Once saved can we lose our salvation??

[DutchChristian]

2Ti 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

But notice in verse 12 what happens if we turn our back on him.

That's right.

You know:

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10:31

OSAS believers better start reading from verse 26 onwards till verse 31 from Hebrews 10.

God does not play around! NO license for sin is EVER given by God. But OSAS is that hidden license for sin given by the devil just like he said earlier in the garden: 'Ye shall not surely die.' that wicked old serpent...

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 6:7-8

 

[jari]

Lets put that verse in context here, shall we.

2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
2Ti 2:11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
2Ti 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
2Ti 2:14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
2Ti 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

Being faithful to someone isn't the same as having faith in someone.
A woman or husband can be faithful to their spouse (that means they don't cheat on them) and yet at the same time not have trust in them.
As stated earlier. Jesus remains faithful to us when we fail. He won't turn his back on us. But notice in verse 12 what happens if we turn our back on him.

it's highly matter of interpreation on what paul is saying here.

"2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: "

can be taken as we must not deny our faith in Jesus or as we must not deny Jesus altogether (as savior).

the word Deny is greek word: arneomai which means:

Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the middle of G4483; to contradict, that is, disavow, reject, abnegate: - deny, refuse.

from these options the translators choose english word Deny. but this alone may give wrong idea from the original text. it could read "if we refuse Him".

not refusing Jesus as savior leads to suffering because you believe. the verse isnt talking about keeping the faith in my opinion, but accepting Jesus at first place or denying Him.

Being faithful to someone isn't the same as having faith in someone.

the word faithful is picked by translators from greek word pistos
which means:
From G3982; objectively trustworthy; subjectively trustful: - believe (-ing, -r), faithful (-ly), sure, true.

i agree there would be different word for believing in someone (that would be pisteuō (john 3:16)), than for faithful, like in this verse. But the point is that faithfulness , trusting God and generally believing seems to be covered by this word and lacking those attributes would therefore not be reason for God to deny you, according the verse. the point also remains that God cannot deny him self.
and our lacking in faith doesnt give Him opportunity to deny us without denying Him self, because we never denied Him but believe in Him and have been born again into God's family.

issue is not do we believe God exists but that we have been saved by faith in Jesus.
and we are now His own. and our faithfulnes and trust toward savior from this point on isnt the issue, because of adoption that happened by realization of Jesus existence as our savior and accepting Him.

Also, it's not a good idea to build an entire theology on one verse, especially when the other side of the debate has given dozens of verses.

there are also dozen verses that support OSAS but are ignored. take john 3:16 for example. it says who believes will not perish but have everlasting life. Most people who say you can loose salvation seem to directly either lie against this or not remember the verse. because God's promise was who believes will be saved. so believing was only condition.
and most arguments always state you must do something else that just believe.

 

[B-A-C]

there are also dozen verses that support OSAS but are ignored. take john 3:16 for example. it says who believes will not perish but have everlasting life. Most people who say you can loose salvation seem to directly either lie against this or not remember the verse. because God's promise was who believes will be saved. so believing was only condition.
and most arguments always state you must do something else that just believe.

Virtually all of them have a condition. The condition of faith, as in John 3:16 (whosoever believeth).
But what about those who don't believe or stop believing. According to John 3:16, they aren't covered.

 

[Isaac001]

I would like to make a clear distinction, the scripture is clear that there is nothing external that can separate us from God, What I am arguing is that although we cannot be pulled from God, we can freely choose to depart from the saving faith of Christ. As you will notice, I have selected the passages which clearly demonstrate that the inspired writers were referring to Christians (children of God). This destroys the very convenient dodge: "If they are lost, they weren't saved to begin with" and/or "If one is a child of God, he could never cease to become a child of God. Please carefully examine all the passages given. Please keep in mind that these 9 verses do not even scratch the surface.

1. Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13
2. Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17
3. Error from the truth - James 5:19-20
4. Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11
5. Fall into condemnation - James 5:12
6. Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23
7. Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1
8. Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12
9. Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27

Grace and Peace

 

[jari]

Virtually all of them have a condition. The condition of faith, as in John 3:16 (whosoever believeth).
But what about those who don't believe or stop believing. According to John 3:16, they aren't covered.

yes like i said faith would be only conditition.

but faith in what exactly? believing what? That God exists? that Jesus is only way?

before you accept Jesus as savior you may not believe in God. But once you do you cannot deny existence of God anymore when your faith grows to that strong level. Many people in bible were filled with Holy spirit. this is something christians don't consider much but what it did for them was that it gave them much faith and they couldn't deny Jesus as savior anymore.... so believing in God in that sense couldnt ever stop for them because they had really met God through Holy spirit. which leaves virtually no condition on salvation.

unless there would be some other faith requirement other than believing that Jesus is the savior.

 

[jari]

If i may answer those verses posted by isaac. i don't think they are talking about salvation. if they were it could clearly say so. but other words is used than loosing salvation or alike so I must take what Paul says literally for what He says and not what someone might think.
the scripture is not matter of private interpreation but it says what it means so I try to always understand by what it is infact saying. and not give any words a new meaning which the Apostole did not choose to use.

Fall from grace - Gal. 5:1-4,13

only possibility to fall from grace is not trust grace it self. this is what Paul was saying you can see it from the context. they had started using circumcision (jewish law) to justify them self. this was falling from grace.
it doesn't mean losing salvation however.
christian may fall from grace if they don't trust God's grace but bible doesn't say that legalism (which they fall into) causes them to loose salvation.

Be led away with error - 2 Pet. 3:17

yes error from right christian walk but it doesn't say loose salvation. error means straying from perfection.

Error from the truth - James 5:19-20

there's certain truth that you can wander off. no mention of loosing salvation however.

Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11

no perish eternally . KJV uses word destroyed. that's what people can cause to others faith. destroying the weaker brother by their conduct.

Fall into condemnation - James 5:12

all condemnation is not from God. nontheless you may fall to condemnation. which is not good position for christian to be. christian is forgiven and therefore shouldnt fall into condemnation about anything.

Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23

well it doesn't speak about loosing salvation here. Paul is talking about maturing and said they have been reconciled.

Deny the Lord who bought them - 2 Pet. 2:1

i think that means God bought all but some deny Him and that fact probably too as well.

Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12

doesn't sound like saved person if he leaves God for good. still God decides who is saved or not.

Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27

again those bad things for christian to happen. like loosing faith. but not said it would cause to loose salvation as well. castway is what it says. castway is what happens. nothing else.

 

[Isaac001]

One of the verses that pop up is Galatians 5:4-5

4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

The definition of the word serve is: 1. to separate (a part) from the whole, as by cutting or the like. 2. to divide into parts, especially forcibly; cleave. For something to be severed, it would have to at one time been attached to the whole. In this verse we see that the individuals, who Paul was writing to, sought justification by other means, it was not faith alone in Christ alone.

Now the question we ask is, are the people that Paul referring to Christian? I say that at one time they were.

Galatians 3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

In these verses Paul asks them by what means did they receive the Spirit? He then states “Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
I think that it is obvious to see that these where once believers, but seeking to be justified by that which cannot justify they abandon the justification of Christ.

I believe that as true born again believers, there is nothing that can pull us from God, with the exception of losing faith in the finished work of the Christ, seeking to be justified by another means or just turning your back toward God and seeking to worship the desires of their flesh. You see, although we have the Holy Spirit within us, we are still free moral agents with the ability to choose right and wrong, truth or deception. This is why we see Christians who have sex outside of the marriage covenant, or a believer who drank one beer to many and got drunk. Is the Holy Spirit convicting the individual to truth “YES” but the individual has for that moment chosen to harden his heart towards God, I believe that a person after receiving Christ as his savior, can in a later time choose to harden there heart,
If humanity loses the ability to choose after the regeneration then we simply become sub-human, with no free will. Now we know that this is not true, if it where than we would be perfect people.

As always
your brother in the faith

 

[Peace Seeker]

Hi Peace seeker,

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

i do not follow your interpretation and explanation.

Be wise and reject OSAS which basically ends up to a license for immorality.

Hi, DutchChristian.

I went into as much explanation as I could, taking the time to answer every verse you posted, so that you could admonish me to, "be wise and reject OSAS". I'm guessing you didn't even bother to read what I said and your mind is made up that I'm wrong, no matter what I say. That's okay. And if I have to be labeled with the (slightly derisive) acronym, OSAS, should I start thinking of those who are against OSAS, as OSGL (Once Saved, Good Luck!)?

