible that the New Jerusalem is a city ON a different planet. Brother-Paul said, "who is teaching you this?" I learn from my own studies, and if I don't understand something - or know just what to believe - I leave it open to interpretation. That's the case with the New Jerusalem.

I do believe that after the millennium the earth is destroyed, sin has been completely conquered, and our earth has used up its usefulness. God is always making earths with people on them. We are not the only planet in the universe - or our galaxy - that's inhabited by people....

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for behold, I create a Jerusalem as a rejoicing, and her people a joy. (Isaiah 65:17-19)

Of old, You laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; yes all of them will grow old like a garment, like a cloak You will change them, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will have no end. (Psalm 102:25-27)

Looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat... Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. (2 Peter 3:12-13)

One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. Ecc 1:4-7

It took a while but the word EARTH in Ecc. 1:4 is plural. It should be worded like this..."but the earths abideth for ever."

If we say our earth last forever, that contradicts other verses. So when King Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes he used the plural form of EARTH to indicate God is forever in the earth making business.

 

[Dave M]

If this is so then it would appear that we shall be joining all the saints for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb - at the end of the Millennium Period.

So when is the Marriage Supper of The Lamb?
- Does it come at the end of this age?
- Does it come at the end of the Millennium of Messiah?
- Could it be that BOTH are true?

Scripture supports both time slots?

yes it is a tough one for sure, I have read the book over and over and over again, and get a little more each time, but I have not firm stance on the rapture timing, or the timing of the super, I know as I am sure you do a lot of people believe in the the pre -trib rapture and think the supper is during the tribulation, but as you suggest ALL of his elect wont really happen until the end of the millennium period, so to me I would say that makes good sense as the timing of the supper so that ALL can be present.

I do like you last question, what is stopping God from having more then one wedding supper?

It is a fascinating subject, and I appreciate you posting it brother

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Dave M

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Dave M

All this waiting for supper is making me hungry :grin:

Just adding a little humour in the depth of study brother. Well I was trying, my wife confirms I am very trying.

Back to topic.

Bless you.

 

[Brother-Paul]

yes it is a tough one for sure, I have read the book over and over and over again, and get a little more each time, but I have not firm stance on the rapture timing, or the timing of the super, I know as I am sure you do a lot of people believe in the the pre -trib rapture and think the supper is during the tribulation, but as you suggest ALL of his elect wont really happen until the end of the millennium period, so to me I would say that makes good sense as the timing of the supper so that ALL can be present.

I do like you last question, what is stopping God from having more then one wedding supper?

It is a fascinating subject, and I appreciate you posting it brother

I guess because we only get married once based on our Lord's teaching.

Blessings

 

[Brother-Paul]

yes it is a tough one for sure, I have read the book over and over and over again, and get a little more each time, but I have not firm stance on the rapture timing, or the timing of the super, I know as I am sure you do a lot of people believe in the the pre -trib rapture and think the supper is during the tribulation, but as you suggest ALL of his elect wont really happen until the end of the millennium period, so to me I would say that makes good sense as the timing of the supper so that ALL can be present.

I do like you last question, what is stopping God from having more then one wedding supper?

It is a fascinating subject, and I appreciate you posting it brother

Facinating in deed Dave.

I tend to make lists like B-A-C's does, but always pencilled in and subject to modification.

:smile:

 

[Sue D.]

Back to post #45 -- other planets

I typically don't associate the New Jerusalem with the 'New Heaven and New Earth. However, it is possible that the New Jerusalem is a city ON a different planet. Brother-Paul said, "who is teaching you this?" I learn from my own studies, and if I don't understand something - or know just what to believe - I leave it open to interpretation. That's the case with the New Jerusalem.

I do believe that after the millennium the earth is destroyed, sin has been completely conquered, and our earth has used up its usefulness. God is always making earths with people on them. We are not the only planet in the universe - or our galaxy - that's inhabited by people....

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; for behold, I create a Jerusalem as a rejoicing, and her people a joy. (Isaiah 65:17-19)

Of old, You laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; yes all of them will grow old like a garment, like a cloak You will change them, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will have no end. (Psalm 102:25-27)

Looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat... Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. (2 Peter 3:12-13)

One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again. Ecc 1:4-7

It took a while but the word EARTH in Ecc. 1:4 is plural. It should be worded like this..."but the earths abideth for ever."

If we say our earth last forever, that contradicts other verses. So when King Solomon wrote Ecclesiastes he used the plural form of EARTH to indicate God is forever in the earth making business.

"God is always making earths with people on them". Based on what information. While there are lots of other planets in the solar system / universe , it's been proposed that our planet earth is unique in it's placing in the solar system. Other planets that our astronauts have visited require them to use space suits to provide adequate air to breathe and protection from the outside atmosphere on those planets. There's been no evidence of other people living on those planets.

