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Once saved can we lose our salvation??

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Nothing is about EARNING your salvation. Counting the costs is what you do before you get saved. I'm not sure why you are having a hard time understanding this concept?

stan like i said to you before the verse about counting cost isnt talking about salvation. I post the verse here so you can see what it actually says:
Luk 14:27-28 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (28) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

now its talking about becoming Jesus disciple.

if you start saying that means salvation then you are guilty of eisegesis which you hypocritically accuse me of.



I was hoping for some explanation rather than a straight refusal to recognize what Hebrews says. It is written to believers, that means BORN AGAIN. Just because the words 'born again' aren't used, doesn't mean it is addressing unbelievers. I gave you everything you need, IF you really want to see the truth in those scriptures. Trinity is NOT used in the Bible either, but we acknowledge it. You ignore verse 1, where it is clear that Luke is talking TO born again Christians. Who exactly do you think he refers to when he says;
Therefore letus move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God.
Obviously these people are saved and Luke is teaching them more than salvation.

I explained it. the truth is so simple you must missed it.




Well QUALIFIED scholars agree that it is written to 2nd generation Christians and so in order to be a Christian, you must be "born again".


nonsense. you cant even base truth on general opinions. if blind lead the blind they both fall in to ditch. So have fun in the ditch stan, that's if these loved scholars of yours are blind.


John 14:16 states who sends the Holy Spirit, and it isn't Jesus. Jesus Himself said He must go so the Father could send ANOTHER Advocate.
Again your eisegesis if causing you harm.

This is funny. You actually believe Jesus doesn't give holy spirit. what kind of belief is that. Dont you believe Jesus is God? of course you don't. Yet He gave Holy spirit to disciples after resurrection. I guess you seperate Jesus from God in your theology to really far...

They fell away because they NO LONGER believed in faith, just as Charles Templeton did. You CAN'T experience the HOLY SPIRIT unless you are saved, born-again.

Yes you can. Read your bible before trying to teach it.

In old testament Saul's men were filled with Holy spirit when they were sent to capture Samuel. And so was Saul.
this had nothing to do with their relatiship with God. I hope your not trying to lure your eisegesis here to tell me otherwise.

To say so shows an absolute lack of understanding of God's gift of salvation in Jesus.

you have not shown anything but lack of understanding so far.

So now you say Luke's audience was saved, but not in chapter 6? It is the SAME audience! If you read verses 32-39 here you will see all the warnings to persevere and not shrink back. MOUNCE translates it as follows;


if they fall away they obviously weren't his audience anymore.

Its really ridiculous to say that born-again christians cant repent. Only thing what makes sense since God's long suffering is waiting everyone to repent is that when they fall away they left God for good (back to jewish religion). Because they experienced Holy spirit theres nothing to convince them better to stay with God. That's what the falling away means. Dont you see it?
True born again wont ever fall away for good even they would backslide.

Read what John says about this if you care for truth, unless you have settled on your eisegesis already:

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


At this point I see no reason to continue this discussion with you. You obviously will not let go of your own understanding and let God show you what His word truly says.

your blinded by your hatred. leaning too much to your eisegesis, not giving room for the truth to shine in.
 
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Hello Jari, is this the most popular thread ever?

It sure does generate the emotions.

Both sides of this argument are supported by
the scripture, or so it appears.

I must agree with you on many posts, context
is definitely lacking in some peoples posts.

There is only one small problem with OSAS
methinks!

If you have received the Holy Spirit, then
after a few years you decide that you do
not desire to be saved. Is there no way
out Jari, once saved always saved?
 
If you have received the Holy Spirit, then
after a few years you decide that you do
not desire to be saved. Is there no way
out Jari, once saved always saved?

i think that's a good question. But who would not want to goto heaven?

and why would God save someone in the first place who doesn't want to goto heaven?

If christian however would feel like Job in his misery that's no reason in my opinion for one to loose their salvation. Remember that God saved us before we even dreamed of heaven.


Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


i think in that case it would be just the same old lack of faith that we can have just in different form. And the devil can attack our faith and feelings in so many ways. But like Jesus says : Joh 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

i think that's great God's promises . 1st No one can natch them out of Jesus hand. (I believe this includes the dark forces which infact operate through people) And 2nd God the father took them and gave to Jesus which reminds me of how we never saved our selves.
 
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stan like i said to you before the verse about counting cost isnt talking about salvation. I post the verse here so you can see what it actually says:
Luk 14:27-28 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. (28) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
now its talking about becoming Jesus disciple.
if you start saying that means salvation then you are guilty of eisegesis which you hypocritically accuse me of.


Well thanks for clarifying your thoughts on these verses in Luke. Within the context of Jesus' preaching here, this is BOTH salvation and discipleship. V 25-27;
Great crowds of people were traveling with him, and he turned and said to them;
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother, and wife and children, and brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
In that day discipleship was the next step, after water baptism, in believing. Many Rabbi's had disciples. It was all very local. We don't do the same thing today, obviously the discipleship we have is more one on one. The basic premise is still the same however. Counting the cost. Then the cost was much more as Jesus said in Luke 9:23-26;
Then he said to all, “If someone wants to come after me, let him deny himself, and let him take up his cross daily, and let him follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake, this person will save it.For what good will it do a person who has gained the whole world but has lost or forfeited his very self? For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of this one will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
We are meant to be His disciples in our everyday walk, or do you disagree with what Jesus says here? ANYONE is ALL that come to Him.

nonsense. you cant even base truth on general opinions. if blind lead the blind they both fall in to ditch. So have fun in the ditch stan, that's if these loved scholars of yours are blind.

LOL...nonsense? Good refutation. Is this typically how you defend your faith?



This is funny. You actually believe Jesus doesn't give holy spirit. what kind of belief is that. Don't you believe Jesus is God? of course you don't. Yet He gave Holy spirit to disciples after resurrection. I guess you separate Jesus from God in your theology to really far...


At this point I don't know WHAT your theology is, but it seems to constantly be against what the scriptures say. Maybe you can tell us what you think John 14:16 says so we can be as enlightened as you seem to be?



Yes you can. Read your bible before trying to teach it.
In old testament Saul's men were filled with Holy spirit when they were sent to capture Samuel. And so was Saul.
this had nothing to do with their relationship with God. I hope your not trying to lure your eisegesis here to tell me otherwise.

Really. I know Saul was demon possessed in 1 Samuel. What scripture are you referring to here? It can't be chapter 19 because that one is about God COMING ON all Saul's men and even Himself to Prophesy in favour of David, as depicted in verse 24.
I can assure everyone here that I do NOT practise eisegesis, unlike certain people I debate, especially those who can't even use it properly in a sentence. Maybe you can also show where anyone can receive the Holy Spirit without being born again, which is a NT experience, so please keep it in the NT if you can.



you have not shown anything but lack of understanding so far.


LOL... sounds just like a little kids response... "I know you are, but what am I?" Give me a break Jari.


if they fall away they obviously weren't his audience anymore.
Its really ridiculous to say that born-again Christians cant repent. Only thing what makes sense since God's long suffering is waiting everyone to repent is that when they fall away they left God for good (back to Jewish religion). Because they experienced Holy spirit there's nothing to convince them better to stay with God. That's what the falling away means. Don't you see it?
True born again wont ever fall away for good even they would backslide.


WOW, you do test one's patience. That's right, the ones that did fall away were not his audience. His audience were the believers/born-again/saved that he didn't want to see fall away from Jesus. Do you know what the word APOSTASY means?
Again you make a statement WITHOUT any scriptural support. I suggest you talk to your Pentacostal pastor to get his take on these statements of yours. Maybe he can help you with getting this in a Finnish perspective. I have been Pentacostal for over 40 years and have never heard so much bad doctrine. BTW, why would you prefer the KJV when you first language is Finnish? Maybe you should be using a modern English or a modern Finnish translation to help you understand.



Read what John says about this if you care for truth, unless you have settled on your eisegesis already:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
your blinded by your hatred. leaning too much to your eisegesis, not giving room for the truth to shine in.