By the way, the first time I ever heard the term, OSAS, was here on TJ. Before that, salvation to me always meant just believing in and trusting Jesus and letting Him take care of me, and I (naively) thought that's how other Christians felt. But I now see that we don't all trust God in the same way and simple faith has been expanded by some into a huge repertoire of spiritual exercises and self-effort in order to keep what was freely given to us. I am not bothered that you believe in works salvation, but it obviously bothers a lot of you that there are people that don't.

Lastly, your "OSAS = a license for immorality" is such a ridiculous assertion! :disagree: Do you know of any born-again Christians that are wife-swapping and hanging out with the Hell's Angels? I mean really! And I take it you are accusing me (albeit indirectly) of being immoral??? If so you need some grace to cover that self-righteous finger-pointing, because your works won't suffice for that, brother!

So, I have a "license for immorality" if you have a "license for Pharisaism". See how that works? It doesn't. God bless!

 

[Christ4Ever]

Do you know of any born-again Christians that are wife-swapping and hanging out with the Hell's Angels? I mean really! !

But then again brother you have churches and many congregations who have no problem with homosexuality and would call themselves born again. Would not surprise me to find some of who you've mentioned telling folks that they are born again Christians. Truth is in short supply in this world. Yet what you mentioned brought to mind Salvation, and sin. So in the event that they are simply mislead to believe that sin is not to be accorded the same validity to them since they are now saved, against the person who is not. How then would one deal with the following situation?


There is a verse in Matthew 12:32 talks of the unpardonable sin. Yet does not attribute this specifically to either unbeliever or believer from what I can tell (I am open to correction.) Many Christians, myself included at one time (no longer), have been terribly concerned about this verse. Have we done it, maybe by accident, or even in a moment of weakness? We know through Christ Jesus we are cleansed of all sins, however, the Lord does mention this one exception that there is no forgiveness for.


I'd be curious of how either side deals with this verse as OSAS or as brother Peace Seeker mentioned OSGL?
This question is not necessarily just directed to you Peace Seeker, just so you know. You just happened to be the post which opened the door to this line of thought!
YBIC
C4E
Proverbs 27:17

 

[Shutterbug]

I do not believe that any believer is "once saved, always saved". Lucifer became Satan only because he preferred things his way, and he knows the nature of God far better than we. Problem is, the same attitude can apply to us. While this life is an opportunity to learn "a more perfect way", it is also an opportunity to deny ourselves that experience. It does not matter what your denomination and/or background is, or personal interests are; if you prefer to put your will first, then God simply cannot trust you to honour his will as he prefers. It's called backslide for a reason. We can all say our nature is "the way God made me", but is it an excuse to perpetuate our weaknesses? Paul wrote reams of material on the subject of falling away and nurturing the Churches to remain steadfast in their faith, obedience, and fruits of their faith through the Holy Spirit. Do whatever you want. In the final analysis, it won't be me you have to convince that you are right.

 

[WaitingForJesus]

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5

According to Jesus Christ your name can be blotted out of the book of life.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" Matthew 7:13

Don't be deceived by lies such as eternal security, eternity is forever.

 

[DutchChristian]

As minorities, the first century churches were under persecution the intensity of which I cannot imagine and neither can most of the people involved with these posts. Plus, they were brand new believers and as such, their faith was very shaky; the kind of people Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 3:1 - "mere infants in Christ" - very vulnerable to being lured back into the pagan beliefs they had recently left. When we discuss OSAS, we must take into account Paul's instructions in Php 2:12-13 to "...work out your salvation in fear and trembling for it is God who works in you to will and to do according to His good purpose." There are also many believers in today's church whose faith is shaky.

SLE

Please read and check out the beginning of the book Revelations at chapter 1 especially verses 9 and 10. Now my question is this: has the Lord's day come yet?

So now you will see that it describes a future event, Revelations lies still ahead of us in the future it is prophecy / unveiling of the "end". The churches are the different types of churches described by The Lord Jesus. It is talking spiritually not just physically. Jesus described the different kinds of churches.

