Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Brad Huber]

Dumb scenario? If it is so dumb explain to me how it misrepresent anti-OSAS. I am just putting your belief in a realistic scenario.
No, I think I know quite a bit about this topic. I have discussed it for a good portion of the last ten years.

That was not my belief in a realistic scenario, and obviously you are so adamant that you are correct, that you refuse to have an open mind on the subject. I have also spent a good many years in study and prayer over the matter, you arent alone in that, you simply chose to believe what you do. This is between you and the Lord. I dont try and persuade those cast in stone.

 

[KingJ]

That was not my belief in a realistic scenario, and obviously you are so adamant that you are correct, that you refuse to have an open mind on the subject. I have also spent a good many years in study and prayer over the matter, you arent alone in that, you simply chose to believe what you do. This is between you and the Lord. I dont try and persuade those cast in stone.

Brad, like I am so close to biting all my finger nails off in frustration.

Trying to get an anti-OSAS believer to explain to me how said belief is not a perversion of justice is killing me. It is easier to drain water out of a rock.

If my example is wrong and does not allign with your view of an anti-OSAS belief, please, pleeeeeeaaase, correct me with your correct example......

 

[backNforth]

From the OP:

...It is pure heresy to teach that someone God has grafted into His family and washed with the blood of Jesus, can be removed.

It is a belief contrived from much cherry picking and half truths. One that mocks Christianity and stumbles the weak.

"Eternal Security" is also known as "once saved always saved," or "perseverance of the saints." In other words, once someone accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, there is nothing that he or she can do to separate himself/herself from God, and they will always be saved. This is a false doctrine. Dozens of passages show, without any doubt, that those who believe in Christ can fall away if they do not practice righteousness.

Check out this Biblical list of "much cherry picking and half truths":

Parable of sower:

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13), "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away."

Fallen from grace passage:

Galatians 5:4, "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

Pruning passages:

John 15:5-6, "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans, 11:19-23, "You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."

Hebrews Passages:

Hebrews 6:4-6, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:38-39, "Now the just shall live by faith: ; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

Doctrinal Apostasy passages:

Acts 20:17,28-30, "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church...I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
1 Timothy 1:18-21, "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander"
2 Timothy 2:16-18, "But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some."
1 Timothy 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"
1 Timothy 6:20-21, "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called knowledge-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."
2 Peter 2:1, "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."
2 Peter 3:17, "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness."
2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."

Moral Apostasy passages:

1 Timothy 6:9-10, "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."
2 Peter 2:20-22, "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, A dog returns to its own vomit, and a sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
James 5:19-20, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

Revelation passages:

Revelation 2:4-5, "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."
Revelation 3:5, 'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels."
Revelation 3:16-17, "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing, and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked."

Old Testament passages:

Ezekiel 18:24-26, "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."

The fact the Bible exhorts to faithfulness proves one can be lost:

1. be "stedfast, unmoveable" (1 Corinthians 15:58).
2. "For if these things be in you" (2 Peter 1:5-11).
3. "we shall reap, if we faint not" (Galatians 6:9).
4. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
5. practice these things and God will be with you (Philippians 4:9).

Man has a free will:

Joshua 24:15, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

The Bible clearly prophesied some would fall away:

Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
1 Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

Christians are to restore the fallen:

Galatians 6:1, "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted."
James 5:19-20, "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Your name can be blotted out of the book of life:

Exodus 32:32-33, "Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."
Deuteronomy 9:14, "Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they."
Deuteronomy 29:20, "The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven."
Psalms 69:28, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
Revelation 3:5, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

After God forgives your sin, you can lose your salvation by not forgiving others:

Matthew 18:23-35, "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

 

[KingJ]

From the OP:

"Eternal Security" is also known as "once saved always saved," or "perseverance of the saints." In other words, once someone accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, there is nothing that he or she can do to separate himself/herself from God, and they will always be saved. This is a false doctrine. Dozens of passages show, without any doubt, that those who believe in Christ can fall away if they do not practice righteousness.

Check out this Biblical list of "much cherry picking and half truths":

Parable of sower:


Fallen from grace passage:


Pruning passages:


Hebrews Passages:


Doctrinal Apostasy passages:


Moral Apostasy passages:


Revelation passages:


Old Testament passages:


The fact the Bible exhorts to faithfulness proves one can be lost:

1. be "stedfast, unmoveable" (1 Corinthians 15:58).
2. "For if these things be in you" (2 Peter 1:5-11).
3. "we shall reap, if we faint not" (Galatians 6:9).
4. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
5. practice these things and God will be with you (Philippians 4:9).

Man has a free will:


The Bible clearly prophesied some would fall away:


Christians are to restore the fallen:


Your name can be blotted out of the book of life:


After God forgives your sin, you can lose your salvation by not forgiving others:

Welcome to the discussion. You have clearly only read the OP. Before I reply to your post, can you take a stab at explaining to me how the below is not a perversion of justice.

- KingJ, never serves God, repents of sins, suffers on cross next to Jesus for four hours, dies and goes to ''ETERNAL'' bliss. Forever blessed, happy and covered by the blood of Jesus.

- backNforth, serves God for fifty years. Suffers in prison for being anti LGBTQ++ for five years. In year 51 commits a few mortal sins. Dies and goes to hell, a place of torment, torturous fire, no joy, no blood covering, forever separated and in torment. All of eternity an enemy of God.

 

[lentz]

We all sin. Even after being washed. So my question would be,how depraved does a child of God have to get to loose salvation?
The prodigal went pretty low,but hung on to salvation.
How many times do you have to lie to be a liar. How many times stealing before you are a thief....so on. I dont know for sure how OSAS turns out...or not. Im just thankful for Gods mercy grace and long suffering.

