it wasn't me who declared her self above the bible.
Once saved can we lose our salvation??
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it wasn't me who declared her self above the bible.
DutchChristian
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OSAS is a lie, Once saved you CAN lose your salvation!
DutchChristian
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You are welcome,
- Matt: 6:15
- Matt: 19:21-35
- Matt: 10:22-32
- Luke 12:41-46
- 1 Cor. 15:1-2
- Colossians 1:22-23
- Hebrews 3:6, 14
- Rev. 2:10, 25-26, 3:1-5
- 2 Peter 2:20-22
Amongst others.
hmm why do you think Rev. 2:10 would be requirement for salvation? seems harsh someone would have to endure prison and only if so be saved. failure to endure captivity would make God punish him with hell?
is that what you believe?
ive read all the verses you posted but i want to start talking about just this one first.
Peace Seeker
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Hi, DutchChristian. I don't see how any of these verses show that a Christian can lose his salvation, and I will tell you why. Please tell me in your own words why you think they do.
Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Can a born-again Christian, who : has the Holy Spirit in him and who has been sealed unto salvation by Him - Ephesians 1:13-14, and who is a new creation (Gal 2:20), with the mind of Christ (Corinthians 2:16), and who walks by the Spirit and not the flesh (etc.!), somehow have a fleshy attitude of unforgiveness? The mind of Christ : Christ is all about forgiveness, so if someone isn't able to forgive it is because he doesn't have the mind of Christ. So is it your belief that such a born-again person can break free from and undo the power of God's salvation and decide to no longer forgive people? He's a Christian but doesn't want to forgive people? That's like saying he's a swimmer but he doesn't want to get in the water!
So I think he is unforgiving because he wasn't born-again and not much more than one of the people who sowed his seed in rocky soil, or whose seed fell among thorns. (Matt 13:18-22)
Matt 19:21-35 is about those who will not get into the kingdom of heaven, not those who have the kingdom and then lose it. The rich man in this example doesn't take up his cross and follow the Lord, loving material things of the world more than the spiritual. So this passage is just describing those who follow the Lord and those who don't. The ones who don't aren't His, the ones who do are, for the sheep know Him and He knows them, etc.
Matt: 10:22-32
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another.
This is about persecution and tribulation and enduring to the end. My guess as to the reason why you included this scripture is to try show that we are responsible for our salvation, in that you think it us that has the power (and responsibility) to endure, while I think God gives His people the power to endure because they are saved. If I have to endure then why does God seal me with His Holy Spirit as a down-payment on my inheritance to come? If I have to endure then God needs my help to affect His salvation for me, which to me is preposterous. I endure because of Him, not me.
Luke 12:41-46
41 Then Peter said to Him, “Lord, do You speak this parable only to us, or to all people?” 42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Look at the context in the previous verses, actually in the whole chapter and the late verses in chapter 11. Jesus is talking about the Pharisees, hypocritical belief, rich fools whose hearts treasure wealth instead of God, etc. And regarding the servant in verse 45, let us not assume that just because the word "servant" is used, it automatically means one who is a servant of God. Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus were called His servants, and there are good and evil servants in the bible, both being God's servants for His own purposes. Jesus answered the question in verse 41 with a, "who do you think I am talking about?" kind of response. 3 John 1:11 says that, "He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God". So the servant who does evil is not of God, therefore the good servants that are of God will be the faithful and wise ones that will not be appointed a portion with the unbelievers.
1 Cor. 15:1-2
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
Once again context is important. In verses 3-4 Paul is preaching some of the core tenets of the faith - that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose on the third day. Later on, verses 12-14 give the context about verses 1 & 2, wherein the Apostle Paul is warning about unsaved religious people in the church that were denying the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Liberal "Christians" in liberal churches that deny the core teachings of the bible (the atonement, resurrection, etc.) are not true believers, are unsaved and are the ones that Paul is addressing when he says, "unless you believed in vain". So this verse is not about Christians in danger of losing their salvation but about professed “Christians” who in reality deny the faith and are believing in another gospel. Many will say, "Lord, Lord".
