Once saved can we lose our salvation??

[Beans]

So, you believe, Beans, that the things that Paul wrote in his letters were not as ... pure ... as the things that are written in the Gospels, that Jesus himself said? You think there is a difference between what the Holy Spirit said through Jesus than what the Holy Spirit said through Peter?

Yes I think that as the perfect Son of God, come down from Heaven, that Jesus had a special relationship with God and an intimate understanding of God's will. No, I think the Holy spirit is the same for us as it is for Jesus. It is just our ability to hear and obey that differs.

Would you know anything about Jesus Christ and what he did, or what he said, without the Bible, or someone else telling you of him?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

No. I would not. And your point is?
Yes, the Bible tells us about God, and contains the words of God through the prophets, Disciples and Jesus himself, which makes it a VERY valuable and important historical document, but only Jesus is "The Word of God".

 

[Beans]

Jesus Words are No More Important than the others !

Perhaps you could give us a few scriptures to support your claim?

The same Holy Ghost that taught Jesus taught the disciples!

This is true, but like I said to Stickz, it is only our ability to hear and obey that differs. As ordinary people like us, I don't think they carry the same authority as the eternal words of Jesus (Matt 24:35).

Plus Jesus Became the new Testament after He died on the Cross and Rose from the dead ! Becoming the New Covenant ! changing the Law and the Priesthood! Jesus was born in the Old testament under the Law of Moses ! We Should all be taught by The HOLY GHOSt !that why God gave a Partt of his very being to each of Us!

Yes, Jesus died and rose to life so that we could have the Holy Spirit. That is true. But dies that negate the Teachings of Jesus, really? What Jesus taught was different to the Law of Moses and it definitely intended to supersede the old testament teachings.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

So why teach it to his followers, if he did not intend for us obey it?

Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:

Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

1Jn_2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Pro_3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

2Co_13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

These are all great scriptures. And it is really wonderful that we can have access to God in this deeply personal and spiritual way. But I would draw the line at saying that it makes us wiser than Jesus.

Luk 11:31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.

 

[Beans]

I believe we are getting off the topic here. maybe we should start another thread on this topic of God's Word. just saying :coocoo:

Yes you are probably right, but perhaps I can explain the connection I see between the two issues.
If I am not mistaken, the OSAS doctrine focuses more on the teachings of Paul than on the teachings of Jesus, and the reason they feel they can overlook such significant parts of scripture is because they believe Paul's teachings supersede the teachings of Jesus. Which I feel do not feel is a wise position to take, considering what Jesus said about his own words.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

 

[spirit1st]

Listen , Jesus was Born in the OLD TESTAMENT , Under the law of moses ! much of what he said ,was because He lived under the lawof Moses ! some was when He became the new Covenant , the new Testament 1 He changed the Law and priesthood after He died on the Cross and rose from the DEAD!

Heb_9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.


Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Heb_8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb_12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The New Laws which were Always the laws of the Kingdom are LOVe and Faith !
the new Priesthood is Judah

Heb_7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Rev_5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.


1Th_5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti_1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Gal_5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Listen they could not understand till they got the HOLY GHOST!

 

[Beans]

Sure. Jesus was born in the Old Testament and his death brought in the New Testament, I have no problem with that. The trouble I have with your reasoning is that you seem to be saying that because Jesus was born in the Old Testament he did not know anything about the New Testament and that what he said became obsolete as soon as he died.
I totally disagree, and Jesus' teachings (particularly the sermon on the mount) indicate that his understanding of The Kingdom of Heaven was extensive. What Jesus taught superseded the Old Testament (Matt 5:21-27).
I don't understand how you can argue that Jesus did not know and understand the grace that his sacrifice would bring. Do you really believe that JESUS was ignorant of God's grace and therefore we can disregard what he taught?
Perhaps you should clarify that?

 

[spirit1st]

Some things He said was for the New Testament ! Some was for the time He was living in! The disciples did not undersrtand much , until they got the Holy Ghost! Just as we need the Spirit of truth to understand ! Jesus being our Perfect example , could only live in the power we can live in !

Heb_9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

He revealed some to the disciples , But they did not understand much of it !

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We need the Holy Ghost too open our eyes to Spiritual trues!
the carnal thinker cannot see these deeper spiritual trues!

