Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[KingJ]

Hi all

This thread is an offshoot of the 'false teaching 'thread here False teaching, to discuss this specific topic.

2. Non OSAS belief - undermines cross

OSAS = Once saved always saved.

Many espouse we can lose our salvation. Whilst I agree it is important to daily examine ourselves and ensure we are saved, as many wicked believe they are saved. Paul's teaching is rife with such warnings. It is pure heresy to teach that someone God has grafted into His family and washed with the blood of Jesus, can be removed.

It is a belief contrived from much cherry picking and half truths. One that mocks Christianity and stumbles the weak.

Those that believe this, should lock themselves in a room in a cabin far far away from all society. As the Christian that actually works with the lost for God, can get corrupted by them and land up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity. We should pray daily, that just like the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, we die soon after conversion.

Absolute trash. God does not mistakes of grafting demons into heaven. This entire belief is debunked with Heb 13:5. ''Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you''.

 

[KingJ]

2. Non OSAS belief - undermines cross

OSAS = Once saved always saved.

@Waggles said:

'Here you go promoting false teaching of false doctrine.'

 

[KingJ]

'Here you go promoting false teaching of false doctrine.'

@Waggles

I have said why it is false. Feel free to try convince me that a non-OSAS belief does not paint God as a 1. Wicked and 2. Fool.

Go, floor is yours.

 

[Waggles]

@Waggles

I have said why it is false. Feel free to try convince me that a non-OSAS belief does not paint God as a 1. Wicked and 2. Fool.

Go, floor is yours.

Your heart is not open to learning and understanding.
We have all on TalkJesus had this debate ad nauseum.
If you believe not the scriptures concerning faithfulness, loyalty, patience and endurance, not straying from the straight and narrow, overcoming: then what can I teach you if you
believe not the word of God.

 

[KingJ]

Your heart is not open to learning and understanding.
We have all on TalkJesus had this debate ad nauseum.
If you believe not the scriptures concerning faithfulness, loyalty, patience and endurance, not straying from the straight and narrow, overcoming: then what can I teach you if you
believe not the word of God.

Waggles, anyone can cherry pick scriptures and arrive at a belief How to know when you are cherry picking scripture.

I respect your wisdom and do not label you personally as a false teacher. Some others here also believe as you do and I have great respect for them.

The issue however that I have been unable to get any of you to prove, is the question I have asked you above.

Convince me with logic, how the following truth of a non-OSAS belief does not imply God is a wicked fool.

''Those that believe this, should lock themselves in a room in a cabin far far away from all society. As the Christian that actually works with the lost for God, can get corrupted by them and land up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity. We should pray daily, that just like the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, we die soon after conversion.''

This is what all non-OSAS believers teach. I feel you all get 'lost' in the scriptures from Paul warning all sinners of the inevitable lake of fire.

I used to believe as you do ironically. Then when I started studying I realized it is a half truth. I will give you one classic example and I beg that you just think about it logically, no preconceptions.

In 1 Cor 5, Paul calls out 'fake Christians'. Please read the entire chapter and meditate on it. He mentions ''brothers so called'' (1 Cor 5:11). He mentions that ''Christians'' must not keep company with any ''Christians'' that are fornicators 1 Cor 5:9.

1 Cor 5 is a classic example of Paul's 'modus operandi' when it comes to preaching what seems like a 'non-OSAS' message.

He refers to all in attendance as 'brethren', then says with clarity that those continuing in sin are ''brethren so called''. IE Not real brethren. This speaks to Paul speaking respecfuly to all in attendance and not making a statement implying all are truly saved and born again Christians. He starts the chapter off shocked that someone who does incest thinks he is part of the 'brethren'. He says the 'brethren' must remove him immediately from the church. Think on that. No, go to counselling, no 'second chance'. He even calls them old leaven that must be purged so the brethren in attendance can be new leaven 1 Cor 5:9, speaking to 'truly saved Christians'. A play on 2 Cor 5:17 where we are told that those that are born again are new creations in Christ.

We arrive at a non-OSAS belief as we are not God who can truly judge one's heart.

Jer 17:9-10 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Just as one act at a depth of intent like martyrdom can get you into heaven, likewise one act of true repentance can too.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

God's one act on the cross secures our eternal trust in His love, why should He think differently to us?

Your belief is on par with saying that if someone be raised from the dead after martyrdom, they can fall into sin and be sent to eternal fire and torment. It is a terrible belief, please try understand that. It most certainly paints God as a wicked fool.

 

[KingJ]

We have all on TalkJesus had this debate ad nauseum.

This is true. It will continue to take place as there is a big issue OSAS believers have with non-OSAS. You are teaching all that God is a wicked fool. It flies 100% in the face of who God is as defined by the prophets. Pay specific attention to Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

A non-OSAS belief is the very definition of a perversion of justice.

