OSAS - debate # 2,134,567

[B-A-C]

Part 1
Once saved - always saved. This is perhaps one of the greatest dividing factors in the Church today.
There are Churches such as the Unitarians that believe everyone is saved no matter what. You don’t have to believe in God or Jesus or anything. Jesus died for everyone, so everyone is saved no matter what. (Unity Church)
Heb 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,"
Yes God will never leave us. But can we leave him? There’s an old saying that says “If you feel far from God, guess who moved!” Keep in mind, many divorces are also one sided, both the husband and the wife do not want it, but it only takes one of them to make the divorce happen.

Can we backslide?
The word “backsliding” appears in the King James 12 times, and only in the Old Testament, not at all in the New Testament.
Jer. 3:6, 8, 11, 12, 14, 22
Jer 8:5
Jer 31:22
Jer 49:4
Hos 4:16
Hos 11:7
Hos 14:4

Most believe that the tale of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) is a tale of backsliding because the son was not coming home for the first time: He was coming back home after leaving. To paraphrase, the son was with the father, left the father, and then came back to the father.
Luk 15:11 And He said, "A man had two sons.
Luk 15:12 "The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them.
Luk 15:13 "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
Luk 15:14 "Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.
Luk 15:15 "So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 "And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.
Luk 15:17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
Luk 15:18 'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
Luk 15:19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
Luk 15:20 "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
Luk 15:22 "But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
Luk 15:23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
Luk 15:24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Luk 15:25 "Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.
Luk 15:26 "And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.
Luk 15:27 "And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'
Luk 15:28 "But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.
Luk 15:29 "But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;
Luk 15:30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'
Luk 15:31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.
Luk 15:32 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"

Jesus taught a lot in parables (stories). The only place that he actually explained what the parable meant was the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:3-8 is the parable itself. It is also found in Mark 4:3-8 and in Luke 8:5-8.
Mat 13:3 And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow;
Mat 13:4 and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up.
Mat 13:5 "Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil.
Mat 13:6 "But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 "Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out.
Mat 13:8 "And others fell on the good soil and *yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.
Mat 13:9 "He who has ears, let him hear."
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
The explanation
Mat 13:18 "Hear then the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
Mat 13:20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
Mat 13:22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
Verse 19 is about the people who never believed in the first place because they did not understand.
Verses 20 and 21 are about people who believed for a little while and then quit believing.
Verse 22 is also about people who believed and then for various reasons quit believing.
Verse 23 is about people who never did backslide (not everyone backslides!) and who continue to believe.

In Romans 11, verse 20 we see that people can be “broken off” because of unbelief.
In verse 23 even though they were broken off, they believed again, thus God was able to “graft them in again.”
Rom 11:16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
A person cannot be something “again” for the first time. They would have had to be that something once already in order to be it “again.”

Here the Bible says that someone can quit being what they were. In other words you can be a Christian (“salt”) and you can quit being a Christian (losing your “saltiness”)
Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

1Tim 1:19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
1Ti 5:15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
In the verses below, how would they know it’s a “different” gospel unless they had already heard the gospel in the first place?
Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
Gal 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Apparently just because your name was written in the book of life, it doesn’t mean it will always stay there forever, it can be removed.
Psal 69:28 May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Could it be, there really is such a thing as going too far? Even for those who have already been used by God and have accomplished some of his work? A common argument is “well they were never saved in the first place”.
2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
2Jo 1:8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.
2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

2Jo 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
2Jo 1:11 for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.

Yes there is grace. Thank God for that.
Mat 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
Mat 18:22 Jesus *said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Phi 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Heb 3:12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
Having said all of this, do I think it happens often? No. I think it is VERY difficult for this to happen, but I do think it is possible.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
As I said at the beginning, he will never leave or forsake us, but can we leave and forsake him?
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Can we “fall way” from something we never had in the first place?
Luk 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Notice all 5 of the verses above say we are saved by what we believe in, or have faith in. Not by what we do. So how then, is it possible to get "unsaved" by what we do? We can't. We can't sin so much that we lose our salvation. (After all we weren't saved by works in the first place)
However we can sin so much that we lose our faith. (1Tim 4:11 and the parable of the sower) and once we lose our faith.. well... read those 5 verses again.

Look at Peter, he denied Christ 3 times in 1 day (after he was a believer) David committed an affair and had the womans' husband killed, Paul said he does the things he shouldn't do and doesn't do the things he know's he should do. (Romans 7)
So this woman goes back to prostitution, does she lose her salvation? Did Rahab the Harlot lose hers? How about Hosea's wife Gomer (the whole story is an allegory of Hosea as God and Gomer as Israel and how they were unfaithful to their husbands). I think the grace of God allows for mistakes after we become Christians (or believers). But you can sin so much that your faith starts to slip..
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
The word "exchanged" is key here. If you go to a store, and almost buy some pants, and never purchase them and never take them home,
well they were never yours, so you can't exchange them. However if you buy them, and leave the store with them, now you OWN them.
You can take them back later and exchange them. So this verse doesn't mean that they never accepted it, it means they accepted it as truth, even if it was for a very short while, and then "exchanged" it for something else.
Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
No.. no one is more powerful than God, not even Satan himself can snatch someone out of Jesus's hand.
But could it be, that we are free leave on our own accord?

.... continued ....

 

[B-A-C]

Part 2....

I've found that most people that debate this, also have specific view about predestination, the elect and God's sovereignty. I'm used to think that predestination was a different argument from once saved always saved, but now I am more convinced that they are almost the same subject....