Colossians 1:22-23
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
The word, "if", in verse 23 is used no differently than if I said to my wife, "if you love me you will be faithful to me". I wouldn't be denying or questioning her love for me, I would be affirming the fact that because she is faithful to me she loves me, and vice versa. The above verse is used the same way, with Paul saying because you are born of God you will continue steadfast in the faith and will be presented blameless, etc. Look at verse 21, where Paul is telling us that we have been reconclied, it is a done deal. So we who are reconclied to God are His children and we will continue in the faith grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which we have heard.
Same thing about the word, "if" in Hebrews 3: 6, 14.
What does Revelation 3 actually say? The one who overcomes will not have his name blotted out of the book of life.
Who are those that overcome...? The New Testament tells us plain those that believe and receive Jesus Christ as their
Savior.
Revelation 2:10
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
How does Revelation 2:10 refer to salvation? The crown is about rewards, not salvation. The crown refers to the rewards that are given to those who love God and trust Jesus Christ, as per James 1:12, which states that those who LOVE Christ receive the crown of life :
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
The Greek word for crown - stephanos - according to Thayer, has the meaning "metaphorically the eternal blessedness which will be given as a prize to the genuine servants of God and Christ: the crown (wreath) which is the reward of the righteousness." Therefore, the crown does not refer to salvation but rewards, and is the victor's crown for overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.
1 John 5:13 :
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life".
Do you know you have eternal life, or is that always dependent upon you, instead of upon the finished work of Christ and His free gift of salvation? Do we need to go through daily numerous mental checklists to assure ourselves that we are saved, or is Christ's assurance enough for us? Can something be eternal but only temporary? If you were given a free 30 year mortgage on your house that was later rescinded and changed to only 10 years, you wouldn't say you still have a 30 year free mortgage. You would say you never had a free mortgage, that ithe offer was either a scam, or something subject to hidden provisions and hidden clauses. Is this what God is like? When has God EVER broken a promise?? Does He say, "I give them eternal life", but not really??? Is it "His good pleasure to give us the kingdom", but not really?
Ah, but you will say that I can give the gift (of the free mortgage - or salvation) back and hence lose the gift. That then would mean that the infinite and infinitely powerful God gives us an infinite and powerful gift (that no one else can give), to be entrusted to the hands of finite man, whom can easily and simply undo the gift? No other religion gives us the free gift of eternal life, they are all based upon earning salvation, doing good works, following a list of rules, etc. In a nutshell they leave the responsibility to man to make sure he saves himself. Whereas the God of the bible gives us eternal life, free salvation for the taking, by our faith and trust in His ability to save us and keep His promises. Either God gave us that gift because He wants us to have it and has made sure that we will attain it (because He knows in our state of being we are unable to), or He gave it to us to see what we would do with it, merely hoping we can keep it by our own efforts. So we either know we have salvation, or we hope we will do what we think we need to do in order to have and keep it. I go with the first.
And who are those that overcome? Revelation 21:11 states that we overcome by the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 2:25-26 is about that same victor's crown I previously discussed. In this case God promises to give us power over the nations, hence this is a material reward, not a salvation-related thing.
Romans 10:3-4 warns us about trying to establish our own righteousness, which I believe is what is happening in those that think their salvation is their responsibility....
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
2 Peter 2:20-21 says, "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning."
So, in order to understand this passage we need to know who the "they" is referring to. 2 Peter 2 is a chapter about evildoers, who attempt to lead others into their own lifestyle. Beginning with verse 18, the text is clear that the "they" are those who listen to the evildoers.
"For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error". (2 Peter 2:18)
"They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him". (2 Peter 2:19)
Verse 18 says "they" are "people who are just escaping from those who live in error." So, these people are associated with Christians that have begun to understand the way of righteousness, but they are not yet believers. Verse 21 says, "It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to
have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command..."So, the passage is clear that these people are not backsliding Christians, but those who have heard the word and then rejected it to follow after evildoers. I believe the context is clearly speaking about a person who has heard the Gospel, attended a church, played the religious game for awhile; but then went back into the sinful world.
If 2nd Peter 2:20-22 are speaking about believers, then it wouldn't make any sense, because it requires that a born-again believer go through the process of being "UNBORN." How can one be born anew and then "un-born", any more than he can be born and go back into his mother's womb? (John 3:3) That is impossible. The spiritual birth occurs once, just as the physical birth occurs only once, and neither one is subject to our efforts.
