Once saved can we lose our salvation??

[Episkopos]

This book 'Gospel Salvation' by dag heward mills really helped me understand the basics of my salvation and what a person goes through when saved. I believe that once you have an understanding of this it will help you answer your question. Here's a short excerpt I really liked- "The PrinciplesMan is a spirit, has a soul and lives in a body.The spirit of an unsaved man is dead and desperately wicked.The spirit of a saved man is righteous and truly holy.After you are born again, your spirit is a newborn baby and it must growAfter you are saved, your mind is still the same; it must be renewed.After you are saved, your body is still the same; you must keep it under control.After you are born again, your mind is still open to all kinds of thoughts; you must learn to think on the right things."

Visit his website for the e-copy of the book

 

[jari]

bible says that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved so i guess you think this is a lie.

 

[Beans]

No I just believe in repentance, that's all I'm saying.
A lot of people "call upon the name of the Lord" when they are in trouble, but when they are safe they forget about him.
Calling on Jesus is just the start. We have to continue in the faith.
If we just call him Lord but don't do what he says, then he's our Lord in word only (Matthew 7:21).
Is that kind of faith enough to save us? I don't know.

 

[jari]

the faith required is defined in john 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

whosoever. includes also those who haven't done His will.

sure someone can believe in God and in Jesus and call Him lord but what matters more than mere belief in Jesus existance is believing in Him as your savior...

you know lots jews believed in God. They saw God's miracles in wilderness yet God said they would not enter the promised land due to their rebellion which shows they had unbelief too. Heb 3:19

so its not mere belief that God exists but that Jesus died for you, that is the faith we need.

 

[Stickz]

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What is not explained in this verse is what "believeth in him" means. What exactly does one have to believe and for how long do they have to continue to believe it? I know that a lot of people believe this verse to thoroughly explain everything about Christianity, but when other verses throughout scripture seem to contradict the way that many interpret this verse, one has to either decide to continue believing that having said the "Sinner's Prayer" once in their lives was sufficient or they have to let the other verses in the Bible help them to shape what might have actually been intended in John 3:16. When you consider that Jesus was the Word of God made flesh

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

one should at least consider the idea that maybe John 3:16 meant for us to believe the Word of God. And if so, how much of it? How do we define one who believes the Word of God? How often can we disobey the Word of God and still say that we believe it? So, what does "believing"in Jesus consist of? John 3:16 is actually a very vague verse, nothing specific and nothing explained. If you were to give ONLY this verse to someone who isn't "saved" it would do very little for them. One needs other verses from scripture to help them to understand what is being spoken of in John 3:16 and "Christians" differ on which verses help to explain it.

 

[jari]

Jesus is savior. Not bible.
If the law given through moses and rest of God's word could not save then a savior was needed. So i believe faith in Jesus as savior is meant by believing in God's only begottten son.

Jesus didn't come to give instructions that save. He came that people would be saved.
the word could have all be given through moses, but it came through Jesus because Jesus came to give grace. Joh 1:17

believing the words is not the most important its believing in Jesus whats important:
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

 

[jari]

Beliving douptly means anything else that believing in Jesus:
(or believing and following every word of God)

Joh 7:38-39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

(39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


the apostoles and first christians didnt receive Holy spirit by no other reason than witnessing Jesus resurrection and believing in Him.

it wasnt their scholarship that eventually gave them valid Faith. They only believed in Jesus.......

 

[Romans 8.28]

Romans so your saying all we have to do is believe in Jesus and were automatically saved? And what are we saved from?

Hi bgsda, and I'd sure hate to have to pronounce your name, but yes I do believe that in believing on the Lord Jesus we're saved. Saved from what? Judgment.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Yes praise God I believe James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

 

[hector1978]

Unfortunately we have both the spirit and our sinful nature to live with. We often times will fall for even though we are saved we are still sinners. Now I'm not saying that we should use that as an excuse but always strive to repent quickly and confess to our Lord. Importantly it is knowing that God can and will forgive us. His mercy is limitless and his love for you endures many obstacles and sins. The turning away from sin that you do each time you will have to do for the rest of your life on earth. We all sin and unfortunately we will continue to struggle with it at times. Keep fighting and God bless!

 

[bgsda]

very well put Hector as the Holy Spirit put it thru Luke in chpt.9:23And he saidto them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY , and follow me. Key word daily. Not just one time in a alter call and im automatically going to heaven. Its a daily denying of self. if self wins confess and get back up again. its bad to think that you can be overtaken by the devil and since you made that one alter call in 1981 because you felt something that youll make it to heaven.
I dont have a heaven or hell (so to speak) to put anyone in but the Scriptures is plain about this.
Romans so your telling me you can go to a mall shoot up and kill 30 people today, God Forbid, and youll make it to heaven. Dont be deceived. God bless

 

[jari]

so your telling me you can go to a mall shoot up and kill 30 people today, God Forbid, and youll make it to heaven

your telling me you need daily denial of self to prevent you from shooting 30 people in mall?

 

[Beans]

Jesus is savior. Not bible.
If the law given through moses and rest of God's word could not save then a savior was needed. So i believe faith in Jesus as savior is meant by believing in God's only begottten son.