WOW! ALL the ad hominems. I won't bother going into 1 John...ask your pastor. Since you brought it up though, you may want to read 1 John 2:29.

I won't be discussing anything further with you about this thread Jari.
 
Perfect answer Jari.

"and why would God save someone in the first place
who doesn't want to go to heaven?"


If someone spends some time thinking about both
sides of the debate, both are valid of course.
 
Perfect answer Jari.

"and why would God save someone in the first place
who doesn't want to go to heaven?"


If someone spends some time thinking about both
sides of the debate, both are valid of course.


Why would God create mankind when He knew they were going to mess up?
Because God has a plan and those who truly love Him will follow it. Those of course who don't, won't, and that is how hHe made us...with free will.
 
Why would God create mankind when He knew they were going to mess up?
Because God has a plan and those who truly love Him will follow it. Those of course who don't, won't, and that is how hHe made us...with free will.

Hello Stan53, nice to meet you.

The questions you asked are outside
the boundary of the thread. I would
certainly enjoy discussing your questions
with you, but you would need to create
a thread for this.
 
Hello Stan53, nice to meet you.

The questions you asked are outside
the boundary of the thread. I would
certainly enjoy discussing your questions
with you, but you would need to create
a thread for this.

Hi David,

I don't think my question was outside the boundary and if it was then certainly your last response to Jari lead me there.
Oh and BTW...OSAS is NOT supportable in scripture, but falling away is.
 
LOL...nonsense? Good refutation. Is this typically how you defend your faith?

is that how you defend yours? (by avoiding to response what was said)

LOL... sounds just like a little kids response... "I know you are, but what am I?" Give me a break Jari.

that response was copy of yours kiddo.

incredible that you dont remember what kind of responses you make and then get upset when you get similar response back.

Stan: "To say so shows an absolute lack of understanding of God's gift of salvation in Jesus."



honestly stan i think you need to do some maturing overthere if you can only responses that are trying to black paint others without anything actually useful to say. All your is saying is basically that i don't know nothing because it doesn't make sense to you.
Only if you had said earlier you consider your self as the only correct interpreation helder we wouldn't have to bother ever discussing about this.

I find it odd you don't wish to go look at concept of whole bible in order to better understand hebrews. you don't think that's important?

you have not responded anything to what i said about hebrews you make assumption without backing them up with scripture. and suddenly tell me i havent posted scripture? you didnt even want to look john reference i posted. why your being so difficult. is that because you said you don't want to discuss this yet you make responses?


Maybe it's best for me to just say that i see you really believe not only possibility of losing salvation but really working on it to have it. you probably think your biblical like you say and correct but so do many others and your free to believe about your self whatever you wish. And about my interpreation whatever you wish. Im not going to argue with you.


At this point I don't know WHAT your theology is, but it seems to constantly be against what the scriptures say. Maybe you can tell us what you think John 14:16 says so we can be as enlightened as you seem to be?

take a look in John 14:18


Really. I know Saul was demon possessed in 1 Samuel. What scripture are you referring to here? It can't be chapter 19 because that one is about God COMING ON all Saul's men and even Himself to Prophesy in favour of David, as depicted in verse 24.

you obviously have some problems with connecting God and Holy spirit in scriptures. God is spirit. Holy spirit is God's spirit. Chapter 19 is talking no other than Holy spirit influencing Saul and his men.

if you want NT references I can think of Judas being part in miracle's (casting out demons, healing sick) but none of the disciples had received holy spirit until Jesus resurrection.


WOW, you do test one's patience. That's right, the ones that did fall away were not his audience. His audience were the believers/born-again/saved that he didn't want to see fall away from Jesus. Do you know what the word APOSTASY means?
Again you make a statement WITHOUT any scriptural support.

you haven't shown any scriptual support. just your idea of what falling away means. So you decided it means apostacy. Very fine choise sir. Something many would pick. Now may i ask for that scriptual support? Oh of course not. you dont have such.