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitues for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.

- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

If any do not see that as a perversion of justice, I do not know what it is wrong with you.

 

[KingJ]

If you believe not the scriptures concerning faithfulness, loyalty, patience and endurance, not straying from the straight and narrow, overcoming: then what can I teach you if you
believe not the word of God.

We are all humans. Christians or not. The longer a human lives the more they will stumble on the straight and narrow. We need God to keep us on it. You are looking at Christianity all wrong.

My example above proves that Christian A stayed on the straight and narrow longer then Christian B, yet A goes to eternal hell according to your belief.

Your wisdom here also implies that God sees our efforts as something other then filthy rags.

There is only one thing God wants of us. A true repentance of sin Psalm 51:17.

 

[B-A-C]

Convince me with logic, how the following truth of a non-OSAS belief does not imply God is a wicked fool.

Logic doesn't have to win. The truth does.

A non-OSAS belief is the very definition of a perversion of justice.

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitues for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.

- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

If any do not see that as a perversion of justice, I do not know what it is wrong with you.

Using this logic...

A man is faithful to his wife for 40 years. Then has an affair for 1 hour. He's not guilty because of the length of time he committed adultery?

A football team is ahead and has a higher score for 59 minutes. In the last minute of the game the other team scores a goal and gets ahead... who wins?
The length of time has nothing to do with the final outcome.

Matt 20:1; "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
Matt 20:2; "When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
Matt 20:3; "And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
Matt 20:4; and to those he said, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went.
Matt 20:5; "Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.
Matt 20:6; "And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he *said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?'
Matt 20:7; "They *said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He *said to them, 'You go into the vineyard too.'
Matt 20:8; "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard *said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.'
Matt 20:9; "When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.
Matt 20:10; "When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius.
Matt 20:11; "When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,
Matt 20:12; saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'
Matt 20:13; "But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
Matt 20:14; 'Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
Matt 20:15; 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?'
Matt 20:16; "So the last shall be first, and the first last."

If the length of time determined the outcome, then those who started in the morning should get a greater reward than those who started in the evening, but they don't.

Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross​

1Pet 2:24; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.​

Jesus died on the cross, so that we could die to sin, and live in righteousness.

Matt 24:44; "For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.
Luke 12:40; "You too, be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not expect."

 

[B-A-C]

Gal 2:2; It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.

Gal 4:11; I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

1Thes 3:5; For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.

Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

It matters where you are when the game ends.

Matt 24:46; "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
Matt 24:47; "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
Matt 24:48; ''But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'
Matt 24:49; and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
Matt 24:50; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,
Matt 24:51; and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[KingJ]

Logic doesn't have to win. The truth does.

The truth is logical. If it were not, most people with working brains would not be able to be convinced. Our ''contending for the truth'' would be terribly embarrassing for us.

Acts 18:28 For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Jude 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

Using this logic...

A man is faithful to his wife for 40 years. Then has an affair for 1 hour. He's not guilty because of the length of time he committed adultery?

A football team is ahead and has a higher score for 59 minutes. In the last minute of the game the other team scores a goal and gets ahead... who wins?
The length of time has nothing to do with the final outcome.

Using your spin, I would say that person A won the football game 100 times, but lost the 101'st.

1Pet 2:24; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.​

Jesus died on the cross, so that we could die to sin, and live in righteousness.

Half truth. There is simply no such thing as a Christian that does not sin.

Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

Jesus makes us righteous to God once off and there is also an on-going 'holy to holy'. The on-going 'holy to holy' is not what saves us.

Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

 

[B-A-C]

Half truth. There is simply no such thing as a Christian that does not sin.

Luke 1:6; They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Gen 6:9; These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

Job 1:1; There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

Rev 14:5; And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

 

[Brad Huber]

The truth is logical. If it were not, most people with working brains would not be able to be convinced. Our ''contending for the truth'' would be terribly embarrassing for us.

Acts 18:28 For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

Jude 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.





Using your spin, I would say that person A won the football game 100 times, but lost the 101'st.



Half truth. There is simply no such thing as a Christian that does not sin.

Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

Jesus makes us righteous to God once off and there is also an on-going 'holy to holy'. The on-going 'holy to holy' is not what saves us.

Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

There is a huge difference between "human" logic and God's truth. If human logic ruled our lives well, why would we need God? And we DO need God.

 

[KingJ]

Luke 1:6; They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

Gen 6:9; These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

Job 1:1; There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.

Rev 14:5; And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

Blameless to God is one who walks in repentance. One who will be quick to repent. Something a true Christian will always do. Paul was a true Christian when he wrote Rom 7:15.