It is interesting how Jesus used the metaphors of vines, watering, washing with water, etc. when referring to us and our relationship to Him. Just as a plant in my garden will grow in response to my watering it, so too will we grow when Jesus, the Gardener, waters us. We don't cause ourselves to grow, He does, in response to our child-like faith and trust in Him; just as a plant doesn't cause itself to grow, it grows because of the water, sunlight, etc. that it receives. The plant doesn't need to do anything but receive, so too with us - receive and trust God to keep His promises. God bless!
DutchChristian
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Hi Jari,
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
DutchChristian
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Hi Peace seeker,
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10
i do not follow your interpretation and explanation.
Be wise and reject OSAS which basically ends up to a license for immorality.
DutchChristian
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Like it says in the Word of God.
Scripture is not of any private interpretation. The Word of God Speaks Himself here the words say what they say.
can you explain it to me then? because i cant see words "loose salvation" in the text.
it must be on very small print
DutchChristian
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Jari,
What is the second death?
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
counting from 1 to 2 it would be the death number two.
DutchChristian
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Yes and what happens can be found in Revelation 20:14.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Now back to:
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Now what about those that do not overcome?
i wonder who those are
SpiritLedEd
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As minorities, the first century churches were under persecution the intensity of which I cannot imagine and neither can most of the people involved with these posts. Plus, they were brand new believers and as such, their faith was very shaky; the kind of people Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 3:1 - "mere infants in Christ" - very vulnerable to being lured back into the pagan beliefs they had recently left. When we discuss OSAS, we must take into account Paul's instructions in Php 2:12-13 to "...work out your salvation in fear and trembling for it is God who works in you to will and to do according to His good purpose." There are also many believers in today's church whose faith is shaky.
SLE
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B-A-C
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Once saved - always saved. This is perhaps one of the greatest dividing factors in the Church today.
There are Churches such as the Unitarians that believe everyone is saved no matter what. You don’t have to believe in God or Jesus or anything. Jesus died for everyone, so everyone is saved no matter what. (Unity Church)
Heb 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
Yes God will never leave us. But can we leave him? There’s an old saying that says “If you feel far from God, guess who moved!” Keep in mind, many divorces are also one sided, both the husband and the wife do not want it, but it only takes one of them to make the divorce happen.
Can we backslide?
The word “backsliding” appears in the King James 12 times, and only in the Old Testament, not at all in the New Testament.
Jer. 3:6, 8, 11, 12, 14, 22
Jer 8:5
Jer 31:22
Jer 49:4
Hos 4:16
Hos 11:7
Hos 14:4
Most believe that the tale of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) is a tale of backsliding because the son was not coming home for the first time: He was coming back home after leaving. To paraphrase, the son was with the father, left the father, and then came back to the father.
Luk 15:11 And He said, "A man had two sons.
Luk 15:12 "The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them.
Luk 15:13 "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
Luk 15:14 "Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.
Luk 15:15 "So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 "And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.
Luk 15:17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
Luk 15:18 'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
Luk 15:19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
Luk 15:20 "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
Luk 15:22 "But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
Luk 15:23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
Luk 15:24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Luk 15:25 "Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.
Luk 15:26 "And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.
Luk 15:27 "And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'
Luk 15:28 "But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.
Luk 15:29 "But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;
Luk 15:30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'
Luk 15:31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.
Luk 15:32 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"
Jesus taught a lot in parables (stories). The only place that he actually explained what the parable meant was the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:3-8 is the parable itself. It is also found in Mark 4:3-8 and in Luke 8:5-8.
Mat 13:3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;
Mat 13:4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
Mat 13:5 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
Mat 13:6 "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
Mat 13:8 "And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
Mat 13:9 "He who has ears, let him hear."
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
The explanation
Mat 13:18 "Hear then the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
Mat 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Mat 13:22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
Verse 19 is about the people who never believed in the first place because they did not understand.
Verses 20 and 21 are about people who believed for a little while and then quit believing.
Verse 22 is also about people who believed and then for various reasons quit believing.