Well as it happens I do and I already showed you scripture that christian cannot fall away.
here's it again:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


There are many many other scriptures that show that hebrews cannot mean born again christian never coming to repentance. I know this is what you want to think but God's word says otherwise.

If it were true they could fall away and not come back what Jesus says about the lost sheep would not be true:

Mat 18:12-14 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? (13) And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. (14) Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Nor parable of prodogial son.

nor what Peter says.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


so now If Lord wants no one to perish and is saving people , how can you say born-again cannot come to repentance? sounds more like to me hebrews is talking about people who don't believe at all and don't want to but fall away.

it's bad bible study to give some words a traditional meaning. by doing so your trusting some men's knowledge and their correctness. this is bad because if they were wrong you are wrong. and they probably would not give the same meaning to most words you do by using their definitions. it just isn't a good idea to try using someone else's definitions.
 
Nothing can separate you from God. Nothing can take you out of his hand, except YOU. If you don't want him anymore it is like a divorce by someone who does not want to reconcile and wants nothing more to do with you. There is no relationship anymore. God will never leave you nor forsake you though. Only YOU can dump Him. He is faithful
 
Hello stan53.

I am not a fan of "free will".

Free will implies by definition an absence of external
influence(s). I shudder every time I see that phrase.

I have never been a fan of "free will", the scripture forces
upon us the true reality of mans slavery to sin and death.
Without Christ we are all on death row stan53. No pardon
from the sentence is possible, no free will involved.

A life controlled completely by external forces!

No one by "free will" would ever choose God
rather they are much more comfortable obeying the
spirit of the air (devil). Performing the works of the flesh!
No one of their own volition seeks God.

Scripture does state;

Romans 11
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Did you notice that God has given all over to disobedience.
God gave us over to sin. No free will is possible in this state,
"we do what we do not want to do". This sinful nature
controls us absolutely, free will is absent but choices
though not free of external influence are still made.
Never a choice for God though.

There is only one choice in life of absolute importance.

Will you choose under the influence of the Holy Spirit,
Life and Liberty or sin and death. This is the only true
choice available, emancipation from sin or the default death.

Colossians 1:27

27 to whom God willed to make known what are the riches
of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.


God's will properly understood is love manifested in His
Son's sacrifice for us. God does all things from the stand
point of Love. For God so loved the world...
Always love is expressed through His will, in fact the only
real outcome of the Christian life is love from a pure heart.

We celebrate the immense beauty of God's will fully realized
in the full and eternal reconciliation freely granted to us in Christ.
God's elaborate will has already taken place, from long ago.

Jari has a solid understanding of the scriptures stan53.

If salvation was left purely up to our ability to respond to
the Gospel, then God help us all stan53.

I love Jesus stan53, so does Jari, we are just sinners
saved by God's will (love).
 
Hello stan53.

I am not a fan of "free will".

Free will implies by definition an absence of external
influence(s). I shudder every time I see that phrase.

I have never been a fan of "free will", the scripture forces
upon us the true reality of mans slavery to sin and death.
Without Christ we are all on death row stan53. No pardon
from the sentence is possible, no free will involved.

A life controlled completely by external forces!

No one by "free will" would ever choose God
rather they are much more comfortable obeying the
spirit of the air (devil). Performing the works of the flesh!
No one of their own volition seeks God.

Scripture does state;

Romans 11
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Did you notice that God has given all over to disobedience.
God gave us over to sin. No free will is possible in this state,
"we do what we do not want to do". This sinful nature
controls us absolutely, free will is absent but choices
though not free of external influence are still made.
Never a choice for God though.

There is only one choice in life of absolute importance.

Will you choose under the influence of the Holy Spirit,
Life and Liberty or sin and death. This is the only true
choice available, emancipation from sin or the default death.

Colossians 1:27

27 to whom God willed to make known what are the riches
of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.


God's will properly understood is love manifested in His
Son's sacrifice for us. God does all things from the stand
point of Love. For God so loved the world...
Always love is expressed through His will, in fact the only
real outcome of the Christian life is love from a pure heart.