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[Beans]

I agree that the disciples did not seem to understand a lot of stuff until they received the Holy Spirit, but I think Jesus was disappointed with that. So maybe there is more they could/should have done?

You say, that some of Jesus teachings were for the OT and some are for us, but how do you decide which ones are which?

I'm not convinced that it the case myself. Since Jesus says that ...

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

and also

Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

So sure, we need the Holy Spirit to help us to follow the teachings of Jesus and sometimes to understand them too, like the disciples. But his teachings are spirit too.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Which makes me think that the Holy Spirit is not going to contradict the Spirit and life in Jesus words. That wouldn't make much sense would it?

 

[Swordsman4JC]

hello shell84,
i hear the same thing, but God has never let me preach any thing other than that he will keep that which is committed to him, never let me preach back sliding or loosing your salvation, for if we a born of the church, we are his child, he will love that child even when we mess up, but we will always be his child, like i belong to my parents, you can change my name an every thing, but the blood that is in me came from my dad an mom, just like the one that is with in us when are saved, an new man is there, that blood of Christ can never be washed away or taking off, we have his DNA and like king David God chastised him because God chose him, as he chooses us he was Gods servant as we are, an when we sin or comes short of his glory we are chastised as well, because he loves us, wants us to do better in his graces and live closer to him. but ahve to repent and ask him to have mercy, like David did.

This scripture help me a lot through my hard times, when i doubted...
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

if your salvation is of God then you have the victory!

 

[Stan53]

Being new hear and all though the OP is a tad old, I feel the need to post a reply to bring some broader perspective.

Heb 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Heb 10:36-39
You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. For,“In just a little while,
he who is coming will come
and will not delay.” And,
“But my righteous one will live by faith.
And I take no pleasure
in the one who shrinks back.”

But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
Rom 11:22
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

We MUST persist, we must "run the race", "fight the good fight", "press on towards the goal". Jesus also said;

Matthew 5:13
“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot."

These are just a few scriptures that show us to NOT take anything for granted after we are saved.

 

[jari]

that's the issue with being saved by grace stan. some claim they are saved by God but if you put condition on this salvation then how was you saved by God in the first place?
Is salvation like first three months free ? then there's price?

salvation by nature is gift of God. there's no conditions ... it's therefore of grace and not of our merit. Eph 2:8-9. And because its of grace it cannot be lost by any standard because again it was not earned in the first place.

Heb 6:4-6 is talking about people not trusting in Jesus sacrafice hence recrucifying him to them self. if you study hebrews carefully you see that distrust in God's ultimate sacrafice was the authors concerns and not the trust of it.



Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
.....
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[Montovine]

I believe in my heart that once a person is saved by the blood and mercy of Jesus Christ no man. no entity can snatch that away. Philippians 1-6 He who began a good work is just and faithful to complete it. I have seen no where in the Bible where God has ever broken a promise. However, may I tell you a story and maybe this is where all the uncertainty lies within a person. At about 12 years old I accepted Christ as my Savior and was baptized. I have always loved hearing the Gospel of Christ preached. Loved the stories in the Old Testament. To this day my heart sores and truly loves talking about and hearing the word of God. But, my question today at 55 was I truly saved when I was 12 years old. I have not been to church in many years; nor do I have a close relationship with other Christians. The reason is I feel inadequate to be with other believers, and in many congregations, I feel the message is watered down to entice membership. This is my reasoning anyway. To equate myself with the Once Saved always Saved, I am and have for many years, been struggling with the notion of my own salvation was I truly saved. I have a desire to be at the feet of my Lord, hearing him, listening to him, worshiping him. But I am not there, or at least I don't feel I am there. When I entered my teenage years I left the church, and started doing things I was not proud of. In my adult years I continued doing worldly things, while trying to be a Christian. I tried attending Church and being with other Christians, that was my true desire, but something always drove me away. At 55 I am still doing things in my heart I feel are not honorable to God, or the ways of a true follower of Christ. We are told in Matthew 7:16, you will know them by their fruits. What is that exactly. I know many people who do not love the Lord, who show compassion, love, are charitable. So what are the fruits that separate a Christian from the rest of the world. My heart longs for the Lord. I desire Christian fellowship. I despise the World. But is this a true saved life. When Paul teaches he talks about when the Holy Spirit enters our lives, there is a change. I see no outward change in my life, not really. I will keep praying, and I will keep searching, I want to serve no other master, but I believe it is all in Gods time and not mine. If I am to be a Child of God he will show me the way. My reason for writing this is to say, that perhaps, the truth of it all is. We cannot lose our salvation, but perhaps we have yet to be saved.