Verse 23 is about people who never did backslide (not everyone backslides!) and who continue to believe.
In Romans 11, verse 20 we see that people can be “broken off” because of unbelief.
In verse 23 even though they were broken off, they believed again, thus God was able to “graft them in again.”
Rom 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
A person cannot be something “again” for the first time. They would have had to be that something once already in order to be it “again.”
Here the Bible says that someone can quit being what they were. In other words you can be a Christian (“salt”) and you can quit being a Christian (losing your “saltiness”)
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
1Tim 1:19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
1Ti 5:15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
In the verses below, how would they know it’s a “different” gospel unless they had already heard the gospel in the first place?
Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Apparently just because your name was written in the book of life, it doesn’t mean it will always stay there forever, it can be removed.
Psal 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Could it be, there really is such a thing as going too far? Even for those who have already been used by God and have accomplished some of his work? A common argument is “well they were never saved in the first place”.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
2Jo 1:11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
Yes there is grace. Thank God for that.
Mat 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22 Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
490 times is alot. But what if he sins against you 491 or 492 times?
Phi 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Having said all of this, do I think it happens often? No. I think it is VERY difficult for this to happen, but I do think it is possible.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
As I said at the beginning, he will never leave or forsake us, but can we leave and forsake him?
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Can we “fall way” from something we never had in the first place?
Luk 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Notice all 5 of the verses above say we are saved by what we believe in, or have faith in. Not by what we do. So how then, is it possible to get "unsaved" by what we do? We can't. We can't sin so much that we lose our salvation. (After all we weren't saved by works in the first place)
However we can sin so much that we lose our faith. (1Tim 4:11 and the parable of the sower) and once we lose our faith.. well... read those 5 verses again.
Look at Peter, he denied Christ 3 times in 1 day (after he was a believer) David committed an affair and had the womans' husband killed, Paul said he does the things he shouldn't do and doesn't do the things he know's he should do. (Romans 7)
So this woman goes back to prostitution, does she lose her salvation? Did Rahab the Harlot lose hers? How about Hosea's wife Gomer (the whole story is an allegory of Hosea as God and Gomer as Israel and how they were unfaithful to their husbands). I think the grace of God allows for mistakes after we become Christians (or believers). But you can sin so much that your faith starts to slip..
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The word "exchanged" is key here. If you go to a store, and almost buy some pants, and never purchase them and never take them home,
well they were never yours, so you can't exchange them. However if you buy them, and leave the store with them, now you OWN them.
You can take them back later and exchange them. So this verse doesn't mean that they never accepted it, it means they accepted it as truth, even if it was for a very short while, and then "exchanged" it for something else.
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
No.. no one is more powerful than God, not even Satan himself can snatch someone out of Jesus's hand.
But could it be, that we are free leave on our own accord? God's Word says we are free indeed. Free from sin, but free to turn back to it also if we choose that way of life.
Why are Christians tempted, tried and tested? I don't believe it's to test our obedience, it's to test faith. If faith doesn't matter then why will some go to hell?
Many quote from Romans here...
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God love us yes, he loves us all. But not everyone will be saved and the love of God is not the salvation of God.
The Bible says faith without works is dead, no we aren't saved by works (I still believe its faith) but what if we have no evidence of salvation in our lives?
What if the salt loses it's saltiness?
What if our faith is shipwrecked?
What if we fall away from the faith?
What if we bear no fruit?
What if we don't love our neighbors (or enemies for that matter)?
Are we still saved?
Some will say well that person was never saved in the first place... if that's true, where do we draw the line on who is saved and who isn't?
How do any of us know for sure if we are saved? Maybe that isn't true, maybe there is grace for our mistakes, but we really should try to live differently.
To die to the old flesh. Maybe the Spirit of God really should be evident in our lives. If we are just living like we were living before we got saved, maybe we lost
something along the way.
Rev 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Maybe some who were saved once, lost their way?
Mat 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
Mat 7:17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
There are Churches such as the Unitarians that believe everyone is saved no matter what. You don’t have to believe in God or Jesus or anything. Jesus died for everyone, so everyone is saved no matter what. (Unity Church)
Heb 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
Yes God will never leave us. But can we leave him? There’s an old saying that says “If you feel far from God, guess who moved!” Keep in mind, many divorces are also one sided, both the husband and the wife do not want it, but it only takes one of them to make the divorce happen.