 

[backNforth]

..take a stab at explaining to me how the below is not a perversion of justice. [Whose version of
"justice" - yours? or the King of kings'?]

...serves God for fifty years. [What does "serve" mean? To illustrate, for quite some time, Pharaoh
prevented the Israelites from "serving God." Were the Israelites saved or un-saved during their
period of non-"service"?] Suffers in prison for being LGBTQ++ for five years. ["Suffers"??? Again,
undefined and essentially irrelevant. All who live Godly in Christ will suffer persecution, and
doubtless many unsaved will likewise suffer "for being LGBTQ++." Also, the saved/un-saved guy
was certainly not sinless while in prison.] In year 51 [did you mean 'year 56'?] commits a few
mortal sins. [What does "mortal sins" mean? Scripturally, "mortal" rather refers to our flesh.] Dies
and goes to hell, a place of torment, tortuous fire, no joy, no blood covering, forever separated, and
in torment. All of eternity an enemy of God. [If he was once saved, he later "goes to hell" because
obviously he fell away; or, if he was not saved, he "goes to hell" because he was always unsaved.]

In this world, you (saved or un-saved) have no "right" to a "fair" or "prosperous" vapor of a life.

Scripturally, there are only two kinds of people: saints, and sinners. Saints sin, but they don't live in
that space i.e. they do not sin wilfully. And when saints do sin, they are facing Christ who advocates
for them and helps them move through it. However, when sinners sin, they are not facing Christ i.e.
they wilfully sin. They are not looking to their Advocate and thus do not receive his benefit. Those
who sin wilfully do not enter the kingdom.

The so-called churches have so brainwashed their attendees into believing that grace is some kind
of irresistible tractor beam that overrides wilfull sin. One doesn't "lose" his salvation, as if it was a
mere misplacement of some thing. One's choices to continue to live in wilfull sin are what
separates one from Christ. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[KingJ]

..take a stab at explaining to me how the below is not a perversion of justice. [Whose version of
"justice" - yours? or the King of kings'?]

...serves God for fifty years. [What does "serve" mean? To illustrate, for quite some time, Pharaoh
prevented the Israelites from "serving God." Were the Israelites saved or un-saved during their
period of non-"service"?] Suffers in prison for being LGBTQ++ for five years. ["Suffers"??? Again,
undefined and essentially irrelevant. All who live Godly in Christ will suffer persecution, and
doubtless many unsaved will likewise suffer "for being LGBTQ++." Also, the saved/un-saved guy
was certainly not sinless while in prison.] In year 51 [did you mean 'year 56'?] commits a few
mortal sins. [What does "mortal sins" mean? Scripturally, "mortal" rather refers to our flesh.] Dies
and goes to hell, a place of torment, tortuous fire, no joy, no blood covering, forever separated, and
in torment. All of eternity an enemy of God. [If he was once saved, he later "goes to hell" because
obviously he fell away; or, if he was not saved, he "goes to hell" because he was always unsaved.]

In this world, you (saved or un-saved) have no "right" to a "fair" or "prosperous" vapor of a life.

Scripturally, there are only two kinds of people: saints, and sinners. Saints sin, but they don't live in
that space i.e. they do not sin wilfully. And when saints do sin, they are facing Christ who advocates
for them and helps them move through it. However, when sinners sin, they are not facing Christ i.e.
they wilfully sin. They are not looking to their Advocate and thus do not receive his benefit. Those
who sin wilfully do not enter the kingdom.

The so-called churches have so brainwashed their attendees into believing that grace is some kind
of irresistible tractor beam that overrides wilfull sin. One doesn't "lose" his salvation, as if it was a
mere misplacement of some thing. One's choices to continue to live in wilfull sin are what
separates one from Christ. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Thanks for taking a stab at the question.

I would have liked a ''no, it is not a perversion of justice because of 1, 2 and 3.''. Or ''Yes it is a perversion of justice, but who are we to question God''.

Instead I got a mix of OSAS and anti OSAS lines. OSAS = Scripturally, there are only two kinds of people: saints, and sinners. Saints sin, but they don't live in
that space. Anti OSAS = One's choices to continue to live in wilfull sin are what separates one from Christ.
By not dealing with actual question raised you are just moving the goal post.

Take your line ''One's choices to continue to live in wilfull sin are what separates one from Christ.'' for example. Person A ''chooses'' to repent and willfully not sin whilst on a cross next to Jesus for four hours. Dies and goes to eternal bliss. Person B chooses to not live in willfull sin for fifty years and in year fifty one, due to spending so much time witnessing to prostitutes, falls into willful sexual sin for a year, dies, and goes to hell for all eternity. QUESTION - Is this a perversion of justice, YES or NO?

 

[KingJ]

Answer from every single person on this planet, except for a few Christian is: YES, this is a perversion of justice.

As such, I would have expected those who teach this to give a sensible answer. @Bill , @backNforth , @Brad Huber

But it seems, all who teach this are content with leaving the reader to think God perverts justice.

 

[james g]

It’s sad to think Jesus isn’t enough.

 

[backNforth]

It’s sad to think Jesus isn’t enough.

Amen.

The presumptuous OP with its gaslighting theme has been exposed, with Scripture, for the work of darkness it is. Beware of the (wannabee) scholars who have corrupted the covenant and led many astray (Malachi 2:8).

 

[KingJ]

Amen.

The presumptuous OP with its gaslighting theme has been exposed, with Scripture, for the work of darkness it is. Beware of the (wannabee) scholars who have corrupted the covenant and led many astray (Malachi 2:8).

Gaslighting OP? Care to explain.