Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross

[Waggles]

1Thessalonians 1:1 Paul and Silvanus, and Timothy, to the church of Thessalonians in God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
2 We thank God always for you all, making mention in our prayers;
3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith and toil of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father;
4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,

Paul is writing to Christians: that is believers who have entered the kingdom of God through the baptism of water and the Holy Spirit (with the sign of speaking in tongues).
The ekklesia, the called-out ones, who make up the church at Thessalonica are SAVED.
But, nevertheless Paul gives them warnings - for there are snares and dangers ahead for even the Spirit-filled disciple who has access to the power of God -

1Thessalonians 5:16 Rejoice always;
17 pray without ceasing;
18 in everything give thanks: for this is God’s will in Christ Jesus toward you.
19 Quench not the Spirit;
20 despise not prophesyings;
21 but prove all things; hold fast what is good;
22 abstain from every form of evil.

Here are direct admonitions and exhortations to those saved and in the kingdom of God on how to stay saved.
Quench not the Spirit requires a "saint" to neglect their prayer life over time and to diminish in their fervour to serve Jesus as Lord.

Mat 25:8 And the foolish said to the wise, Give us of your oil; because our lamps are going out. [oil = Holy Spirit]
9 But the wise answered, saying, Peradventure there will not be enough for us and you: go rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went away to buy, the bridegroom came; and those ready went in with him to the marriage feast: and the door was shut.
11 And afterward come also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Amen I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know not the day nor the hour.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Hi all

This thread is an offshoot of the 'false teaching 'thread here False teaching, to discuss this specific topic.

2. Non OSAS belief - undermines cross

OSAS = Once saved always saved.

Many espouse we can lose our salvation. Whilst I agree it is important to daily examine ourselves and ensure we are saved, as many wicked believe they are saved. Paul's teaching is rife with such warnings. It is pure heresy to teach that someone God has grafted into His family and washed with the blood of Jesus, can be removed.

It is a belief contrived from much cherry picking and half truths. One that mocks Christianity and stumbles the weak.

Those that believe this, should lock themselves in a room in a cabin far far away from all society. As the Christian that actually works with the lost for God, can get corrupted by them and land up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity. We should pray daily, that just like the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, we die soon after conversion.

Absolute trash. God does not mistakes of grafting demons into heaven. This entire belief is debunked with Heb 13:5. ''Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you''.

Ermmm

Posted in love brother?

The only items in your post that seems to be right is, false teaching and cherry picking!

Cherry picking creates false teaching brother, ALL Scripture is God breathed.

John 15, as quoted previously, clearly explains, we are grafted in when born again from above, when we are in Christ we continue to be blessed, but if we do not abice then we will wither and be cut out.

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Love and Joy Perfected​

9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.
12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

In the above, 17 verses, which can never be called cherry picking, we have a very clear message from Jesus.

The parable gives us an incredibly clear and beautiful picture of the vine and how, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit is one, they already abide in each other. When a believer submits to Jesus, along with the other requirements we know about, we are born again from above; we abide in Jesus for Him to abide in us, not the other way round, when we abide in Jesus His spirit lives in us, the sap from the vine, the goodness of God. We are grafted in, not just to say we are saved, but as Jesus clearly states, we are to abide and obey, we are to follow Jesus' commandments.

v4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

But as our Lord himself says...

v 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

If any born again from above soul does not accept this message, the person is not accepting the Lord's Words, the person is not heeding the warnings, and if a person pushes their belief that does not agree with the Lord's words of encouragement and warning, the person will one day have to stand before Jesus and take the consequences, whether they are in the vine at that time or have been cut out of the vine.

I always believe that it is one thing to believe something incorrectly, it is another and much worse to try get others to believe what you believe, especially when we have a message and picture like this from the Lord himself.

We must never discard one scripture message over another, ALL scripture is God breathed, if two items seem to conflict it is us that has not got the message, we need to pray the spirit will reveal the Truth meant because they are both there for a reason. To end on a musical note, Let the reason be love.

v5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

I share this in love brother

Brother Paul

 

[KingJ]

@Brother-Paul , @B-A-C , @Waggles

Dear brothers, I have no doubt you all mean well.

I feel this thread is going nowhere. You clearly have some scriptures to support your view. As do I. I will be responding to your latest round as soon as possible.