Jesus didn't come to give instructions that save. He came that people would be saved.
the word could have all be given through moses, but it came through Jesus because Jesus came to give grace. Joh 1:17

believing the words is not the most important its believing in Jesus whats important:
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Hi Jari. I imagine this is going to open a whole new area of debate, but I feel it is an important fundamental difference between my understanding of Jesus and the Bible and the understanding of those who support OSAS.
I notice that both you and Stickz talk as though the Bible is the Word of God. But the Bible itself does not actually support that view. What the Bible says is that JESUS is the Word of God.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS

You will notice in this next verse (as in the previous one) that it sounds pretty silly if you try to insert "Bible" wherever it says "The Word of God".

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

So in my mind, when you talk about the "Word of God" you are actually talking about Jesus. The Word made flesh (John 1:14). So when Jesus says

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

it makes me think that since he is the Word of God perhaps what he taught might be more significant than the rest of the Bible, with regards to our salvation.

Getting to the main point; Jari said

believing the words is not the most important its believing in Jesus whats important.

and quoted John 12:47 to support that statement.
If you read the next two verses you will see that Jari has taken the verse completely out of context.

Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

What Jesus was actually saying is quite the opposite of what Jari is saying. Jesus is saying that if we reject his words (teachings) we will be judged by those same words on The Last Day! He is also saying that his words come from God (hence they are the Word of God).
This of course, is quite different to the OSAS position, that once you say the little prayer you don;t have to do anything and can never be lost. Which like bgsda, I find very hard to make sense of, particularly when you look at the teachings of Jesus.

Peace. Beans

 

[jari]

it makes me think that since he is the Word of God perhaps what he taught might be more significant than the rest of the Bible, with regards to our salvation.

thank you for telling me where your coming from to this discussion. so you don't believe all parts of bible are equal to God's truth. just making it clear.

i just want to say i believe they are and what apostoles spoke are same things Jesus spoke.

it's often the audience the letters were written to is so different from whom Jesus spoke to.

and quoted John 12:47 to support that statement.
If you read the next two verses you will see that Jari has taken the verse completely out of context.
Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
What Jesus was actually saying is quite the opposite of what Jari is saying. Jesus is saying that if we reject his words (teachings) we will be judged by those same words on The Last Day! He is also saying that his words come from God (hence they are the Word of God).

let's not forget what Jesus said in verse 47 or does it not mean anything?

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

how is that Jesus says He doesnt judge and then he judges after all?
because if any man Rejects Him (verse 48) and receives not His word... Then the word will be judge at the last day.
But if anyman hears (listens to) His words and believes not Jesus does not judge him (verse 47)

so only those who dont want to hear (reject Him and therefore reject also His word) will be judged by the word.

 

[Stickz]

Beans: Hi Jari. I imagine this is going to open a whole new area of debate, but I feel it is an important fundamental difference between my understanding of Jesus and the Bible and the understanding of those who support OSAS.
I notice that both you and Stickz talk as though the Bible is the Word of God. But the Bible itself does not actually support that view. What the Bible says is that JESUS is the Word of God.

Does the Bible contain words that were spoken by God, or words that were given by God to other men, such as prophets and apostles, that were meant for people, such as us, to be able to read and decide whether we believe them or not?

Okay, so some people have decided that the Holy scriptures have been through the hands of way too many men, and even the oldest texts ( those that were translated from to get our modern translations ) were altered many times by the hands of men, and thus cannot rightly be trusted. Not that I believe that to be true, but even if were true, isn't that all we have? I, personally, have not heard the actual words of Jesus Christ, coming straight from his lips yet, but would love to hear about it if someone else has? As far as I'm concerned, everybody on this site depends ( or should anyway ) on what is written in the Bible for what they believe in, or for their arguments when discussing Biblical topics on this site, and until another prophet is raised up for the people, by God, to teach things that may not have been covered, or fully explained, in the Bible then the Bible is the only Word of God that we have right now. Am I suggesting that we place this book, in any way, ahead of Christ in worship? Absolutely not. But, if there was no Bible, what would any of us have? The way I see it, God made sure that the pages of the Bible endured up to this generation of people. So, is Jesus the Word of God? Yes, I believe He is. And apparently so do you, Beans, but WHY do you believe that? Because it says it in the Bible, correct? Maybe I don't really understand your point? The Lord's words give life, and until He begins to talk audibly and personally to us, the Bible is the closest thing to the Word of God ( a written record of the Words of God that were given to men in the past ) that we have.

 

[Beans]

thank you for telling me where your coming from to this discussion. so you don't believe all parts of bible are equal to God's truth. just making it clear.

i just want to say i believe they are and what apostoles spoke are same things Jesus spoke.

it's often the audience the letters were written to is so different from whom Jesus spoke to.

Yes. I believe that what Jesus taught carries more weight than the other Bible writers, simply because he is the Word and Son of God. But that does not mean that I don't read what the other writers say.
After all Paul says

2 Tim 3:16. All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

But inspiration does is not the same as infallibility. The only one who even comes close to being infallible is Jesus.

