Bill
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Could you show me the scripture that says that the soul was born and not created by God
Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross
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Bill
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Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, but your soul comes from God
KingJ
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Bill, we were created humans, male and female, humans. You don't need to believe in evolution lol. A human is a human. An angel is an angel. A dog is a dog. A Christian is a human that is adopted into God's family as a son and daughter. Reborn into His family.
Adopted into the family of God, a blood covenant with Him, thanks to the cross.
Rom 8:14-17 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
Eph 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
The purpose of mankind was for mankind to be sons and daughters in His house. This is why Jesus and the cross was planned before the foundations of the world Eph 1:4.
Bill
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No such thing as predestination. You have a choice. You choose to love your neighbor as yourself or you do not.
Just like there is no such thing as luck. What is luck? Is it something greater than God? Obviously not!!!
Your soul is created by God, where your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. And it (the Temple of the Holy Spirit) was made from dust and will return to dust. But the soul ( the image of God) what you really are, is created to be eternal.
KingJ
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I type all that and you cherry pick a word ''predistination''.
The context of predistination is that we (all of humankind) were planned to be in Christ. As scripture says He wills that all be saved - 1 Tim 2:4. But we know that not all are saved, it is the 'whomsoever'' that repents.
''predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself'
That, your body goes to dust, body is a temple or ''soul'' is eternal..... is 100% irrelevant to the topic.
You are dodging!
Bill
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And what exactly am I dodging, I'm trying to teach you the fundamentals of Christianity and you're not listening to it. And if you don't understand the fundamentals how are you going to understand that the one saved always saved is a bunch of hooey.
If you cannot follow or understand the fundamentals, basically Christianity 101. Then how in the world are you supposed to understand anything that's deeper.
If you're building your faith on sand, you can't build a building on top of it. And that's what you're doing trying to build your faith on top of sand
If I can interject a thought. It's only God who knows who will accept His offer of salvation. That's because of His omniscience... the only people who are the Temple of the Holy Spirit are those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior
And the term "rapture" is not used in the Bible never the less, John Darby came across those passage
And chose to expound upon them.
And the term "rapture" is not used in the Bible never the less, John Darby came across those passage
And chose to expound upon them.
Bill
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Those who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior are the ones that are born again. The Temple of the holy spirit is the body that you inhabit.. that thing that is the flush and blood is the Temple of the Holy Spirit however your soul is not made of flesh and blood it is made of spirit mind and heart.
Bill
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Those who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior are the ones that are born again. The Temple of the holy spirit is the body that you inhabit.. that thing that is the flush and blood is the Temple of the Holy Spirit however your soul is not made of flesh and blood it is made of spirit mind and heart.
Bill
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Those who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior are the ones that are born again. The Temple of the holy spirit is the body that you inhabit.. that thing that is the flush and blood is the Temple of the Holy Spirit however your soul is not made of flesh and blood it is made of spirit mind and heart.
Bill
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Those who accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior are the ones that are born again. The Temple of the holy spirit is the body that you inhabit.. that thing that is the flesh and blood is the Temple of the Holy Spirit however your soul is not made of flesh and blood it is made of spirit mind and heart.
Bill
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You are absolutely correct about God and his omniscience.
KingJ
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Literally everything I type. You ignore 99% and jump on one word
.You ignored every scripture mentioning that we are adopted into Gods family and you want to teach me the fundamentals of Christianity?
Deeper? The bond between a child and a Father is deep. Being adopted into God's family is deep.
Sand lol. You are dodging scriptures. Building your faith on half truths. That is more akin to sand. I am not dodging any scripture!
Christianity 101 is that a creation called a human can be adopted into the family of God, a blood covenant created thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
It is most certainly not, ''children'' of God are kicked out and thrown into eternal torment if they fall into too much sin. That paints God as some foolish being who has no concept of the bond of family.
No creation is family of God, unless God adopts them. Only the blood sacrifice of Jesus made adoption possible. Judas, lived, before the cross.... 1 + 1 = 2.
Bill
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I am well aware of what it means to adopt, as my wife and I have adopted five children as we can't have children of Our Own. But I can't stop my child from sinning even though I brought him up the right way taking him to church teaching him about God teaching him to pray it still didn't stop him from getting involved with other kids as teenagers and stealing a car and seeing prison time for it now that he's in his 20s he still working on getting out of it but it's still not clearing his head either. I can talk to him till I'm blue in the face but anger is what usually responds to it all I can really tell him is that I love him. But if he chooses to take the path that he's on he'll probably end up going to jail again. The same thing is true with Christians. God allows us a free will he's not stopping you from sinning you are the one that's stopping you from sinning. It is your choice your choice to either follow the lord or listen to the tempting of the devil.Literally everything I type. You ignore 99% and jump on one word
You ignored every scripture mentioning that we are adopted into Gods family and you want to teach me the fundamentals of Christianity?