Can we backslide?
The word “backsliding” appears in the King James 12 times, and only in the Old Testament, not at all in the New Testament.
Jer. 3:6, 8, 11, 12, 14, 22
Jer 8:5
Jer 31:22
Jer 49:4
Hos 4:16
Hos 11:7
Hos 14:4
Most believe that the tale of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) is a tale of backsliding because the son was not coming home for the first time: He was coming back home after leaving. To paraphrase, the son was with the father, left the father, and then came back to the father.
Luk 15:11 And He said, "A man had two sons.
Luk 15:12 "The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them.
Luk 15:13 "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
Luk 15:14 "Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.
Luk 15:15 "So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 "And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.
Luk 15:17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
Luk 15:18 'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
Luk 15:19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
Luk 15:20 "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
Luk 15:22 "But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
Luk 15:23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
Luk 15:24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Luk 15:25 "Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.
Luk 15:26 "And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.
Luk 15:27 "And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'
Luk 15:28 "But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.
Luk 15:29 "But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;
Luk 15:30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'
Luk 15:31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.
Luk 15:32 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"
Jesus taught a lot in parables (stories). The only place that he actually explained what the parable meant was the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:3-8 is the parable itself. It is also found in Mark 4:3-8 and in Luke 8:5-8.
Mat 13:3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;
Mat 13:4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
Mat 13:5 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
Mat 13:6 "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
Mat 13:8 "And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
Mat 13:9 "He who has ears, let him hear."
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
The explanation
Mat 13:18 "Hear then the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
Mat 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Mat 13:22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
Verse 19 is about the people who never believed in the first place because they did not understand.
Verses 20 and 21 are about people who believed for a little while and then quit believing.
Verse 22 is also about people who believed and then for various reasons quit believing.
Verse 23 is about people who never did backslide (not everyone backslides!) and who continue to believe.
In Romans 11, verse 20 we see that people can be “broken off” because of unbelief.
In verse 23 even though they were broken off, they believed again, thus God was able to “graft them in again.”
Rom 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
A person cannot be something “again” for the first time. They would have had to be that something once already in order to be it “again.”
Here the Bible says that someone can quit being what they were. In other words you can be a Christian (“salt”) and you can quit being a Christian (losing your “saltiness”)
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
1Tim 1:19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
1Ti 5:15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
In the verses below, how would they know it’s a “different” gospel unless they had already heard the gospel in the first place?
Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
Apparently just because your name was written in the book of life, it doesn’t mean it will always stay there forever, it can be removed.
Psal 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Could it be, there really is such a thing as going too far? Even for those who have already been used by God and have accomplished some of his work? A common argument is “well they were never saved in the first place”.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
2Jo 1:11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
Yes there is grace. Thank God for that.
Mat 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22 Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
490 times is alot. But what if he sins against you 491 or 492 times?
Phi 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Having said all of this, do I think it happens often? No. I think it is VERY difficult for this to happen, but I do think it is possible.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
As I said at the beginning, he will never leave or forsake us, but can we leave and forsake him?
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Can we “fall way” from something we never had in the first place?
Luk 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Notice all 5 of the verses above say we are saved by what we believe in, or have faith in. Not by what we do. So how then, is it possible to get "unsaved" by what we do? We can't. We can't sin so much that we lose our salvation. (After all we weren't saved by works in the first place)
However we can sin so much that we lose our faith. (1Tim 4:11 and the parable of the sower) and once we lose our faith.. well... read those 5 verses again.
Look at Peter, he denied Christ 3 times in 1 day (after he was a believer) David committed an affair and had the womans' husband killed, Paul said he does the things he shouldn't do and doesn't do the things he know's he should do. (Romans 7)
So this woman goes back to prostitution, does she lose her salvation? Did Rahab the Harlot lose hers? How about Hosea's wife Gomer (the whole story is an allegory of Hosea as God and Gomer as Israel and how they were unfaithful to their husbands). I think the grace of God allows for mistakes after we become Christians (or believers). But you can sin so much that your faith starts to slip..