Jari said:

let's not forget what Jesus said in verse 47 or does it not mean anything?

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

The discussion was about whether Jesus words were significant to salvation. The context in the following verses indicates that they are VERY significant. More so than any Bible writer. Yes, Jesus came to save the whole planet but he came to judge it too. So it's a kind of "yes" and "No" answer, so if you leave out half of the answer, it changes what being said.

so only those who dont want to hear (reject Him and therefore reject also His word) will be judged by the word.

While you seem to agree that we will all be judged by Jesus words, you still do not seem to be getting the point. You say people "reject Him and therefore reject also His word". No actually, what the verse is saying is that we reject Jesus by rejecting his words, not the other way around.

 

[Beans]

Does the Bible contain words that were spoken by God, or words that were given by God to other men, such as prophets and apostles, that were meant for people, such as us, to be able to read and decide whether we believe them or not?

Yes!

Okay, so some people have decided that the Holy scriptures have been through the hands of way too many men, and even the oldest texts ( those that were translated from to get our modern translations ) were altered many times by the hands of men, and thus cannot rightly be trusted. Not that I believe that to be true, but even if were true, isn't that all we have?

What you say is true, even though it has passed through the hands of many men, the Bible is the best record of what Jesus did and said that we have. What I am saying is that the BIBLE itself does not say that it is the Word of God. The Bible says that JESUS is.

I, personally, have not heard the actual words of Jesus Christ, coming straight from his lips yet, but would love to hear about it if someone else has? As far as I'm concerned, everybody on this site depends ( or should anyway ) on what is written in the Bible for what they believe in, or for their arguments when discussing Biblical topics on this site, and until another prophet is raised up for the people, by God, to teach things that may not have been covered, or fully explained, in the Bible then the Bible is the only Word of God that we have right now. Am I suggesting that we place this book, in any way, ahead of Christ in worship? Absolutely not. But, if there was no Bible, what would any of us have?

No I have not heard Jesus speak either. I think you are misunderstanding my point. I was just saying that Jesus' teachings should take pre-eminence over the other scriptures, not that we should through throw out the bible.

The way I see it, God made sure that the pages of the Bible endured up to this generation of people. So, is Jesus the Word of God? Yes, I believe He is. And apparently so do you, Beans, but WHY do you believe that? Because it says it in the Bible, correct? Maybe I don't really understand your point? The Lord's words give life, and until He begins to talk audibly and personally to us, the Bible is the closest thing to the Word of God ( a written record of the Words of God that were given to men in the past ) that we have.

Yes I agree. It seems miraculous that the bible has survived almost untouched until now.
Just to clarify, I don't believe in Jesus because the bible says he is the Son of God, or because someone told me that he was. I believe in Jesus because what he taught is supernaturally profound, wise and true. It is this that convinced me that he is who he says he is and from there I started my personal journey with him as my Lord.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[bgsda]

I believe we are getting off the topic here. maybe we should start another thread on this topic of God's Word. just saying :coocoo:

 

[jari]

Jari said:
The discussion was about whether Jesus words were significant to salvation. The context in the following verses indicates that they are VERY significant. More so than any Bible writer. Yes, Jesus came to save the whole planet but he came to judge it too. So it's a kind of "yes" and "No" answer, so if you leave out half of the answer, it changes what being said.


While you seem to agree that we will all be judged by Jesus words, you still do not seem to be getting the point. You say people "reject Him and therefore reject also His word". No actually, what the verse is saying is that we reject Jesus by rejecting his words, not the other way around.

i don't know why you see it that way - seems pretty clear it's true and proper way reading it like i explained.
we'll just have to disagree on the interpreation. but it seems you forgot Jesus words about Him not judging. and satisfied on Jesus simply judging after all though He first said He doesn't. Does not seem right to me this interpreation of yours.

 

[Stickz]

You: No I have not heard Jesus speak either. I think you are misunderstanding my point. I was just saying that Jesus' teachings should take pre-eminence over the other scriptures, not that we should through throw out the bible.

So, you believe, Beans, that the things that Paul wrote in his letters were not as ... pure ... as the things that are written in the Gospels, that Jesus himself said? You think there is a difference between what the Holy Spirit said through Jesus than what the Holy Spirit said through Peter?

Yes I agree. It seems miraculous that the bible has survived almost untouched until now.
Just to clarify, I don't believe in Jesus because the bible says he is the Son of God, or because someone told me that he was. I believe in Jesus because what he taught is supernaturally profound, wise and true. It is this that convinced me that he is who he says he is and from there I started my personal journey with him as my Lord.

Would you know anything about Jesus Christ and what he did, or what he said, without the Bible, or someone else telling you of him?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

 

[spirit1st]

Jesus Words are No More Important than the others ! The same Holy Ghost that taught Jesus taught the disciples! Plus Jesus Became the new Testament after He died on the Cross and Rose from the dead ! Becoming the New Covenant ! changing the Law and the Priesthood! Jesus was born in the Old testament under the Law of Moses ! We Should all be taught by The HOLY GHOSt !that why God gave a Partt of his very being to each of Us!
1Jn_2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Pro_3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

2Co_13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.