Deeper? The bond between a child and a Father is deep. Being adopted into God's family is deep.
Sand lol. You are dodging scriptures. Building your faith on half truths. That is more akin to sand. I am not dodging any scripture!
Christianity 101 is that a creation called a human can be adopted into the family of God, a blood covenant created thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
It is most certainly not, ''children'' of God are kicked out and thrown into eternal torment if they fall into too much sin. That paints God as some foolish being who has no concept of the bond of family.
No creation is family of God, unless God adopts them. Only the blood sacrifice of Jesus made adoption possible. Judas, lived, before the cross.... 1 + 1 = 2.
To sit there and say that everything is predestined or to say that everything is once saved always saved that is retarded thinking. Because that is teaching people that it's okay to sin.
Why would Paul make a statement like this Galatians 6:7 through 10 don't delude yourself into thinking God can be cheated or a man sews there he reaps if he sews in a field of self-indulgence he will get a harvest of corruption out of it if he says in a field of the spirit he will get from it Harvest of eternal life we must never get tired of doing good because if we don't give up the struggle we shall get our Harvest at the proper time. While we have the chance, we must do good to all and especially to our brothers in the faith..
Paul is talking about the brothers and sisters in the faith if one of you misbehaves he says.
The question is if it's once saved always saved, why bother why take the time to instruct others when they are doing wrong because they are already saved in that thinking that your preaching.
Also in Galatians 5:13 through 15 Paul States my brothers, you were called as you know to Liberty, but be careful or this Liberty will provide an opening for self-indulgence. Serve one another rather, in works of Love since the whole of the law is summarized in a single command, love your neighbor as yourself. If you go on snapping at each other and tearing each other to pieces you had better watch or you will destroy the whole community. Paul goes on and says let me put it like this, if you are Guided by the spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence, since self-indulgence is the opposite of the spirit. The spirit is totally against such a thing, and it is precisely because the two are so opposite that you do not always carry out your good intentions. If you are led by the spirit, no law can touch you. One self-indulgence is at work the results are obvious, fornication, gross and decency, and sexual irresponsibility, adultery and sorcery, feuds and wrangling, jealousy, bad temper and quarrels disagreements factions Envy drunkenness orgies and similar things I warn you now as I warned you before those who behave like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Now I want to point out that Paul is talking to the brothers and sisters of the Faith with this conversation. And he is flatly warning them about self-indulgence and falling away from God. And the result of that.
I don't usually get into a bunch of argument using scripture but your argument is forcing the issue a little bit. I can go on for a long time though and quote a lot of scripture that backs this up
KingJ
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Wow, that's a lot of children Bill
.Nobody stops sinning. The angels that are in heaven sin. According to 1 Cor 6:3 we will judge them.
We will also continue to commit sins in heaven. Only God is perfectly good Mark 10:18.
Sorry to hear, that's terrible.
No, the same thing is not true with Christians.
If you created a baby with your wife, it will be your child, because they have your blood. Your adopted children are yours because you adopted strangers babies as your own. You are their guardian for the rest of their lives.
With God things are different. He is able to make a baby as a creation that is neither adopted or born of His blood. Created by His words.
He writes all babies names in heaven because He is not a wicked fool that would send any to hell. All children (I believe up to 19 due to Num 32:11) will go to heaven. To be tested another day, which I believe is the millennium due to scripture like Rev 20:7. But adults, who choose to live in sin unrepentant (like Judas) do get their names removed. Blotted out. Think of Abrahams bosom in the OT. Sinner A goes to Hell, Sinner B goes to Abraham bosom. One sinner does not repent and the other sinner does repent. Those that repented did not get their names blotted out of the book of life.
A Christian, post the cross, is something completely different. PLEASE! read this thread What is a Christian and how do you become one?.
A Christian is on par with those in Abrahams bosom taken to heaven. A Christian ''HAS'' repented truthfully of all their sins Psalm 51:17. A Christian ''HAS'' passed God's test of the heart and mind Jer 17:9-12. A Christian ''CAN'' follow Matt 16:24.
Jesus is NOT a fool that comes into the heart of someone who does not make Him the master of their life Rev 20:3. IE God is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven. IE If OSAS were not true, then maybe the devil will go back to heaven one-day, because God can make mistakes with whom He takes in and kicks out. If OSAS were not true, then maybe in year 1 000 in heaven, you may be booted out and go to hell. If OSAS were not true then maybe you and I need to make sure we stop preaching to sinners that can tempt us into sin, in case we lose our salvation. Lets rather just attend church and warm seats.