 

[Montovine]

Just one other thing, sometimes I feel I am a little depressing when I respond to things. I don't mean to be, I am only trying to be honest with myself and others. A week before 9/11 happened my mother passed away. I remember while I was cleaning out her home, and and those planes struck the towers I watched in wonder if this was the end of our Nation as we knew it. If a great battle was going to begin. I remember going to sleep one night, and dreaming that I was all alone, nothing but stones around me. I heard what I perceived as my Mothers voice saying to me just stay on the path. That dream has stayed with me, because the right path is that which leads to God. So no matter what my mind tells me about salvation, my desire is for the Lord. And I will continue to struggle to read his word, I will continue to pray, I will keep my mind on Christ on the goal. And the rest I will Leave to God. He is the answer to it all. I have no desire to leave this world separated from my heavenly Father, in this world I have had a glimpse of what it may be like without ever knowing his love, being separated from him for eternity, not ever being able to love him or worship him. So for anyone struggling as I am, just stay on the path. I believe in my heart that God is true and just. And his promise is something we can take to the bank.

 

[Stan53]

that's the issue with being saved by grace stan. some claim they are saved by God but if you put condition on this salvation then how was you saved by God in the first place?
Is salvation like first three months free ? then there's price?

Jesus paid the price.

salvation by nature is gift of God. there's no conditions ... it's therefore of grace and not of our merit. Eph 2:8-9. And because its of grace it cannot be lost by any standard because again it was not earned in the first place.

Heb 6:4-6 is talking about people not trusting in Jesus sacrifice hence re-crucifying him to them self. if you study Hebrews carefully you see that distrust in God's ultimate sacrifice was the authors concerns and not the trust of it.



Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
.....
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.[/QUOTE]


Paul talks about the price of salvation;

1. 1 Corinthians 6:20
   you were bought at a price. Therefore honour God with your bodies.
2. 1 Corinthians 7:23
   You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.

Jesus Himself said we need to count the cost.

1. Luke 14:28-30

“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’"


It is indeed by grace we are saved, through faith. God draws us to Jesus(Grace) and we respond by faith to the call. We count the cost and make the choice, of our own free will.
Your understanding of Heb 6:4-6 is flawed. Luke is talking about true believers here. Broken down, it looks like this;

• who have once been enlightened
• who have tasted the heavenly gift
• who have shared in the Holy Spirit
• who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age

These are all believers, born again. God says "It is impossible for those, who have experienced all that, and who have fallen away, from those salvation experiences, to be brought back to repentance. This is the proper exegesis of this portion of scripture. Anything else is purely eisegesis to support OSAS.

 

[Stan53]

I believe in my heart that once a person is saved by the blood and mercy of Jesus Christ no man. no entity can snatch that away. Philippians 1-6 He who began a good work is just and faithful to complete it. I have seen no where in the Bible where God has ever broken a promise. However, may I tell you a story and maybe this is where all the uncertainty lies within a person. At about 12 years old I accepted Christ as my Savior and was baptized. I have always loved hearing the Gospel of Christ preached. Loved the stories in the Old Testament. To this day my heart sores and truly loves talking about and hearing the word of God. But, my question today at 55 was I truly saved when I was 12 years old. I have not been to church in many years; nor do I have a close relationship with other Christians. The reason is I feel inadequate to be with other believers, and in many congregations, I feel the message is watered down to entice membership. This is my reasoning anyway. To equate myself with the Once Saved always Saved, I am and have for many years, been struggling with the notion of my own salvation was I truly saved. I have a desire to be at the feet of my Lord, hearing him, listening to him, worshiping him. But I am not there, or at least I don't feel I am there. When I entered my teenage years I left the church, and started doing things I was not proud of. In my adult years I continued doing worldly things, while trying to be a Christian. I tried attending Church and being with other Christians, that was my true desire, but something always drove me away. At 55 I am still doing things in my heart I feel are not honorable to God, or the ways of a true follower of Christ. We are told in Matthew 7:16, you will know them by their fruits. What is that exactly. I know many people who do not love the Lord, who show compassion, love, are charitable. So what are the fruits that separate a Christian from the rest of the world. My heart longs for the Lord. I desire Christian fellowship. I despise the World. But is this a true saved life. When Paul teaches he talks about when the Holy Spirit enters our lives, there is a change. I see no outward change in my life, not really. I will keep praying, and I will keep searching, I want to serve no other master, but I believe it is all in Gods time and not mine. If I am to be a Child of God he will show me the way. My reason for writing this is to say, that perhaps, the truth of it all is. We cannot lose our salvation, but perhaps we have yet to be saved.