Blameless is therefore not 'not sinning'. Blameless is a state arrived at after repentance Acts 3:19 Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.

Only God is 'truly' good.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

______________________

Consider a marriage. Both make vows from depths of intent to never leave nor forsake each other until death do they part. In year 41 the husband commits adultery. 40 years of faithfulness and love. He will surely repent to his wife. She will weigh the depth of his repentance against his inner commitment from his marriage vows and 40 years of faithfulness. The chances of her trusting his repentance and forgiving him, welcoming him back with open arms is 9.9/10.

Then consider someone who made no marriage vows. No 40 years of faithfulness. Relationship of 4 years, in fornication, no ring, no vows. He then is unfaithful. What has the poor lady in his life got to measure his love against or basis to trust his repentance?

When one first repents, we accept marriage to Jesus.

Born again = repentance + accepting Jesus = Jesus our bridegroom.

Acts 2:38, Rev 3:20, Psalm 51:17.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

OSAS is absolutely true, “It Is finished” means paid in FULL. However, there’s caveat, which lies within the parable of the Sower. In between the dirt road and the fertile soil are two other kinds - stony ground and thorny ground, which represent SUPERFICIAL Christians and WORLDLY Christians, according to the Lord’s own explanation. Christians in these two categories have no or little spiritual growth and bear no or little spiritual fruit, therefore they’ll suffer from consequences of their sin in this life and lose their reward in the next life.

What’s up to debate, though, is that whether a superficial or worldly Christian can change by tilling the ground in his heart, receive the seed of gospel once again and allow it to take root. Some think there’s no such possibility, but I beg to differ.

 

[KingJ]

There is a huge difference between "human" logic and God's truth. If human logic ruled our lives well, why would we need God? And we DO need God.

It depends on what the matter is being discussed.

If it is something like ''God, you are destroying Sodom, what the hell is wrong with you, are you nuts?''. Then yes. We see Abraham interrogate God on Sodom's destruction. God gives him the time of day and explains His actions in Gen 18. We see this too with Moses and the Hebrews worshipping the golden calf in Exo 32. Both humans reasoning with God and God giving them the time of day, explaining Himself. They both agree with His logic. The people of Sodom were wicked, the Hebrews worshipping the golden calf were wicked.

In the case of those that teach that God sends a person who has served him for 40 years to an eternal lake of fire, do you think God, Abraham and Moses would agree with the wisdom of said individual? I think not.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

There is a huge difference between "human" logic and God's truth. If human logic ruled our lives well, why would we need God? And we DO need God.

Human logic does NOT rule our lives. Life is counterintuitive. Just take ketogenic diet for example, you’ve heard that fat makes you fat as it contains more than twice of calorie compared to same amount of carbs; but actually, fat is a slow burning fuel, that high caloric density is an advantage because it sustains you for a long time; carbs on the other hand burn very fast, you will feel hungry and tired very soon, craving for a snack to refuel, therefore ending up consuming way more calories than just fat. If fat is a log, than carbs, especially high GI food, are like twigs. Just visualize how long can you keep a fire burning with log and how long with twigs. Totally against common sense and conventional thinking, isn’t it?

 

[B-A-C]

There is a huge difference between "human" logic and God's truth. If human logic ruled our lives well, why would we need God? And we DO need God

Amen.

1Cor 3:19; For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";

 

[Brad Huber]

It depends on what the matter is being discussed.

If it is something like ''God, you are destroying Sodom, what the hell is wrong with you, are you nuts?''. Then yes. We see Abraham interrogate God on Sodom's destruction. God gives him the time of day and explains His actions in Gen 18. We see this too with Moses and the Hebrews worshipping the golden calf in Exo 32. Both humans reasoning with God and God giving them the time of day, explaining Himself. They both agree with His logic. The people of Sodom were wicked, the Hebrews worshipping the golden calf were wicked.

In the case of those that teach that God sends a person who has served him for 40 years to an eternal lake of fire, do you think God, Abraham and Moses would agree with the wisdom of said individual? I think not.

You sound nothing like Abraham in his talk with God.

 

[KingJ]

You sound nothing like Abraham in his talk with God.

I was certainly not comparing myself to him, imagine that .

I think you are missing the point of God being an open book. One who would pass our judgement of what is right and wrong.

 

[Waggles]

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; and when they should hear, straightway cometh satan, and taketh away the word sown in them.
16 And these likewise are they sown upon the rocky places, who, when they should hear the word, straightway receive it with joy;
17 and have no root in themselves, but endure a while; then when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble.
18 And others are they sown among the thorns; these are they that have heard the word,
19 and the cares of the age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And those are they that were sown upon the good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bear fruit [in] thirty and [in] sixty and [in] hundred.