We celebrate the immense beauty of God's will fully realized
in the full and eternal reconciliation freely granted to us in Christ.
God's elaborate will has already taken place, from long ago.

Jari has a solid understanding of the scriptures stan53.

If salvation was left purely up to our ability to respond to
the Gospel, then God help us all stan53.

I love Jesus stan53, so does Jari, we are just sinners
saved by God's will (love).


The only thing I can say to you is read Philemon 1:14, where IN CONTEXT, Paul writes; but I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that your helpfulness might not be by compulsion but by your own free will.

Just because you chose the right way doesn't mean other's will or can't. The Father may draw us but WE, of our own free will, have to make the choice.
Even Jesus excercised His free will when He prayed in Matthew 26:39; “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me! Yet not as I will but as you will.”

Having free will does not mean we aren't subject to God's universal laws. The one ALL people are subject to is the law of sowing and reaping.

Loving Jesus has nothing to do with understanding God's Word. This is why Paul Told Timothy to study. He knew Timothy loved Jesus, as did Paul. I have no doubt you love Jesus.
 
Liberty...free will?

“Liberty” and “freedom” have been the rallying cries of millions throughout history.From teenagers rebelling from parental authority, to ethnic tribes rebelling against unjust government, liberty has been the ultimate dream of mankind since Eden. Any insurrection against existing authority can be seen, depending on your perspective, as a bid for freedom. Even Lucifer’s rebellion in heaven can be understood as a bid for freedom from whatever rules and laws that he considered unjust or unfair. So not all rebellions are justified, even though ‘freedom’ may be the rallying cry for supporters. Therefore, not all freedom is necessarily good; I would question if total freedom is even desirable, even possible?

