Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Waggles]

2Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 Faithful the saying: for if we died together, we shall also live together:
12 if we endure, we shall also reign together: if we shall deny him, he also shall deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself.

 

[Waggles]

Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
In your patience ye shall win your souls. (NENT)
(ESV) By your endurance you will gain your lives.

G5281 ὑπομονή hupomonē
Thayer Definition:
1) steadfastness, constancy, endurance
1a) in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings
1b) patiently, and steadfastly
2) a patient, steadfast waiting for
3) a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance

 

[B-A-C]

(ESV) By your endurance you will gain your lives.

1Cor 9:26; Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
1Cor 9:27; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

... I do this, so I wont be disqualified.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I’m disappointed at this place. Seems like you people have no interest at any conversation. You just copy paste walls of text, probably without reading them.

 

[Waggles]

You just copy paste walls of text, probably without reading them.

Now that is an accusation against people who read and understand scripture and paste verses appropriate to the topic.
Read the posted verses and meditate on them.
If you think that quoted (cited) verses are not supporting a person's perspective on OSAS debate then feel free to challenge the scripture (and explain why).
All the scripture verses that I have posted challenge the false doctrine of OSAS.
Salvation is a lifelong journey ... in fact it is described as a deposit on a future redemption of those who endure to the end.

Ephesians 1:12 that we be unto praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in the Christ:
13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise,
14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto redemption of the possession, unto praise of his glory.

14 (ESV) who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
14 (Weymouth) that Spirit being a pledge and foretaste of our inheritance, in anticipation of its full redemption--the inheritance which He has purchased to be specially His for the extolling of His glory.

Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
In your patience ye shall win your souls. (NENT)
(ESV) By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

[Waggles]

1Corinthians 4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
4:2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Now that is an accusation against people who read and understand scripture and paste verses appropriate to the topic.
Read the posted verses and meditate on them.
If you think that quoted (cited) verses are not supporting a person's perspective on OSAS debate then feel free to challenge the scripture (and explain why).
All the scripture verses that I have posted challenge the false doctrine of OSAS.
Salvation is a lifelong journey ... in fact it is described as a deposit on a future redemption of those who endure to the end.

Salvation is INSTANT. You accept Yeshua, you get saved. The only quote is the Lord's last words on the cross - IT IS FINISHED. By denying OSAS, you are denying the cleansing power of His blood.

What is a journey for a lifetime is the process of SANCTIFICATION, which is the job of the HOLY SPIRIT, the promised helper. There's no need to quote any specific verse to back that up, because, first and foremost all the letters in the NT were addressed to church congregations that were ALREADY SAVED, not unbelieving heathens.

The problem is spiritual immaturiy in Heb. 4:12-14 -"You have come to need milk and not solid food." This journey is our journey of spiritual growth, it's our equivalent of the Israelites' journey in the wilderness. If there's no growth, then we'll be groaning and complaining and whining, and worst of all, we'll be longing to go back to our old days prior to salvation, just like the Israelites longing to go back to Egypt. This is known as "backsliding".

Case in point, when Yeshua was arrested in the garden, all the disciples "fled and forsook Him." (Matt. 26:56) And AFTER Yeshua rose again, AFTER Peter and John inspected the empty tomb, AFTER Yeshua appeared to the disciples, they went back to fish (John 21:2-4). It took a deja vu for the disciples to realize that this was really the Lord when they caught a huge load of fish, just like the first time Yeshua called them to His ministry. And those are the first disciples who had been with Yeshua for several years. If you don't understand this, then noen of these verses you quoted matter because you've got the wrong premise in the first place.

 

[KingJ]

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; and when they should hear, straightway cometh satan, and taketh away the word sown in them.
16 And these likewise are they sown upon the rocky places, who, when they should hear the word, straightway receive it with joy;
17 and have no root in themselves, but endure a while; then when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble.
18 And others are they sown among the thorns; these are they that have heard the word,
19 and the cares of the age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And those are they that were sown upon the good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bear fruit [in] thirty and [in] sixty and [in] hundred.

A true Christian would be verse 20. You need to understand that verse 19 speaks to the word ''becoming unfruitful / IE not taking root''.

 

[KingJ]

1Corinthians 4:1 This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
4:2 Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful.

Stewards who have truly repented of their sins and have had their heart judged by God can't but be faithful.

This is a warning to fake Christians.

 

[KingJ]

Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
In your patience ye shall win your souls. (NENT)
(ESV) By your endurance you will gain your lives.

