NEW HEAVEN/NEW EARTH - THE ETERNAL HOME OF EVERY SAVED BELIEVER IN CHRIST JESUS

[B-A-C]

The word apostasy is only used twice in the NT. 2 Thes. 2 and Acts 21:21.

You need to broaden your search terms.

Matt 24:10; "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Mark 4:17; and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

2 Tim 4:3; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2 Tim 4:4; and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

There are more, if I need to keep going.

 

[saginon]

You need to broaden your search terms.

Matt 24:10; "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Mark 4:17; and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.

2 Tim 4:3; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2 Tim 4:4; and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

There are more, if I need to keep going.

NONE of the verses you quoted use the word apostasy. Check it out for yourself. I can explain more tomorrow.

Goodnight.

From one thing to another....

This is a list of notable persons that have followed a religion and then publicly abandoned or publicly criticized it and attracted notable attention by this defection, or had a notable influence on society with their defection; or if the person has been notably been referred to as an apostate by other groups or people regardless whether the person accepts this label or not.

Ambedkar an ex-Hindu who became a Buddhist

Karen Armstrong ex-Roman Catholic nun who became an atheist

Julian the Apostate ex-Christian and Roman emperor

Aurelius Augustine (Augustine of Hippo) Former adherent of Manicheism who converted to Christianity and criticized Manicheism in his book called Confessions, though generally not labelled as an apostate because the term is originally used for people who leave Christianity, not for people who convert to it.

Marjoe Gortner ex-Christian

Ayaan Hirsi Ali ex-Muslim

Maria Monk Sometimes considered an apostate, though little evidence exists that she ever belonged to the religion she supposedly fled Taslima Nasrin born in a Muslim family who became an atheist.

Friedrich Nietzsche grew up in a Lutheran family and became a confirmed Christian in his teens but later became a staunch atheist

Salman Rushdie Accused of being an apostate of Islam by Ruhollah Khomeini due to the publication of his book The Satanic Verses

Baruch Spinoza excommunicated from the Jewish community Ibn Warraq ex-Muslim.

Entire kingdoms have gone into apostasy when it's ruler or king called for one and it was always to change the "national religion." I believe it was Nero who called for an apostasy FROM Judaism TO Hellenism.

 

[B-A-C]

NONE of the verses you quoted use the word apostasy.

Ummm... that was kind of my point.

 

[saginon]

The word is only used twice in the NT...
apostasy/forsake

 

[saginon]

Ummm... that was kind of my point.

So then why did you say, "You need to broaden your search terms" and then quote several verses and underline the words fall away - etc.?

 

[B-A-C]

This is the web definition of apostasy.
Apostasy - (noun) 1. The act of abandoning a party or cause.
2. The state of having rejected your religious beliefs, political party, cause or sports team in favor of opposing beliefs, causes or teams.
3. A defection, renunciation, disaffiliation, abandonment or revolt from a previous association.
4. (Islamic definition) Rejection in word or deed of one's former religion.
5. (Christian definition) To fall away from the truth.

When you look up the definition of a word. You should look up scripture that uses similar words or language.
I notice you underlined "to fall away" in your definition above.
So instead of only looking up "apostacy" (which is a different word from translation to translation)
Broaden your search terms to include these other words and language that match your definition.

Now I have to apologize to @Brother-Paul here.

But I am done with hi-jacking this thread.

 

[B-A-C]

[a feeble attempt to get this thread back on-track]

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Rev 8:12; The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.

Again... it appears the elect (at least some of them) will go through the tribulation, (at least up to the 4th trumpet anyway).

 

[Brother-Paul]

LOL, I thought I could tip-toe past that one. :smile: I was brought up believing "pre-trib". I still hope this is true.
But the more I study this, I'm inclined to say mid or even post-trib. However, the truth is... I don't know.
Every point of view brings more questions.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

I can't imagine this speaking of anything other than the great tribulation.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I can only interpret this passage one way.

Mark says it the same way. When I found two passages that say the same thing, I try to pay a little more attention.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Also Revelation may be saying the same thing.

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

This may or not be "the" tribulation, but it's possible, especially given the passage below.

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

At least part of the church will have to go the through the great tribulation. Will there be a rapture before this? I can't find a specific scripture that says there is.
Still many are split on this... will "some" of the church be raptured before the tribulation? I would like to think I would be, but I'm not sure this is the case.

I believe the rapture "will" happen. But I'm not sure about exactly when.

1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This passage doesn't say it will be before, during or after.
There is more to say about this and how it conflicts with what some people believe about the resurrection.
Here is a small part of that theory.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Again, this must be speaking of the tribulation. It specifically mentions the beast (and his mark). It also specifically mentions those who refuse to take the mark.
They are beheaded. My belief is that only Christians (empowered by the Holy Spirit) would have the strength to face beheading for refusing the mark.
Besides these people will rule with Jesus for a thousand years (surely this can't be unbelievers, this has to be the church).

Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

This specific verse sure causes some problems :smile: It could be taken a couple of ways.
1. Maybe part of the church was already raptured before the tribulation, but...
2. Those who were beheaded during the tribulation, reign with Jesus... but they AREN'T part of the first resurrection. Those who come to life
"after" the thousand years are the "first resurrection". If this is true, then the saints who die before the resurrection starts do not reign with Jesus
during the Millennial reign. (This isn't really a problem for me, because... ) the rest of dead (saints) come to life after this.
3. Those who were beheaded during the tribulation, reign with Jesus AND they are the first resurrection. If this is true... when the rest of the dead
(saints) come to life, are they the second resurrection? (This seems to conflict to me).

Greetings brother,

Last night I looked at what was to be next in our study, there was to much at that time of the day. UK is 5hrs ahead of east USA and 8 hours ahead of west USA.

Whilst I slept you tip toed forward and have quoted every verse I had in mind and even underlined the key parts.

:smile:

I will be back later, few things to do first.

 

[saginon]

[a feeble attempt to get this thread back on-track]

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Rev 8:12; The fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck, so that a third of them would be darkened and the day would not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.

Again... it appears the elect (at least some of them) will go through the tribulation, (at least up to the 4th trumpet anyway).

You mean let the derailment go in another direction. The OP isn't about the rapture or the tribulation, it's about our eternal home.

 

[Brother-Paul]

You mean let the derailment go in another direction. The OP isn't about the rapture or the tribulation, it's about our eternal home.

Greetings @saginon

No worries my friend, it is understandable, as all the items discussed though not the main topic do inter twine as they are part of the full picture of the garment woven for us. Search the scriptures we are told and as we do we see more and more things maybe not seen before, and as a result they come into the discussions. That I feel is healthy.

When we discuss together the Current Heaven I strongly resisted discussing the future heaven as so many people, commentators alike, jump to our Eternal Home. It is not quite as important with this topic of our future home the New Heaven/New Earth and the New Jerusalem, Zion, the Church, that comes down onto the new earth, so if the Rapture crops up, if the Millennium Period crops up, it is not a big issue.

brother-paul

 

[Brother-Paul]

I typically don't associate the New Jerusalem with the 'New Heaven and New Earth. However, it is possible that the New Jerusalem is a city ON a different planet. Brother-Paul said, "who is teaching you this?" I learn from my own studies, and if I don't understand something - or know just what to believe - I leave it open to interpretation. That's the case with the New Jerusalem.

Nothing wrong with learning from your own studies @saginon depending what you are reading, other that the Word of God, when you do so.

There is no way the New Jerusalem is a city on a different planet my friend, was this something you didn't understand so you left it to your own interpretation? That my friend is dangerous.

Let us look at Revelation 21

Revelation 21:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

- John saw a New Heaven and a New Earth, note, both singular. In the past scripture has always referred to the Heavens and the Earth. Heavens being multiple as scripture confirms there are 3 Heavens, but the Earth is always mentioned singular, there is only one Earth. There will only ever be one earth.

2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

- The old heaven and earth gone, the new heaven and earth replace them (probably restored). Then John saw, the Holy City, the New Jerusalem come down from Heaven from God.

3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

- Behold the tabernacle of God is with men.
- The New Jerusalem is the Church, being built up in the Current Heaven ready to come down onto the new earth, which replaces the old earth, the old earth was full of sin and the curse, the new earth will not be.

I do hope this helps you my friend. If you are unsure of anything please do ask, there is a lot of members on here with many years studying scripture, we are all learning, but it is important to learn the right way, from The Word.

Peace be with you.

 

[B-A-C]

I am bringing up the Beatitudes, but bear with me. I'll try to tie this back.

Matt 5:2; He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
Matt 5:3; "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:4; "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Matt 5:5; "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
Matt 5:6; "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Matt 5:7; "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Matt 5:8; "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Matt 5:9; "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Matt 5:10; "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:11; "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Matt 5:12; "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

The title of this thread is about the new heaven and new earth.
Verse 3 and verse 10 talk about the "kingdom" of heaven (not always the same thing as heaven itself).
But verse 5 says some will inherit the Earth. Do others not?
Verse 8 says some will see God, do others not?

This purpose of this is to ask... do all believers inherit both the new Earth and the New Heaven (which is likely the New Jerusalem).
Now I don't believe any human can inherit heaven (that is God's domain). But rather "do we have access to" both places.

No... that's not quite right either. Do some people "not have" access to both places. That's close enough.

Rev 5:10; "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

It seems this was God's original plan.

Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:28; God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

 

[Brother-Paul]

Consider this,

The word apostasy is only used twice in the NT. 2 Thes. 2 and Acts 21:21.