Nothing can 'snatch' us from Jesus, but just as we responded to God's drawing and confessed Jesus as Saviour of our own free will, we can decide to walk away, just as Charles Templeton did.

 

[jari]

Jesus Himself said we need to count the cost.

Luke 14:28-30

“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’"


It is indeed by grace we are saved, through faith. God draws us to Jesus(Grace) and we respond by faith to the call. We count the cost and make the choice, of our own free will.
Your understanding of Heb 6:4-6 is flawed. Luke is talking about true believers here. Broken down, it looks like this;


who have once been enlightened
who have tasted the heavenly gift
who have shared in the Holy Spirit
who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age


These are all believers, born again. God says "It is impossible for those, who have experienced all that, and who have fallen away, from those salvation experiences, to be brought back to repentance. This is the proper exegesis of this portion of scripture. Anything else is purely eisegesis to support OSAS.

i don't think Jesus parable about tower building and Jesus paying our penalty (thus buying us) has anything to do with each other.

And yes hebrew doesnt say they were born again. .....don't add to God's word.....

That's exactly the problem that they had become partakers of Holy spirit and did not believe.

I don't think you have carefully read the book of hebrews. taking few verses out of context and drawing conclusion by what they sound of leads to gross error.

 

[Stan53]

i don't think Jesus parable about tower building and Jesus paying our penalty (thus buying us) has anything to do with each other.

And yes hebrew doesnt say they were born again. .....don't add to God's word.....

That's exactly the problem that they had become partakers of Holy spirit and did not believe.

I don't think you have carefully read the book of hebrews. taking few verses out of context and drawing conclusion by what they sound of leads to gross error.

It's about counting the cost, or do you think Jesus was actually talking about a building? Jesus had to count the cost of dying for us and we have to count the cost of giving our lives to Him.
First of all Hebrews is written TO born again believers, as is ALL the epistles in the NT. Believers = Born Again. Luke says in verses 1-2;

Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
​

​

It seems some people don't even have the basics down. In v4-6, as I have already showed and you have obviously ignored without justification, that these people were;

once been enlightened,
tasted the heavenly gift,
shared in the Holy Spirit,
tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age.
​

The in v6 he writes; and who have fallen away. You can't fall away from salvation if you don't have it or never experienced it in the first place, which these people clearly did. You can't just TEST out God. The Holy Spirit will not infill a person who is NOT saved or born again.
Again you practise eisegesis, instead of sound exegesis. It is obvious you are using it to futher your belief in the doctrine of OSAS.

 

[DutchChristian]

Once saved can we lose our salvation?? the answer is yes you could and you yourself would be to blame and not GOD

 

[jari]

It's about counting the cost, or do you think Jesus was actually talking about a building? Jesus had to count the cost of dying for us and we have to count the cost of giving our lives to Him.
First of all Hebrews is written TO born again believers, as is ALL the epistles in the NT. Believers = Born Again. Luke says in verses 1-2;

If i remember correctly counting cost was about following Jesus.... and not earning your salvation....

It seems some people don't even have the basics down. In v4-6, as I have already showed and you have obviously ignored without justification, that these people were;

I replied to your post. did you skip my response..?

The in v6 he writes; and who have fallen away. You can't fall away from salvation if you don't have it or never experienced it in the first place, which these people clearly did. You can't just TEST out God. The Holy Spirit will not infill a person who is NOT saved or born again.

It doesn't say fallen from salvation. It just says fall away. as in fall away from closenes to Holy spirit due to unbelief in Jesus as the giver of Holy spirit and salvation.

Again you practise eisegesis, instead of sound exegesis. It is obvious you are using it to futher your belief in the doctrine of OSAS.

that's not true. it would be twisting scriptures to say heb is talking about born again believers. Everyone who has experienced Holy spirit just isn't. we must also believe in the giver of Holy spirit, Jesus.
they fell away because they were jews who did not believe in Jesus as their savior, even though they experienced Holy spirit.