Can I ask, please, let's also have a logical discussion.

Can any of you try explain how the following is not depicting God as a wicked fool.

1. Those that believe this, should lock themselves in a room in a cabin far far away from all society. As the Christian that actually works with the lost for God, can get corrupted by them and land up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity. We should pray daily, that just like the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, we die soon after conversion.

2. A non-OSAS belief is the very definition of a perversion of justice.
- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.
- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

3. Consider a marriage. Both make vows from depths of intent to never leave nor forsake each other until death do they part. In year 41 the husband commits adultery. 40 years of faithfulness and love. He will surely repent to his wife. She will weigh the depth of his repentance against his inner commitment from his marriage vows and 40 years of faithfulness. The chances of her trusting his repentance and forgiving him, welcoming him back with open arms is 9.9/10.

Then consider someone who made no marriage vows. No 40 years of faithfulness. Relationship of 4 years, in fornication, no ring, no vows. He then is unfaithful. What has the poor lady in his life got to measure his love against or basis to trust his repentance?

 

[KingJ]

My point was that Abraham was actually very humble and only asked God to spare the few righteous that might be living there, yet courageous for questioning God's coming wrath that might not be so picky(the body is not who we are, our spirits are, and if some righteous die, they will be happy in paradise, but he wanted Lot and those he might have influenced to be more godly to have more time in this portion of life). He lived by faith, and was no vegan or tree hugger, he and his men fought like tigers against many more ppl, and killed many.

You are telling others that you know the mind of God enough that He will follow what you tell them He will do. Its a LOT different than the situation with Abraham. Mind you, I am not either, but you dont seem to have his humble nature, or the willingness to accept what God's wrath will entail.

You are missing the point. You are correct that Abraham was concerned for the righteous that would be slain. Abraham new that God does not make mistakes destroying the wicked. He needed to understand God's reasoning for destroying the righteous.

If you read Gen 18:25-33 you can see that Abraham is ''interrogating'' God's actions. ''Will you destroy Sodom if there are 45, 40, 30, 20, 10...righteous. That is five questions fired at God. God answered him all five times. Just think on that. God of the universe, five replies on His actions, to a mere little human.

 

[Brad Huber]

You are missing the point. You are correct that Abraham was concerned for the righteous that would be slain. Abraham new that God does not make mistakes destroying the wicked. He needed to understand God's reasoning for destroying the righteous.

If you read Gen 18:25-33 you can see that Abraham is ''interrogating'' God's actions. ''Will you destroy Sodom if there are 45, 40, 30, 20, 10...righteous. That is five questions fired at God. God answered him all five times. Just think on that. God of the universe, five replies on His actions, to a mere little human.

So you think that only the wicked die from natural disasters? Or that God does not control natural disasters that happen?

 

[KingJ]

So you think that only the wicked die from natural disasters? Or that God does not control natural disasters that happen?

??? I will wait for you to re-read the posts.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul , @B-A-C , @Waggles

Dear brothers, I have no doubt you all mean well.

I feel this thread is going nowhere. You clearly have some scriptures to support your view. As do I. I will be responding to your latest round as soon as possible.

Can I ask, please, let's also have a logical discussion.

Can any of you try explain how the following is not depicting God as a wicked fool.

1. Those that believe this, should lock themselves in a room in a cabin far far away from all society. As the Christian that actually works with the lost for God, can get corrupted by them and land up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity. We should pray daily, that just like the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, we die soon after conversion.

2. A non-OSAS belief is the very definition of a perversion of justice.
- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.
- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

3. Consider a marriage. Both make vows from depths of intent to never leave nor forsake each other until death do they part. In year 41 the husband commits adultery. 40 years of faithfulness and love. He will surely repent to his wife. She will weigh the depth of his repentance against his inner commitment from his marriage vows and 40 years of faithfulness. The chances of her trusting his repentance and forgiving him, welcoming him back with open arms is 9.9/10.

Then consider someone who made no marriage vows. No 40 years of faithfulness. Relationship of 4 years, in fornication, no ring, no vows. He then is unfaithful. What has the poor lady in his life got to measure his love against or basis to trust his repentance?

Can we please stick to scripture for this discussion.