Take care,
DutchChristian

 

[jari]

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5

According to Jesus Christ your name can be blotted out of the book of life.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" Matthew 7:13

Don't be deceived by lies such as eternal security, eternity is forever.

if there would be some verses that state born again christian can loose their salvation that would be simple enough . but these verses don't state that.

 

[WaitingForJesus]

if there would be some verses that state born again christian can loose their salvation that would be simple enough . but these verses don't state that.

Yes they do. To be written out of the book of life means to be in it in the first place, meaning be born again. Or are you saying you can be in book of life without being born again?

 

[jari]

Yes they do. To be written out of the book of life means to be in it in the first place, meaning be born again. Or are you saying you can be in book of life without being born again?

yes i do believe so.

Psa 69:26-28 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. (27) Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. (28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

 

[WaitingForJesus]

yes i do believe so.

Psa 69:26-28 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. (27) Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. (28) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

So why do you believe OSAS while Scripture is clearly against it? You have to let go of the doctrine of men and stick to what Bible says my friend. There are many wolfs in sheep's clothing deceiving millions to hell.

 

[jari]

So why do you believe OSAS while Scripture is clearly against it? You have to let go of the doctrine of men and stick to what Bible says my friend. There are many wolfs in sheep's clothing deceiving millions to hell.

your not following... and you have it all twisted. it's wolf who tell people they arent saved. wolfs dont tell tear anyone apart by saying they are saved. you have it upsides down there. and don't act like you care for scripture. Jesus says he looses none of His sheep so unless you cant tell why that can be so - if you say we can loose salvation - i suggest you don't say anything futher as you obviously don't have any answers on the matter. so don't act like you do. it's hypocrisy.

 

[Isaac001]

One of the verses that pop up is Galatians 5:4-5

4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

The definition of the word serve is: 1. to separate (a part) from the whole, as by cutting or the like. 2. to divide into parts, especially forcibly; cleave. For something to be severed, it would have to at one time been attached to the whole. In this verse we see that the individuals, who Paul was writing to, sought justification by other means, it was not faith alone in Christ alone.

Now the question we ask is, are the people that Paul referring to Christian? I say that at one time they were.

Galatians 3
1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

In these verses Paul asks them by what means did they receive the Spirit? He then states “Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
I think that it is obvious to see that these where once believers, but seeking to be justified by that which cannot justify they abandon the justification of Christ.

I believe that as true born again believers, there is nothing that can pull us from God, with the exception of losing faith in the finished work of the Christ, seeking to be justified by another means or just turning your back toward God and seeking to worship the desires of their flesh. You see, although we have the Holy Spirit within us, we are still free moral agents with the ability to choose right and wrong, truth or deception. This is why we see Christians who have sex outside of the marriage covenant, or a believer who drank one beer to many and got drunk. Is the Holy Spirit convicting the individual to truth “YES” but the individual has for that moment chosen to harden his heart towards God, I believe that a person after receiving Christ as his savior, can in a later time choose to harden there heart,
If humanity loses the ability to choose after the regeneration then we simply become sub-human, with no free will. Now we know that this is not true, if it where than we would be perfect people.

As always
your brother in the faith

 

[Michelle71]

That is basically my understanding of it as well.

God is very patient, kind, full of grace and understanding. It would take a lot to loose salvation, an act of the will to not believe in God or in redemption through Christ. There are those who have been to the brink of a catalyst that has required such a decision even after they were saved. Even after they had placed their faith in the Lord. So, yes, if their own choice is then to turn their back on God, and go their own way choosing to serve themselves they will loose their salvation.

There is a warning though. Only God knows the heart of men. When as humans we see another going off the rails, then do we then give up on them not being willing to walk the distance. We do not know who will come back to the Lord and who will not. Many Christians fall away due to the attitudes and religious legalism right within the Christian community. They are cast out, and left to fend for their own selves. So, who's hand will the Lord require an explanation from more..those who cast them out, or from the one who fell away.

 

[Isaac001]

That is basically my understanding of it as well.
There is a warning though. Only God knows the heart of men.

What a great point you made "There is a warning though. Only God knows the heart of men." So often Christians rush to judgement with statements like "They are not saved" or "They where never saved to begin with" they attempt to judge only what God can judge, the heart of man.