The author sounds infact sure that the audience he was writing to was saved. Heb 10:39.
And:
heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.


It's also God's promise that whosover will believe in Jesus will not perish. Joh 3:16. Now God doesn't break His promises nor is He a man that He should lie.

 

[jari]

Once saved can we lose our salvation?? the answer is yes you could and you yourself would be to blame and not GOD

how can you say your self would be to blame if you preach people can lose their salvation, which creates disbelief in salvation, and which creates lack of hope, and which creates falling away from God?

by preaching people can lose their salvation you are discouraging them to continue following Jesus.

atleast thats how i feel.

maybe your following is entirely fear driven and not love driven.

 

[Stan53]

If i remember correctly counting cost was about following Jesus.... and not earning your salvation....

Nothing is about EARNING your salvation. Counting the costs is what you do before you get saved. I'm not sure why you are having a hard time understanding this concept?

I replied to your post. did you skip my response..?

I was hoping for some explanation rather than a straight refusal to recognize what Hebrews says. It is written to believers, that means BORN AGAIN. Just because the words 'born again' aren't used, doesn't mean it is addressing unbelievers. I gave you everything you need, IF you really want to see the truth in those scriptures. Trinity is NOT used in the Bible either, but we acknowledge it. You ignore verse 1, where it is clear that Luke is talking TO born again Christians. Who exactly do you think he refers to when he says;
Therefore letus move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God.
Obviously these people are saved and Luke is teaching them more than salvation.

It doesn't say fallen from salvation. It just says fall away. as in fall away from closenes to Holy spirit due to unbelief in Jesus as the giver of Holy spirit and salvation.

and if THAT isn't eisegesis, I don't know what is? Your mind must be really fit what with all the mental gymnastics you have to do to get through the Bible?
Why would Luke warn against falling away from agnosticism? You are grasping at straws my friend.

that's not true. it would be twisting scriptures to say heb is talking about born again believers. Everyone who has experienced Holy spirit just isn't. we must also believe in the giver of Holy spirit, Jesus.
they fell away because they were jews who did not believe in Jesus as their savior, even though they experienced Holy spirit.
The author sounds infact sure that the audience he was writing to was saved. Heb 10:39.
And:
heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
It's also God's promise that whosover will believe in Jesus will not perish. Joh 3:16. Now God doesn't break His promises nor is He a man that He should lie.

Well QUALIFIED scholars agree that it is written to 2nd generation Christians and so in order to be a Christian, you must be "born again".
John 14:16 states who sends the Holy Spirit, and it isn't Jesus. Jesus Himself said He must go so the Father could send ANOTHER Advocate.
Again your eisegesis if causing you harm.
They fell away because they NO LONGER believed in faith, just as Charles Templeton did. You CAN'T experience the HOLY SPIRIT unless you are saved, born-again. To say so shows an absolute lack of understanding of God's gift of salvation in Jesus.
So now you say Luke's audience was saved, but not in chapter 6? It is the SAME audience! If you read verses 32-39 here you will see all the warnings to persevere and not shrink back. MOUNCE translates it as follows;

Instead, remember those former days in which, after you had received the light, you weathered such a difficult struggle with suffering. Sometimes you were made a public spectacle, both by insults and persecutions, and at other times you became one with those who were treated in that way, for in fact you shared the sufferings of those in prison, and with joy accepted the confiscation of your belongings, since you knew that you yourselves had a better and lasting possession. Therefore do not throw away your boldness, which has great reward.
You have need of endurance, then, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. For “just a little longer, the one who is coming will arrive; he will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faithfulness. But should he shrink back, my soul will take no pleasure in him.” But we are not of those who shrink back and are lost, but are of those who are faithful and so
preserve their soul.

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Obviously these people are saved as you say because they received the light, but it doesn't SAY they are 'born again', to use your logic.
So if they are 'born again', why are the ones in Heb 6 not 'born again'? Both groups received the light.
John 3:16 is very clear, WHOEVER believes will not perish. If they STOP believing, then they WILL perish. Again you use eisegesis to make God's word fit your beliefs, instead of letting God's Holy Spirit show you what His word says.

At this point I see no reason to continue this discussion with you. You obviously will not let go of your own understanding and let God show you what His word truly says.

God Bless you.

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