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
What is this liberty wherewith Christ has set us free? And what is it that we are set free from?
Gen 2:15 -17 And Jehovah God took the man, and put him into the Garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And Jehovah God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam and Eve were created free to choose any of the trees of the garden to eat from, except one. An entire orchard of good trees straight from the creative genius of God Himself, uncorrupted by any disease, pest, or imperfection, every fruit, nut, and berry was perfect in flavor, looks, and nutritional value. Adam and Eve were free to choose, but independence was not an option. Freedom, or liberty, to many means complete independence. It means loosed from what they see as the shackles of society, freed from what they believe to be the bondage of laws and restrictions that govern human behavior. Libertarians believe man is better off devising his own moral and ethical boundaries, finding his own limitations, without having to be obliged to obey ethical restraints placed upon them by society.
What they do not realize however, is that there is no such thing as complete freedom. It simply does not exist, and cannot.
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To be perfectly free, to be utterly independent is impossible. Take for example the natural laws that govern life here on earth. The only way to overcome e.g. gravity, is through living in an artificial environment. And although one may then be free to float about in the air, yet that same one is restricted to the environment he has placed himself in. He is not free. In fact, he is less free than when he was when under the law of gravity.
What of civil laws governing restrictions on driving for example. One needn’t have much of an imagination to see the consequences of anyone thinking they are free to disobey any of those laws. In fact, many do drive as if they are free and the results are seen daily on our news channels. Civil laws of many kinds are essential.
And the spiritual world? Many Christians today think as ‘libertarians’. They view the cross of Calvary as their passport to freedom from any obligation to obey the law. They see any obligation to obey the Ten Commandments as a burden. And they often use Gal. 5:1 as evidence to support their stand. The ‘bondage’ they say, is the moral law of Ten Commandments. Many even excuse their sin by claiming it is impossible to obey the Ten Commandments. Thus they seem to repeat the reasons for Lucifer’s rebellion in the beginning. “I don’t like God’s laws, they don’t suit me, I can’t keep them anyway, so I will rule my life, not God.”. Or failing that, they believe God Himself has done away with them. Thus they believe God has lowered His standard to meet our deficiency, rather than lifting us up to meet His standards.
The laws of God are reflections of His character. In doing away with the laws of God, or thinking one is free from the obligation to obey them, is akin to doing away with God Himself. In the natural world or the secular,we rid ourselves of law only by undermining the authority upon which they were first established. And in the spiritual world, any attempt to disobey, or seek to be free from moral laws, places us at enmity with the Authority of the one who first established them. So whatever freedom Christ offers, isn't freedom from obligation to obedience. The freedom God offers us through Christ is the same freedom that Adam and Eve once enjoyed, but through disobedience, lost. You see, Adam and Eve had freedom, but only within a particular parameter.
They were free to choose between two alternatives.They could believe God and keep His commandments, or believe Lucifer, and become their own god. They chose the latter. And as a result, they lost freedom. They were forbidden to then partake of any of the trees of the garden, being exiled to the outer world, and the garden, particularly the tree of life, was placed under guard that they may not enter. The freedom they had was the liberty to choose between two masters. They could choose to obey God, or choose to obey the lust and the selfish desire of their own flesh. The master they chose bound them in far greater bondage. What freedom they lost! Adam and Eve had an entire garden, maybe what we might today call a forest, to choose from. A limitless variety of good things from which to freely partake, with the exception of just one!
Satan has since reversed the order. Whereas in the garden the choice was between much good and a little evil, today the choice is between much evil and little good. The way of evil, Jesus told us, is a wide way, well traveled, and much used. The way to life is narrow, hard, and lonely.
Rom 6:16-23: Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness unto sanctification. For when ye were servants of sin, ye were free in regard of righteousness. What fruit then had ye at that time in the things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life. For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Through Christ we are restored to a state of liberty where we have restored to us the power to choose to obey God’s laws. Through faith in His sanctifying power, we can obey the Creator God, the Almighty Father, as our Master and Lord. And instead of the restriction of wickedness that plagued our lives and incurred not only the wrath of God but brought upon our miserable stultified existence pain, suffering, discontent, sickness and death, we now have available to us unlimited potential. An infinite existence beyond man’s wildest imagination. A God who offers us a life that by the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, can raise us up to heights of right living that were previously unimaginable.
An unbeliever would claim that becoming a Christian would limit his horizons, his potential, and ability to express his true self. But what he is doing is choosing his own restrictive confines of time, space, knowledge and experience. He is merely choosing himself as a god, one greatly limited to his own ignorance. And sadly, many Christians are experiencing the same limited existence through unbelief.
But through God’s promises, we can become partakers of His own divine nature. We are transformed into the same character of Christ. What glorious freedom there is in Christ. What unlimited potential there is for one who is willing to surrender their old sinful self on the altar of sacrifice and allow God to renew them in His Son’s image.
“Whom do ye serve?” One without Christ has no choice but to remain locked into a lifestyle of sin and rebelliousness that result in only one sure thing, eternal death. But praise God Who has redeemed us by His grace, has freed us from the tyranny of Satan, of sin, and of death, and has given us the glorious liberty to choose Him and reject the old ways, and the old masters.
But what of the law? Four hundred years of slavery found the family of Abraham ignorant of God's ways, and in bondage to Egypt. They were slaves not just to sin, but to the consequences of sin. Sin had so corrupted mankind that the greatest then known nation on earth, Egypt, was utterly bound in a prison cell of idolatry and all the corrupt occultic abominations and superstitions that accompanied it. When God chose Moses and Aaron to approach Pharaoh to free the Hebrew slaves from their bondage, for what purpose was God offering Israel this freedom?
Exo 3:14-18 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel……thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, Jehovah, the God of the Hebrews, hath met with us: and now let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to Jehovah our God.
See also Exo 4:22,23. Exo 5:1 Exo 6:6-8 Exo 7:16 Exo 8: Exo 9:1,13.
Israel was offered freedom for the sole purpose of serving and worshiping the true Creator God. God was presenting Himself as a direct contrast to Egypt’s present system. Jehovah was saying, through Moses, that there is no room for more than one god. “I am the Lord, there is no other!” In the midst of a generation that worshiped anything that crawled, swam, slithered walked and flew, Israel was being called out to worship the One True Creator of all things and serve only Him. Were they forced to worship and serve God? Not at all. God does not compel us to obey. Just as Adam and Eve had the choice, so did Israel. They may well have refused to believe Moses and neglected to prepare for the exodus and die in Egypt, or chosen to surrender to the Egyptians when faced with seemingly insurmountable odds at the Red sea. They may at any time have left the camp in the wilderness and returned to Egypt. But what God was doing was releasing Israel from a situation where they had no choice.
And once on the other side of the Red Sea, Israel was no longer obliged to obey Pharaoh, but could still worship the same gods as Pharaoh if they chose! And sadly, that is exactly what they did! They built a calf made of gold and proclaimed that this was the god that brought them out of Egypt. The Lord however had an alternative. God offered them a covenant and if Israel would keep to their side of the agreement, they would become a kingdom of priests, holy and acceptable to God. This covenant was expressed in terms of Ten Laws, or Ten Commandments by which Israel would live. These laws weren’t anything new as far as the world was concerned, they had already had a taste of the Sabbath for a month or so, and the patriarchs would have been thoroughly familiar with these moral laws, but which had become unfamiliar to Israel over the previous years of servitude and ignorance.
Deut. 30:10-20 if thou shalt obey the voice of Jehovah thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; in that I command thee this day to love Jehovah thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, that thou mayest live and multiply, and that Jehovah thy God may bless thee in the land whither thou goest in to possess it. But if thy heart turn away, and thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish; ye shall not prolong your days in the land, whither thou passest over the Jordan to go in to possess it. I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; to love Jehovah thy God, to obey his voice, and to cleave unto him; for he is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which Jehovah sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
And just as Israel were no longer bound by the restrictive slavery of false worship and idolatry, so also are we no longer bound by sin, for sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are no longer under law, but under grace. Romans 6:14.
“What then? Shall we sin, because we are no longer under law, but under grace? God forbid!! Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves as servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye become the servants of righteousness. Romans 6:15-18.
Note that we are not completely free. Christ does not make us independent. We do not, as a libertarian would argue, become free to any obligation to the law. We are only free to choose our master. And it is our master who decides whether we keep the law, or not. If we choose sin the law has dominion over us. We stand condemned. However, if we choose Christ, He changes our hearts and minds, writes His law upon our hearts, and gives to us His righteousness in exchange for our sinfulness. Because of the hopeless nature of man’s predicament, we cannot choose righteousness, and then attempt to keep the law with our own strength. That is attempting the impossible.
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end, everlasting life, for the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:20-23.
There is our liberty. We are set free, not to sin, but to obey. Our liberty is granted us for the express purpose of our serving and obeying a new Master. And as we choose to obey, God grants us the power to do so.

For brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, (that is, to sin), but by love serve one another. For the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Gal. 5:14,15.

Rom 13:9,10 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law.
Perfect freedom therefore is found only in the context of obedience to God’s commandments, through love. As Israel was free to serve God in the wilderness, their ultimate freedom was found in obedience to God’s commandments which resulted in their entering into the promised land; as Jesus was free to obey His Father and speak only His Father’s words, and act only according to the will of His Father, His obedience led to His resurrection and His acceptance before the Father as the perfect sacrifice on our behalf, which in turn makes the way open for to us to receive the same freedom to obey God’s commandments through love, that we also may walk as Jesus walked, victorious overcomers and this promise will be ours:
Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14
Where Adam and Eve failed in their choices, Jesus overcame that we may not fail in ours. And where Adam and Eve lost their right to the tree of life through disobedience, we, through Christ’s obedience being imparted to us by the grace of God and the power of His Spirit indwelling in us, may once again have the right to eat of the tree of life.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. James 1:25
 
Remember brakelite I did quote (Acts 15), avoiding sexual
immorality. Instructions for the Gentiles from the apostles!

Read the following passages please.

1 Thessalonians 4

1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus,
that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk
and please God, that you excel still more.

2
For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;


This is Acts 15, Paul's instructions regarding sanctification. ABSTAIN from sexual immorality.
Paul does not quote the ten commandments, Paul is quoting the Jerusalem Council Acts 15.

A careful reader will note the word abstain not "you shall not".