G5281 ὑπομονή hupomonē
Thayer Definition:
1) steadfastness, constancy, endurance
1a) in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings
1b) patiently, and steadfastly
2) a patient, steadfast waiting for
3) a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance

Luke 21 speaks to the tribulation period. Verse 19 is a reference to Rev 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Today, we do not need to be martyrs to get to heaven.

Please see my post 5. This verse ironically proves OSAS with crystal clarity. Martyrdom = eternal bliss.

 

[KingJ]

2Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 Faithful the saying: for if we died together, we shall also live together:
12 if we endure, we shall also reign together: if we shall deny him, he also shall deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself.

A true Christian will not deny Jesus at a level that verse 12 speaks to.

Peter denied Jesus but recanted. A true Christian would always do likewise.

I feel I need to start a thread on what exactly a Christian is .

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I feel I need to start a thread on what exactly a Christian is .

Nowadays, anyone who believes that a man is a man and a woman is a woman.

 

[KingJ]

@Waggles

What is a Christian and how do you become one?

A Christian is best defined by John 3:16 John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. A Christian is the 'whomsoever' will believe in Jesus. Now, nobody can believe a man who walked the earth 2000...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[KingJ]

2Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we shall also reign together:

This understanding of 'our' endurance is at the heart of your confusion.

Our works are as filthy rags Isa 64:6.

The endurance Paul is alluding to is not our good works. It is walk of faith. A faith that is given to the whomsoever that truly repent of their sins. Only true Christians will endure and be able to walk the necessary walk of faith. ''If we endure'' alludes to 'if we are truly saved'. Time will tell, as fake Christians cannot endure.

We walk by a faith in Jesus that is given to us. This is Christianity 101.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

If we keep ourselves saved in our walk of faith, we can boast.

A walk that is reinforced / cemented with the assistance of the Holy Spirit / God Himself.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.
Deut 31:8 The Lord himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged.
Num 6:24-26 The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you; the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.
2 Cor 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Psalm 48:14 That this is God, our God forever and ever. He will guide us forever.
Isa 41:10 Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

All who are His, will endure. It is an inevitability. Those that don't were never part of the flock. Fake Christians are Christians 'He never knew'. Think on that.

Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

God is not a fool that would test a Christian beyond what they can bear. Cause them to fall.

Heb 13:5 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

There is simply no condemnation to those that are in Christ Jesus.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

What Rom 8:1 means is that there no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Paul's concern is not 'our endurance / keeping ourselves saved', rather us knowing whether or not we are in fact ''in-Christ''.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[Waggles]

to @KingJ and @Jonathan_Gale
you are both in denial of the scriptures that teach the Pentecostal saints of the NT church on how to stay saved.
God is true and what Jesus Christ accomplished through his death and resurrection opened the way for believers (as disciples) to obtain grace and forgiveness.
But disciples are still in this world and buffeted by the enemy and subject to temptations which does often lead to backsliding and departing from the faith.
Hence the epistles to the Spirit-filled church give much exhortation to obedience, courage and faithfulness by exercising the power of the Holy Spirit [praying in tongues and a love of righteousness].
Salvation requires a disciple to continue in the love of God and his righteousness to to remain sanctified and justified separated from the world.
Discipleship requires constant daily self motivation to walk the walk and to remain prayerful and to OVERCOME the flesh, temptations, the enemy and other snares and toils.

A great doctrinal error that underlies the falsehood of OSAS is the notion of "fake" Christians versus "true" Christians. This is nonsense and unscriptural.
A disciple is either a Christian who has sought salvation in Christ Jesus or not.
In the parable of the sower of seed into different ground Jesus does not differentiate between persons who receive the seed (the word of God, the gospel).
Rather he explains what happens afterwards; that is the lack of faithfulness and endurance by disciples and the tragic results that ensue.
Peter in his epistle to Spirit-filled Pentecostal saints writes similar. A warning that disciples (believers) can lose their way and their salvation by their negligence and slothfulness.
This has nothing to do with some disciples not being allegedly "true" Christians. Not all disciples have the personal strength to endure all things for the sake of the gospel.
Doctrinally all who are baptized in water and baptized in the Holy Spirit become disciples and have received salvation; but then afterwards comes a journey requiring continuing discipleship.
This is what Jesus is referring to in the parable of the sower and the seed.

2Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
1:6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
1:7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
1:8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

 

[Waggles]

Romans 1:7 To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 16:17 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Rom 16:19 For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil.