From the word 'except' in verse 3c, to the end of verse 12, the church is not implied in any way. In fact the words "but we" in verse 13 prove that Christians (the church) is not part of the apostasy!

The word 'but' is a conjunction that shows distinction and opposition to a previous statement. It opposes persons to persons or things previously mentioned or thought of. The distinction in this passage is between the followers of Christ as opposed to the man of sin and his followers. The church is not implied whatsoever.

So true sister.

Maybe it depends on what a person considers to be 'the church'.

And there's a lot of false teachings in churches these days. Churches are gradually 'falling away' and churches are led by preachers / teachers -- so what are They teaching?

2 Thessalonians 2 -- chapter 1 To the church of the Thessalonians -- a church is made up of people who are being taught something.

Many people think the church is the building down the road where people go every Sunday, or so go every Sunday. This is incorrect understanding of the word, it is openly accepted as many do not know different, or people are brought up in a denomination and just follow what they are told or think they understand.

The 'CHURCH' is the ekklesia, it consists of Saved believers, only the born again believers are part of the Church, together we are spiritual stones, Christ is the head of His Church.

If a person has not repented of their sins, if they have not been baptised, if they have not come to the cross and accepted Jesus into their hearts, taking up their cross daily and following and learning from Him, they ARE NOT part of the CHURCH, the Body of Christ. It does not matter what denomination you are or are not part of, it doesn't matter if you have gone to church (place of worship) every week , all your life, it doesn't matter if you are a minister, it doesn't matter what sex you are, what country you live in, what language you speak, if your name is not in the Book of Life and the Lamb, you ARE NOT part of the Church, the Body of Christ, you will not be saved, you will stand before the Lord at the Great White Throne Judgement Seat and answer to Christ for all your sins like any other none saved, none believer.

On a Sunday, or what ever day people 'go to church', only the born again saved believers are the ekklesia, the church, all others in the building, place of worship, which is not a church, are still lost souls. This includes all in the building, including any ministers, I use the term ministers to cover all, pastors, deacons, vicars, bishops, etc.

They need our prayers.

You mention above teaching, what teaching, what is being preached, that is a good question, many ministers proclaim to be Gospel believing churches, but only preach on selected readings rotated over a two year period, when they preach they do not expound The Word, they take a little of the OT reading, a little of the NT reading and a little of the Gospel, chosen because there is a theme, then give a general sermon picking up a little of each. But if the minister id not born again, he is spiritually discerned, how can he effectively preach the Truth in the Word.

The devil got into the church a long time ago, certainly around 300 AD under Constantine, with The Roman Catholic Church. It has never recovered, but one day, the True Church, the ekkesia, which is being built up in the Current Heaven now, and only includes spirit and souls of saved believers who have passed away, one day The New Jerusalem, the Church, the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ will come down to earth, the New Earth. At that time heaven and earth will be joined together again.

Note as stated earlier, scripture always refers to the Heaven(s) and the Earth, (3 heavens, 1 earth), until The New Jerusalem comes down onto the New Earth at that stage scripture refers to the New Heaven (singular) the New earth (singular) Why? Because the Tabernacle of God will be back with man, saved man, heaven and earth will be joined again.

Thanks be to God.

Bless you

 

[B-A-C]

[Here we go again]

pastors, deacons, vicars, bishops,

I agree with all except the word "vicar'. It means "substitute" or "proxy".
It implies I can't talk to God directly, so I have to go through an earthly man, who acts as my "go between" (substitute).
Now I know this still exists in some Anglican and Lutheran churches, (as well as the RCC and Mormon church) but it needs to disappear
along with the office of "priests".

There is no office of priests in the new testament. All believers are a priest. We can talk to God directly now.
(Do a google search on priesthood of believers)

Jesus is our High Priest, but we no longer have earthly "fathers" in a spiritual sense.

1 Tim 2:5; For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Heb 12:24; and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Matt 23:9; And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

1 Pet 2:9; But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Rev 5:10; "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

Heb 7:26; For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
Heb 8:1; Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

 

[Brother-Paul]

I am bringing up the Beatitudes, but bear with me. I'll try to tie this back.

Matt 5:2; He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
Matt 5:3; "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:4; "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Matt 5:5; "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
Matt 5:6; "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Matt 5:7; "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
Matt 5:8; "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Matt 5:9; "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Matt 5:10; "Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 5:11; "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
Matt 5:12; "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

The title of this thread is about the new heaven and new earth.
Verse 3 and verse 10 talk about the "kingdom" of heaven (not always the same thing as heaven itself).
But verse 5 says some will inherit the Earth. Do others not?
Verse 8 says some will see God, do others not?

This purpose of this is to ask... do all believers inherit both the new Earth and the New Heaven (which is likely the New Jerusalem).
Now I don't believe any human can inherit heaven (that is God's domain). But rather "do we have access to" both places.