Let us never forget, God's ways are not our ways. We have been given scripture to answer any questions we have and prepare us for heaven. Some scriptures are clear to understand, some can show what we may feel are conflicting, They cannot be conflicting, every word is God breathed and is given us for a reason. Hence we are told to search the scriptures, never to discard any.

In His love

Brother Paul

 

[Waggles]

Can I ask, please, let's also have a logical discussion.

You are attempting to justify the unscriptural doctrine of OSAS with worldly examples of human circumstances - BUT scripture denies your logic with
clear lucid admonitions that discipleship can be lost or forsaken by disciples themselves.

2Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and are worsted, their last are become worse
with them than the first.
2Pe 2:21 Better were it for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

 

[Waggles]

Luke 8:13 And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a season believe, and in the season of temptation fall away.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brethren
Those who decide to participate in this tread, please remember you are united in Christ Jesus, and no matter how frustrating another may be, don't make it personal!!!
Remember this subject has been debated for many a year and will not be resolved to everyone's satisfaction by your responses on this thread!
In other words, "Play Nice"!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[1Way2God]

Dear Brethren
Those who decide to participate in this tread, please remember you are united in Christ Jesus, and no matter how frustrating another may be, don't make it personal!!!
Remember this subject has been debated for many a year and will not be resolved to everyone's satisfaction by your responses on this thread!
In other words, "Play Nice"!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

I can resolve it for you to where no one can dispute it with me even if they will not accept it.
I can do it by the Spirit of Christ.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Dear Brethren
Those who decide to participate in this tread, please remember you are united in Christ Jesus, and no matter how frustrating another may be, don't make it personal!!!
Remember this subject has been debated for many a year and will not be resolved to everyone's satisfaction by your responses on this thread!
In other words, "Play Nice"!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Those who believe salvation can be lost probably have no faith in salvation in the first place. Carrying cross and follow Yeshua means a lifetime of struggle with sin, and in this process, we will be tempted, will have a season of doubt, and will fall away, but we also will listen to the Holy Spirit and come back. All those warnings about falling away are referring to the dire consequences that a Christian will suffer for their sins IN THIS MORTAL LIFE, but by no means will salvation be lost.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I can resolve it for you to where no one can dispute it with me even if they will not accept it.
I can do it by the Spirit of Christ.

Dear 1Way2God,
First are you a male or a female?
Knowing will allow me to change that part in your bio. This will also allow you access to the gender appropriate forum available.

Next, I love the confidence of your words, though it is not me that you must of the position you believe is true!
It will be most interesting to read, and I look forward to what you present for those on this thread's consideration.

God bless, and providing me your gender would be appreciated.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I normally do not insert myself into this back-and-forth discussion on OSOS. I'm rather an observer and try to maintain the peace since it has in the past gotten quite heated! My post that you responded to, is my pre-emptive strike in keeping the discussion amicable. \o/

 

[Christ4Ever]

Those who believe salvation can be lost probably have no faith in salvation in the first place. Carrying cross and follow Yeshua means a lifetime of struggle with sin, and in this process, we will be tempted, will have a season of doubt, and will fall away, but we also will listen to the Holy Spirit and come back. All those warnings about falling away are referring to the dire consequences that a Christian will suffer for their sins IN THIS MORTAL LIFE, but by no means will salvation be lost.

Dear Brother Jonathan,
You are responding to my post which was done as a Moderator, and not one who will be entering into the discussion, except maybe to keep our brethren from going into the realm of personal attacks.
So, as much as I appreciate what you are saying above, I won't be responding either pro or con to its contents.

God bless you brother.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
To God be the Glory!
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Waggles]

Those who believe salvation can be lost probably have no faith in salvation in the first place. Carrying cross and follow Yeshua means a lifetime of struggle with sin, and in this process, we will be tempted, will have a season of doubt, and will fall away, but we also will listen to the Holy Spirit and come back. All those warnings about falling away are referring to the dire consequences that a Christian will suffer for their sins IN THIS MORTAL LIFE, but by no means will salvation be lost.

And that, Jonathan, is opinion over scripture.
Of course those disciples who are saved and have publicly declared before others their faith and commitment to living the gospel who then fail to overcome the world and fail to endure,
no longer abide in Christ Jesus.
Such will still have the indwelling Holy Spirit but they have QUENCHED the Spirit and have allowed their lamps to run dry.
Go back over this thread and carefully read the many scriptures that have been posted to show that OSAS is false doctrine.
Read the scriptures and learn from them, for they are the truth of the matter.
Salvation in the true sense is not proven until that last day when the dead in Christ and those who are alive are transformed in the twinkling of an eye and shall rise up to be with the Bridegroom.
Then and only then has immortality be given to enter the eternities and to be forever with our God and Saviour.