Note also "what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus"

By the authority of Jesus Christ!!!

Paul does not mention the law of Moses.


 
if we don't do anything to receive salvation how can you loose it if there's no way on earning it? If there's no way to succeed in saving your self then there's no way of failing to save your self. Salvation is truly a gift of God according to scriptures. I find no such things from scripture that talks about loosing a free gift or God not loving you anymore.

Tit 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Really does God raise His standards if we can loose salvation? Aren't we saved thanks to His love anymore? Do we have to repay salvation? Does He stop loving us after pardoning us?

Were we just investment of God which He gives away if it doesn't turn to profit? There's nothing we could ever give to God. It's He who gives us ALL things. Really I don't think there's any expectations from us. That's what grace means; Unmerited Favor And Free gift (According to bible dictionary).

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
 
In any life situation, submitting to the law of the land gives us freedom to NOT worry or have to worry about NOT obeying. Obeying the posted speed limit makes us free to just drive. When the Jews obeyed the written law they were free in the sense that there was no recrimination. The fact is though that even those that obeyed the written law, or spoken law, were slaves. In John 8, Jesus spoke to the Jews who believed in Him and said;
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (v31-3) Pay attention to the very next verse;
They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
Then Jesus answered in verses 34-35; “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever."
Then Jesus concludes the thought by saying; So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Freedom ONLY exists in Jesus Christ.



 
Remember brakelite I did quote (Acts 15), avoiding sexual
immorality. Instructions for the Gentiles from the apostles!

Read the following passages please.

1 Thessalonians 4

1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus,
that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk
and please God, that you excel still more.

2
For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;


This is Acts 15, Paul's instructions regarding sanctification. ABSTAIN from sexual immorality.
Paul does not quote the ten commandments, Paul is quoting the Jerusalem Council Acts 15.

A careful reader will note the word abstain not "you shall not".

Note also "what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus"

By the authority of Jesus Christ!!!

Paul does not mention the law of Moses.



Actually David, you are wrong. Sexual immorality comes direct from the law of Moses. So also does the injunction against the eating of blood and eating food sacrificed to idols. These express commands of the Jewish council for the Gentile believers was quite understandable, as they would have been quite confused because so many Jews wanted them to be circumcised. The council and Paul, agreed that circumcision was out of the question. This was an ongoing issue in the early church. Interestingly Paul had Timothy circumcised to satisfy the critics. (Wonder if that was a mistake? Giving in to the opposition despite his own testimony to the contrary). What Paul did not refer to was the law of God. The Ten Commandments is not the 'law of Moses'. The Ten Commandments might be quoted 'in' the law of Moses and be an important reference within it, but it is quite distinct and a seperate law, a seperate code, written by two distinctly different people on different materials and stored seperately, and more esentially, both had quite distinctly different purposes. It is this failure on your part to recognise those differences that gets into a confused mindset regards what was abolished at Calvary.
 
Actually David, you are wrong. Sexual immorality comes direct from the law of Moses. So also does the injunction against the eating of blood and eating food sacrificed to idols. These express commands of the Jewish council for the Gentile believers was quite understandable, as they would have been quite confused because so many Jews wanted them to be circumcised. The council and Paul, agreed that circumcision was out of the question. This was an ongoing issue in the early church. Interestingly Paul had Timothy circumcised to satisfy the critics. (Wonder if that was a mistake? Giving in to the opposition despite his own testimony to the contrary). What Paul did not refer to was the law of God. The Ten Commandments is not the 'law of Moses'. The Ten Commandments might be quoted 'in' the law of Moses and be an important reference within it, but it is quite distinct and a seperate law, a seperate code, written by two distinctly different people on different materials and stored seperately, and more esentially, both had quite distinctly different purposes. It is this failure on your part to recognise those differences that gets into a confused mindset regards what was abolished at Calvary.

Hello brakelite.

Good to receive a reply from you.

Since you have intimate knowledge of the ten commandments,
may I ask you to explain the highlighted line using only the ten.

Remember sexual immorality covers many areas.

Thanks brakelite.
 
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