No... that's not quite right either. Do some people "not have" access to both places. That's close enough.

Rev 5:10; "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

It seems this was God's original plan.

Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:28; God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Greetings brother

Another consideration on the subject... that is scripture. :smile:

Picking up a few bits can I share my thoughts brother? Thank you :grin:

This purpose of this is to ask... do all believers inherit both the new Earth and the New Heaven (which is likely the New Jerusalem).
Now I don't believe any human can inherit heaven (that is God's domain). But rather "do we have access to" both places.

My thinking on this is, the New Heaven and New Earth replace the current Heaven(s) and current earth - scripture confirms - we agree.

Firstly, considering the New Heaven and New earth, as just stated in another thread, scripture quotes the Heaven(s) and Earth, until the point we now look at.

As we know Heaven(s) in scripture are 3,
1 - heaven 1 is from earth to leaving the atmosphere and going into space.
2 - heaven 2 is space itself, as far as it will go.
3 - heaven 3 is from the end of space to the final Heaven, God's abode. The only place at present pure and free of sin.

But when we look at the creation of the New Heaven and New Earth, they are both mentioned as single items.

Is this because Heaven and Earth are joined again, the Tabernacle of God is back with man. (Saved man)

But now moving the the New Jerusalem, I read this as an additional item, another set of '3' Heaven, Earth and New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is a separate item to Heaven and Earth, the way I see it, it has to be. The New Jerusalem is the CHURCH, it is ZION, it is The Bride of Christ, and in the order given the New Heaven and New earth are created/restored first, then the New Jerusalem comes down onto the Earth.

Revelation 21:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.

Blessings

 

[Brother-Paul]

[Here we go again]



I agree with all except the word "vicar'. It means "substitute" or "proxy".
It implies I can't talk to God directly, so I have to go through an earthly man, who acts as my "go between" (substitute).
Now I know this still exists in some Anglican and Lutheran churches, (as well as the RCC and Mormon church) but it needs to disappear
along with the office of "priests".

There is no office of priests in the new testament. All believers are a priest. We can talk to God directly now.
(Do a google search on priesthood of believers)

Jesus is our High Priest, but we no longer have earthly "fathers" in a spiritual sense.

1 Tim 2:5; For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Heb 12:24; and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Matt 23:9; And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

1 Pet 2:9; But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Rev 5:10; "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

I totally agree brother,

I was at the time generalising, to make a point to our dear brother who said he makes interpretations himself when he didn't understand scripture, dangerous practice as we know.

Thanks for adding the comments, they all help to make things clear in the muddy water out there in what is called the 'Christian' church and beliefs.

Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

Now back to topic :smile:

Was it Eternal Heaven, Rapture or Millennium 100 years? :grin:

Got it, it is Eternal Heaven (with talks on Rapture and Millennium period as they come up)

Blessings

 

[saginon]

Nothing wrong with learning from your own studies @saginon depending what you are reading, other that the Word of God, when you do so.

There is no way the New Jerusalem is a city on a different planet my friend, was this something you didn't understand so you left it to your own interpretation? That my friend is dangerous.

We all understand things differently. A new heaven means a new atmosphere and a new earth means a new planet. I really doubt God will re-create this earth.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35 - “Heaven and earth will pass away.”

He also said in Mathew 5:18, "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

John said in Revelation 21:1, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more."

Isaiah said in 65:17, “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind."

Isaiah also said in 51:6, "Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look at the earth beneath; for the heavens vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment, and they who dwell in it will die in like manner; but my salvation will be forever, and my righteousness will never be dismayed."

In 2 Peter 3:13 he said, "But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

It's not dangerous at all because even if you and I are wrong - it's NOT a damnable heresy.

I do hope this helps you my friend. If you are unsure of anything please do ask, there is a lot of members on here with many years studying scripture, we are all learning, but it is important to learn the right way, from The Word.

Peace be with you.

And IF you are unsure of anything - please ask, it is important to learn the right way, from The Word

 

[Brother-Paul]

It's not dangerous at all because even if you and I are wrong - it's NOT a damnable heresy.

Although you feel it is not wrong to make assumptions of The Word, if those assumptions are kept to yourself, you believe they are right and no one can say look my friend you are wrong in your understanding here.

But if you make an assumption and it is not correct, then share it as being truth, you could misguide others by what you say.

That my friend is dangerous.

Peace be with you

 

[Sue D.]

The New Jerusalem is brought down from heaven by God, Himself. And the earth we know Today Will be destroyed -- chapter 21 of Revelation. HOW that happens sounds very mysterious. With our finite minds, it's very hard to comprehend. But God knows Exactly how it will take place.

and, honestly -- this world we're living In and Through Now seems ridiculous and horrible and hard to believe it's really happening. But it Is.