Matthew 22:11 But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding-garment:
12 and saith to him, Friend, how camest thou in hither having no wedding-garment? And HE was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the ministers, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.
14 For many are called, but few chosen.

 

[Waggles]

Exodus 32:33 But the LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.

Rev 3:4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; because they are worthy.
3:5 Who overcomes shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

blot: Logically, a name cannot be blotted out of the book of life unless it has been written in the book of life.
The book of life is not merely the book of the living, but the book of the redeemed. God has kept such a book from the beginning, witness the expression "my book" (Exodus 32:33),
a book therefore not to be identified as the census list of the nation of Israel!
A person’s name is blotted out because of sin (Exodus 32:33), but here it is promised that those who are overcomers will not be blotted out of the book of life.
Rev 7:17; Rev 21:4 (wipe away) > Exodus 32:32-33, Deut 9:14; Deut 25:19; Deut 29:20, Nehemiah 13:14, > Psalm 69:28; Psalm 109:13, Acts 3:19, Romans 9:3, Colossians 2:14.
The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury by Jerome H. Smith © 2004

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

And that, Jonathan, is opinion over scripture.

No, that’s the experience of Peter and other disciples. That weighs more than any cherry picked verses you posted.

And btw, “sudden disappearance” rapture is a false doctrine, it saddens me that you and so many good Christians have fallen for that.

 

[KingJ]

You are attempting to justify the unscriptural doctrine of OSAS with worldly examples of human circumstances - BUT scripture denies your logic with
clear lucid admonitions that discipleship can be lost or forsaken by disciples themselves.

No I am not. I am trying to show you that your belief, according to me and I think every person on this planet who thinks about it, implies God is a wicked fool.

So, I am trying to 'get out of you' how you do not arrive at the same conclusion with your belief. What am I missing?

I have created this thread on cherry picking How to know when you are cherry picking scripture, if what you teach misrepresents how God is defined in scripture, you do need to re-visit your belief or explain to all where they are missing something.

Please stop dodging this. You have been given scripture supporting OSAS and I have explained your first batch of scripture you use to support non-OSAS.

 

[KingJ]

Can we please stick to scripture for this discussion.

Let us never forget, God's ways are not our ways. We have been given scripture to answer any questions we have and prepare us for heaven. Some scriptures are clear to understand, some can show what we may feel are conflicting, They cannot be conflicting, every word is God breathed and is given us for a reason. Hence we are told to search the scriptures, never to discard any.

In His love

Brother Paul

We are both quoting scripture. I am convinced you are cherry picking. I have already explained the context and debunked many scriptures that appear to be non-OSAS.

I have not seen any here try debunk scripture I have quoted, 1 Cor 5 for example (see post 5) or convince me that with their belief God is still good.

A Christian has ''one'' job. Properly represent God to the lost 2 Cor 5:20. We fail at that one job if we cherry pick scripture that paints God as a wicked fool. Please try understand that.

It is very easy to get lost in scripture and think you are correct. The acid test is to re-visit scriptures that speak to who God is as explained here How to know when you are cherry picking scripture.

As such, I feel it is necessary for you to explain to me how God remains ''righteous in all His ways, light with no darkness'', if He is a wicked fool who would send Christian A in my examples to eternal hell.

Please don't dodge this as Waggles is. BAC took a stab at it, but has not replied to my correction of his example of 'winning a game in the last innings' - see post 10.

I am expecting more from you three . I have respect for all of you. You are all wise Christians.

 

[Dave M]

So, I am trying to 'get out of you' how you do not arrive at the same conclusion with your belief. What am I missing?

IMO you are blinded by something, and that is what you are missing, you think God thinks as we do, and think God reasons as you do.

this topic has been debated by the smartest scholars on the planet, yet they can not agree. I can give scripture supporting either case. Seems to me that mature Christians state their case and respect the views of others without name calling such as false teachers etc....

I tell you one thing if one is willfully sinning he will never see scripture straight.