 

[Waggles]

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a net, cast into the sea, and gathering of every kind:
13:48 which, when it was filled, they drew up on the beach; and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast away the bad.
13:49 Thus shall it be in the consummation of the age: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous,
13:50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

The above is describing an outcome of judgement upon all who are in the kingdom of heaven - there will be found good and bad.
Those who although initially saved by belief and obedience to the gospel failed over time to overcome the world and departed from faithfulness.
I personally know of Spirit-filled Pentecostal Christians who are saved, but have decades later have departed and returned back to the world - so are they still saved? Still under grace?
The prodigal son eventually after much tribulation came to his senses and returned back to his father - tragically not all lost sheep return back to the fold.

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? Be it not so.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye are presenting yourselves as bondmen unto obedience, his bondmen ye are whom ye are obeying; whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[B-A-C]

I don't think the real problem here is "fake Christians". The Bible says these people do exist.

1Cor 5:11; But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
1Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.

There are of course "so-called" brothers in the church.

Rev 2:2; 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;

There are false apostles in the church today.

2Cor 11:13; For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.

Maybe these people were never saved in the first place. I don't dispute that at all. But the Bible mentions people that "used" to be one place, and now they are in another place.
There are bad fish - that "used" to be in the kingdom of God.

Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But they will be thrown out.

Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Mat t13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There are both wheat and tares in the kingdom of heaven. But one day, the angels will "gather out of His kingdom" some people who used to be in the kingdom.

Matt 25:8; "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'

There are people who "used" to have oil in their lamps, it isn't that they never had the oil, but they don't anymore.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Jesus says there are people who "used" to "believe for a while" but then they fell away. It wasn't that they never believed, they just don't believe now.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

It wasn't that people never were "partakers of the Holy Spirit" and never repented. But now they have fallen away... and can't be renewed "again" to repentance. (you can't do something again, if you haven't done it at least once).

Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Exod 32:33; The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

It wasn't these people never had their names in the Book of Life, but the Bible says some names will be erased or "blotted out".

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

You can't "fall away" from the faith, if you never had the faith to begin with.

2Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Peter says some people have escape defilement of the world... by the knowledge of Jesus. It wasn't that they didn't know Jesus and the way of righteousness...
It was that they did know it, and turned away from it. It wasn't that they were never washed by Jesus, they were, but they returned to the pig sty.

Jdgs 2:13; So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
Jdgs 10:6; Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.
1Kin 9:9; "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them, therefore the LORD has brought all this adversity on them.'"
2Kin 21:22; So he forsook the LORD, the God of his fathers, and did not walk in the way of the LORD.
2Chron 7:22; "And they will say, 'Because they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers who brought them from the land of Egypt, and they adopted other gods and worshiped them and served them; therefore He has brought all this adversity on them.'"

It's great that Jesus will never leave you or forsake you, but the Bible says there were plenty of people who forsook God.

There are many more passages like these, but some people just don't want to see them. They don't want to talk about these verses. But remember, whatever theology you have needs to agree with the whole Bible, even these verses.

 

[B-A-C]

There are people who believe "God would never make the mistake of trying to save someone, who He knew wasn't going to saved".

But as soon as you say that, you're back to predestination and God chooses some people but not others. You can't separate God making the choice to fail from God making choice for you. It's all or none.
Giving someone a chance to fail is not a mistake. Giving someone a chance isn't a mistake. You don't "lose your salvation" - I dislike that phrase. It's isn't like your car keys, where you accidentally lose them. No this is a willful act.
A purposeful choice on your part. You don't "lose" your salvation, you make a conscious choice to walk away from it.

If God never gives people a chance to be saved... then He is an unjust God. People can stand in front of Him on the judgment as say.. "You chose me not to be saved". "You made me fail, because you knew the future".
But no, God gives everyone a chance to be saved. He doesn't refuse anyone comes to Him. When people fail, it's not God's fault they failed. God always does His part.
When people stand before the judgment seat of God. He will tell them, you had your chance. I was revealed to you. It was your choice, your decisions that caused you to go this way. Not mine.

 

[Brad Huber]

I was certainly not comparing myself to him, imagine that .

I think you are missing the point of God being an open book. One who would pass our judgement of what is right and wrong.

My point was that Abraham was actually very humble and only asked God to spare the few righteous that might be living there, yet courageous for questioning God's coming wrath that might not be so picky(the body is not who we are, our spirits are, and if some righteous die, they will be happy in paradise, but he wanted Lot and those he might have influenced to be more godly to have more time in this portion of life). He lived by faith, and was no vegan or tree hugger, he and his men fought like tigers against many more ppl, and killed many.

You are telling others that you know the mind of God enough that He will follow what you tell them He will do. Its a LOT different than the situation with Abraham. Mind you, I am not either, but you dont seem to have his humble nature, or the willingness to accept what God's wrath will entail.