To finish my earlier thought -- we are unique in our place in that any Closer to the sun and we'd burn up and any farther away and we'd freeze.

Sci-fi movies / programs are encouraging us to believe that there Are many other people groups existing 'out there'. We human beings have been created with the ability of a great imagination.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Earth is singular.

 

[saginon]

Back to post #45 -- other planets




"God is always making earths with people on them". Based on what information. While there are lots of other planets in the solar system / universe , it's been proposed that our planet earth is unique in it's placing in the solar system. Other planets that our astronauts have visited require them to use space suits to provide adequate air to breathe and protection from the outside atmosphere on those planets. There's been no evidence of other people living on those planets.

To finish my earlier thought -- we are unique in our place in that any Closer to the sun and we'd burn up and any farther away and we'd freeze.

Sci-fi movies / programs are encouraging us to believe that there Are many other people groups existing 'out there'. We human beings have been created with the ability of a great imagination.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Earth is singular.

What I'm alluding to is that there must be humans on other planets not only in the universe but also in our own galaxy. When I look up at night and see millions of stars (esp. through a telescope) I'm in awe and know there are other humans on other planets. It would almost be senseless for God to make a galaxy with trillions upon trillions of suns with only one of them having an inhabited earth.

 

[B-A-C]

Where would you place the Rapture of the church? In the Tribulation period, before the Great Tribulation period.

LOL, I thought I could tip-toe past that one. I was brought up believing "pre-trib". I still hope this is true.
But the more I study this, I'm inclined to say mid or even post-trib. However, the truth is... I don't know.
Every point of view brings more questions.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

I can't imagine this speaking of anything other than the great tribulation.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I can only interpret this passage one way.

Mark says it the same way. When I found two passages that say the same thing, I try to pay a little more attention.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Also Revelation may be saying the same thing.

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

This may or not be "the" tribulation, but it's possible, especially given the passage below.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

At least part of the church will have to go the through the great tribulation. Will there be a rapture before this? I can't find a specific scripture that says there is.
Still many are split on this... will "some" of the church be raptured before the tribulation? I would like to think I would be, but I'm not sure this is the case.

I believe the rapture "will" happen. But I'm not sure about exactly when.

1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This passage doesn't say it will be before, during or after.
There is more to say about this and how it conflicts with what some people believe about the resurrection.
Here is a small part of that theory.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Again, this must be speaking of the tribulation. It specifically mentions the beast (and his mark). It also specifically mentions those who refuse to take the mark.
They are beheaded. My belief is that only Christians (empowered by the Holy Spirit) would have the strength to face beheading for refusing the mark.
Besides these people will rule with Jesus for a thousand years (surely this can't be unbelievers, this has to be the church).

Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

This specific verse sure causes some problems It could be taken a couple of ways.
1. Maybe part of the church was already raptured before the tribulation, but...
2. Those who were beheaded during the tribulation, reign with Jesus... but they AREN'T part of the first resurrection. Those who come to life
"after" the thousand years are the "first resurrection". If this is true, then the saints who die before the resurrection starts do not reign with Jesus
during the Millennial reign. (This isn't really a problem for me, because... ) the rest of dead (saints) come to life after this.
3. Those who were beheaded during the tribulation, reign with Jesus AND they are the first resurrection. If this is true... when the rest of the dead
(saints) come to life, are they the second resurrection? (This seems to conflict to me).

 

[saginon]

Greeting brother Dave @Dave M

I am not saying which goes first and which goes last, let the Spirit guide us my friend. Every time I study these scriptures something else shows up.

We are aware that there are a lot of questions yet, we know we will not get answers to them all, but we also have faith that we will gain additional insights, to God be the Glory, in Jesus Name.

It may seem strange to move from the Current Heaven study to a study of the Future New Heaven/New Earth leaving out the Millennium period. But there are lots of thoughts about the Millennium Period, and lots of other items that can influence our thoughts.

If we continue to follow through the current study of the New Heaven/New Earth and New Jerusalem, we have followed scripture so far which firstly gave us a picture of the New Jerusalem coming down 'onto' the New earth, thus linking Heaven and Earth again. We have considered what the New Jerusalem is like from the outside, and from the inside, there is the final part of Rev chapter 22 to finish, then we can journey outside the City Gates, onto the New Earth. We can consider how different it will be to now, what we may be able to do in our Glorious bodies and what we maybe can't do. A lot will not be backed by scripture in full, some partly, but it will I think to discuss these things. May be they will help us understand the Falling away, I like you my friend will wait and see.