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The word "exchanged" is key here. If you go to a store, and almost buy some pants, and never purchase them and never take them home,
well they were never yours, so you can't exchange them. However if you buy them, and leave the store with them, now you OWN them.
You can take them back later and exchange them. So this verse doesn't mean that they never accepted it, it means they accepted it as truth, even if it was for a very short while, and then "exchanged" it for something else.
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
No.. no one is more powerful than God, not even Satan himself can snatch someone out of Jesus's hand.
But could it be, that we are free leave on our own accord? God's Word says we are free indeed. Free from sin, but free to turn back to it also if we choose that way of life.
Why are Christians tempted, tried and tested? I don't believe it's to test our obedience, it's to test faith. If faith doesn't matter then why will some go to hell?
Many quote from Romans here...
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God love us yes, he loves us all. But not everyone will be saved and the love of God is not the salvation of God.
The Bible says faith without works is dead, no we aren't saved by works (I still believe its faith) but what if we have no evidence of salvation in our lives?
What if the salt loses it's saltiness?
What if our faith is shipwrecked?
What if we fall away from the faith?
What if we bear no fruit?
What if we don't love our neighbors (or enemies for that matter)?
Are we still saved?
Some will say well that person was never saved in the first place... if that's true, where do we draw the line on who is saved and who isn't?
How do any of us know for sure if we are saved? Maybe that isn't true, maybe there is grace for our mistakes, but we really should try to live differently.
To die to the old flesh. Maybe the Spirit of God really should be evident in our lives. If we are just living like we were living before we got saved, maybe we lost
something along the way.
Rev 3:16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Maybe some who were saved once, lost their way?
Mat 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
Mat 7:17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
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so what is the point in christian loosing their faith or becoming spiritually dead? or lost sheep. does bible say this would be condition on loosing salvation? no it doesn't.
the miracle of being saved involves becoming God's child. if you would lose salvation this would mean undoing your child status and God would have to say he once knew you and not that he never knew you. it would mean also God taking away His holy spirit that he has given to us until to the day of redemption.
the salvation is what gives us the status change. it's also by grace we are saved. we don't do anything to earn this or any work to make it happen. since salvation is of grace what requirement can free gift have that it would be lost? none. it wouldnt be free anymore if it did.
you may not be good christian always but your status as God's child never changes.
and you become God's own. meaning God owns you.
then it wouldn't be a matter of question anymore can you loose your salvation because you belong to God now and He doesn't give you away.
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
it's like the scripture says God cannot deny Him self. but why? he could just deny us if we arent good christians. The thing however is that He would deny him self because we have become His children and given Holy spirit and He cannot thus deny us because we are part of Him and He would therefore deny Him self. He would deny Him self being in us if He did that.
the miracle of being saved involves becoming God's child. if you would lose salvation this would mean undoing your child status and God would have to say he once knew you and not that he never knew you. it would mean also God taking away His holy spirit that he has given to us until to the day of redemption.
the salvation is what gives us the status change. it's also by grace we are saved. we don't do anything to earn this or any work to make it happen. since salvation is of grace what requirement can free gift have that it would be lost? none. it wouldnt be free anymore if it did.
you may not be good christian always but your status as God's child never changes.
and you become God's own. meaning God owns you.
then it wouldn't be a matter of question anymore can you loose your salvation because you belong to God now and He doesn't give you away.
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
it's like the scripture says God cannot deny Him self. but why? he could just deny us if we arent good christians. The thing however is that He would deny him self because we have become His children and given Holy spirit and He cannot thus deny us because we are part of Him and He would therefore deny Him self. He would deny Him self being in us if He did that.
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B-A-C
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Lets put that verse in context here, shall we.
2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
2Ti 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
Being faithful to someone isn't the same as having faith in someone.
A woman or husband can be faithful to their spouse (that means they don't cheat on them) and yet at the same time not have trust in them.
As stated earlier. Jesus remains faithful to us when we fail. He won't turn his back on us. But notice in verse 12 what happens if we turn our back on him.
Also, it's not a good idea to build an entire theology on one verse, especially when the other side of the debate has given dozens of verses.
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