The issue is that many ''think'' they are saved when they are not. Paul mentions ''brethren so called'' in 1 Cor 5. The issue is not that OSAS is not true. For this would imply God is a fool. Please try understand that. Just think on this, don't just be defensive and argumentative. Chew on what I have type to you. I used to believe in non-OSAS just like you.
KingJ
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I don't believe in predestination as Calvinists would.
The context of us being predestined in Christ, is simply like saying Henry Ford predestined humans to drive automobiles.
God created humans in His image. A creation that could choose to hate or love what is evil. Those that hate, truly hate it, would repent and be after His heart. These He would wash clean and sanctify with the blood of Jesus 1 Thess 5:23. Adopt them and graft them into His family.
I never teach its ok to sin. We just need to acknowledge the fact that we all sin. The 'only' difference between one sinner and another is that one repents and the other does not.
Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
A Christian has sown and reaped what they have sown. A person who does not repent will also reap what they have sown.
Paul addressed all in attendance at a 'church' meeting as brothers and sisters. This does not equate to him believing all were saved. It was merely a respectful way to address all. There are a number of examples and passages in scripture that show he did not believe all were saved. I like referencing 1 Cor 5 as he does this with crystal clarity. In verse 1 we read that there is a 'brethren' who commits incest, referred to as ''brother so called'' in verse 11, whom Paul says we must not even eat with.
Paul urges us to judge ourselves as often as we can to ensure we are in the faith. To ensure Jesus is in us.
We can make the mistake of thinking we are saved when we are not. God, however, does not make this mistake. We are fools, He is not.
1 Cor 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Note the underlined in this passage. A Christian ''IS'' someone who is led by the spirit, well as much as is possible. You cannot be more spirit lead then to be a Christian. As explained here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.
Paul has many many scriptures talking about those who continue in sin, not being in heaven. He says this in 1 Cor 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!.
What you have to try understand is that nobody should in the slightest oppose self examination. We can all think we are saved but not be saved.
It should be impossible for a Christian to commit a mortal sin or continue in a venial sin unrepentant. If this sounds silly to you, you need to meditate on this fact. I will give you some examples:
1. Lets say you and I were in the army. An enemy shoots a bullet at you, I see you are not looking and jump in front of you, taking the bullet for you. Or 2. let's say I am the enemy. I see you are out of bullets. I aim my gun at your head and do not pull the trigger. Or 3. Lets say we are both in the desert far from a town and only have one cup of water. I give you the last cup of water, you drink it all not knowing its the last. I die and you live to tell your kids.
In every instance here the person who lays their life down, should be welcome in your house forever. Now what should also go without saying is the fact that this person, who was able to show so much love for you that they lay their life down, should surely never be able to ..... commit a mortal sin against you! Like murdering you. Or, continue in venial sin unrepentant. Like constantly back biting.
The bond God has wants with us is in NOT 86.7 years of sinless perfection with only 4 years of sin. He wants a depth of intent on par with martyrdom!!!!! Our bond with God is that He has laid His life down for us. This is how our bond works for all eternity. There is no faking Christianity with God!
I will never approve of a non-OSAS message being taught. I have given my reasons for this. It reminds me of those who teach of a torturous eternal hell. Some, are so indoctrinated that they can't take a step back and just consider how badly they are incriminating God.
A Christian has one job 2 Cor 5:20. Let's not fail at our one job.
KingJ
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1. How do you interpret 1 Cor 5:11, where Paul calls brethren in attendance that commit mortal sins ''brethren so called''.
2. Do you believe a Christian sins?
3. Do you believe God will remove us from heaven at any point?
4. Do you believe God made a mistake by 'permanently' removing the devil from heaven?
5. Do you believe that someone who laid their life down for you is capable of committing a mortal sin against you?
6. Do you believe that is fair for God to send a Christian who serves Him for 99 years and then sins terrible in the 100th, to eternal hell over someone who never sins 'terribly' but rather just sits in church and never serves?
7. Do you believe the criminal next to Jesus that only repented of his sins and never served God, is in heaven?
If any anti-OSAS believer took these questions seriously, they would convert from their belief. The problem is, you all just cherry pick scriptures and for some reason do not care about what terrible picture you paint of God to the fellow brethren. Yes, an anti-OSAS belief does more damage to the saved then the unsaved. You force a Christian into a mindset of a works based salvation. Absolutely not ok.
Bill
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Does not matter what i believe, all that matters is what is in the Word of God.
You said it yourself, Paul states a number of times , people who are saved can still fall.
Now if you feel your interpretation of scripture is better than Paul's writing, then i will have to place you in the False Prophet status.
Does KingJ now = False Prophet? That is up to you