Thank you for taking part, it is a topic many shy away from, it is a topic many don't understand, but ALL scripture is given for a reason and if this is to be our future home as saved believers isn't it right, isn't it important to at least suss out from scripture as much as we possibly can.

I do hope others are enjoying the study as much as I am, why did I start it, Lord only knows, there are more people on here that know more than me, numerous times I have asked and prayed Lord help. But I want to know about my eternal home, if there are things we should be aware of regarding the falling away, I want to know now so as to not fall into them.

May the Lord truly bless you brother, Jesus loves you I do too.

You mentioned the 'falling away' several times. I don't accept the churches teaching of apostasy and believe the church has it all wrong. Apostasy - falling away - has nothing to do with Christians or the church. It has all to do with the followers of the man of sin.

 

[B-A-C]

You mentioned the 'falling away' several times. I don't accept the churches teaching of apostasy and believe the church has it all wrong. Apostasy - falling away - has nothing to do with Christians or the church. It has all to do with the followers of the man of sin.

I have noticed "I don't accept" and I "believe" the church is wrong, tends to be part of many of your posts. I "think" what you believe or what you accept
doesn't matter nearly so much as what scripture says. I notice there is not a lot of scripture is your posts.

Apostasy can't be the "falling way" of the world, they are already fallen away, they are already un-saved. What are they "falling away" from? Being un-saved?
If they are falling away from being unsaved, wouldn't this mean they are going to be saved?

You can't fall out of plane, if you're not in the plane. You can't fall off a cliff unless you're on top of the cliff.
Likewise.. you can't fall away from God, unless you're already with God.

 

[saginon]

I have noticed "I don't accept" and I "believe" the church is wrong, tends to be part of many of your posts. I "think" what you believe or what you accept
doesn't matter nearly so much as what scripture says. I notice there is not a lot of scripture is your posts.

Apostasy can't be the "falling way" of the world, they are already fallen away, they are already un-saved. What are they "falling away" from? Being un-saved?
If they are falling away from being unsaved, wouldn't this mean they are going to be saved?

You can't fall out of plane, if you're not in the plane. You can't fall off a cliff unless you're on top of the cliff.
Likewise.. you can't fall away from God, unless you're already with God.

You can go to 2 Thes. 2 and quote any verse you want to show me how it applies to the church or Christians and I say there are none.

 

[B-A-C]

2 Thes 2:13; But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Thes 2:14; It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thes 2:15; So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
2 Thes 2:16; Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
2 Thes 2:17; comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

The word "brethren" here refers to members of the church. Only those who have "salvation through sanctification by the Spirit" are brethren in the church.

 

[saginon]

Consider this,

The word apostasy is only used twice in the NT. 2 Thes. 2 and Acts 21:21.

From the word 'except' in verse 3c, to the end of verse 12, the church is not implied in any way. In fact the words "but we" in verse 13 prove that Christians (the church) is not part of the apostasy!

The word 'but' is a conjunction that shows distinction and opposition to a previous statement. It opposes persons to persons or things previously mentioned or thought of. The distinction in this passage is between the followers of Christ as opposed to the man of sin and his followers. The church is not implied whatsoever.

 

[Sue D.]

Maybe it depends on what a person considers to be 'the church'.

And there's a lot of false teachings in churches these days. Churches are gradually 'falling away' and churches are led by preachers / teachers -- so what are They teaching?

2 Thessalonians 2 -- chapter 1 To the church of the Thessalonians -- a church is made up of people who are being taught something.

 

[saginon]

Maybe it depends on what a person considers to be 'the church'.

And there's a lot of false teachings in churches these days. Churches are gradually 'falling away' and churches are led by preachers / teachers -- so what are They teaching?

2 Thessalonians 2 -- chapter 1 To the church of the Thessalonians -- a church is made up of people who are being taught something.

In 2 Thes. 2 the words "falling away' are a bad translation of the word apostasia. I can agree that churches are gradually falling away but that has nothing to do with the apostasia of 2 Thes. 2.

In fact, Christianity is the only major religion that has the incorrect definition of apostasy. Every other religion views apostasy as abandoning their former political or religious affiliation and accepting another, or nothing at all. It's a revolt and rebellion and a total abandonment of your previous affiliation. A Christian can not remain a Christian or stay in a Church and be an apostate according to the correct definition of the word. Notice how the other religions define apostasy and how those definitions are similar. It's only the Christian definition that's different.

This is the web definition of apostasy.
Apostasy - (noun) 1. The act of abandoning a party or cause.
2. The state of having rejected your religious beliefs, political party, cause or sports team in favor of opposing beliefs, causes or teams.
3. A defection, renunciation, disaffiliation, abandonment or revolt from a previous association.
4. (Islamic definition) Rejection in word or deed of one's former religion.
5. (Christian definition) To fall away from the truth.