Is it true that God wants everyone to be saved?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Yet we know that "all" won't be saved.
Matt 8:12, 13:42, Matt 24:51, Luke 13:28, etc...

The argument goes something like this...
Either God is in control or he isn't. Either he is sovereign over everything or he isn't.
Some people think there is no middle ground.

There are many verses in the Bible that talk about how God predestined certain things to happen. (Acts 4:28, Rom 8:29-30, 1Cor 2:7, etc..) Not to mention all the prophecies of Christ that were fulfilled (example Acts 3:18) Obviously if God said these things were going to happen, then he "predestined" them to happen.

But does that mean he predestines EVERY single thing that happens? If God truly is in control of everything, and nothing happens that he doesn't want to happen then that means every single sin that happens is God's fault. If we don't have freedom of choice and we can only do what God predestines us to do, then every murder, rape, molestation, divorce, genocide, lie, cheat and fraud is God's fault that it happens.

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

What if instead of God being in control of all of our decisons, he is in control of all our circumstances? What if the sins we do, really are our choice?

What is God is SO sovereign, that he is in control, even when we don't do what he wants us to?

Many, many times in the OT Israel was punished for disobeying God, for turning away from him and following other Gods. Was it really God's choice that Israel do this, just so he could punish them? Or was it simply their own choice?

Back to once saved always saved... some will argue.. do you think you are stronger than God? No of course not, I can't make universes, stars, planets, oceans, and millions of other things, I can't hold the world in my hands. But is it possible that God sometimes respect our choices, even when they are bad choices?

I believe God will always use circumstances and the Holy Spirit to guide us in the right direction, I believe he wants us to do the right thing.

But does he always MAKE us do what he wants us to do? It seems many who believe in once saved - always saved, when they find out someone they "thought" was saved is actually living in sin (perhaps, adultery, pornography, or some other serious sin) then they will say "well that person was never really saved in the first place".

But that isn't what the Bible says, Peter sinned after he was a believer, Paul did too, that didn't make them "un-saved".
I believe God was in control of the circumstances that they sinned in, but the choice to sin, was their own.

A favorite verse, quoted by many people says...
Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I believe this, yes God loves us all, but the love of God is NOT the salvation of God.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Re: OSAS - debate #2,134,567

I'm not saying that the OSAS debate has no importance, but, why are so many of us bent on driving our beliefs on such issues down others' throats? and doing it over and over? Does God get glory from such strident arguing? I don't think so. Isn't it because we've allowed a prideful "my way or the highway" attitude to take control of our spirituality in such matters and thus offended the God we claim to serve?

B-A-C, I applaud your choice of title for this thread.

SLE

 

[B-A-C]

I am sometimes told.. it is dangerous to tell people they can lose their salvation.
I would ask... which is more dangerous??
Someone who can't lose their salvation, but is afraid that they might (what is the danger here?) ... or ...
Someone who can lose their salvation, but think's that they can't.

I suppose God could have made us all robots... Here is some food for thought...
God creates Earth #1, with Adam #1, but oops Adam messes up and eats from the tree of Knowledge of Good ad Evil. Well I suppose God could have pressed the "reset" button on creation, and started all over again. Then God creates Earth #2, with Adam #2, but oops, Adam #2 messes up too.... (see a pattern here??)
Perhaps God could have kept on "re-setting" creation and starting over and over again with Adam #3, and #4, etc... but eventually they all would have messed up. The point here is God didn't make them to be robots, he made them to have freedom of choice. Yes, Adam made a bad choice, but does that mean God wasn't in control?

I'm sure satan would like to think so. All of Adams descendents are born into sin, and the sin keeps passing on through his bloodline to all of humanity.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Wow, sounds like satan must have won. But God had a plan....

Another "adam" came to earth in the form of flesh, born from a human mother. His favorite name for himself was "son of man". Yet, even though he came to earth as a human, he never sinned, so death could not hold him.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Because of sin, we all die.
But what if someone didn't sin?
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus didn't earn the wages of death, because he never sinned.
Now we have choice... it isn't just Adam making the choice for all of humanity, we can make the choice individually as we will. In a way, Jesus coming to Earth and breaking the curse of sin, was the same thing as God "re-setting" the universe all over again, but it was better, ... because instead of having multiple Adams make the choice for us over and over again... we can make the choice ourselves in Jesus.

Earlier... I mentioned someone might ask.. do you thnk you're stronger than God? I would ask the question back.. do you think your decision is stronger than God's purpose?

 

[agua]

Re: OSAS - debate #2,134,567

I've told you a million times to stop exaggerating.

 

[David777]

Dear B-A-C.

God did indeed press the reset button, the great flood. Only a handful survived. Perhaps you need to think through your arguments more carefully.

 

[B-A-C]

Noah and his son (and their families) still carried the curse of sin passed on through Adam. So it wasn't really starting completely over from scratch.

 

[jari]

I'm not saying that the OSAS debate has no importance, but, why are so many of us bent on driving our beliefs on such issues down others' throats? and doing it over and over? Does God get glory from such strident arguing? I don't think so. Isn't it because we've allowed a prideful "my way or the highway" attitude to take control of our spirituality in such matters and thus offended the God we claim to serve?

B-A-C, I applaud your choice of title for this thread.

SLE

we're talking about eternal fate here and i think its the most important doctrine for humanbeing. does God get glory when christians fear to lose their salvation? should they just be quiet?

i dont think so ....
but i believe its important and valid topic

 

[james g]

Eternal security is not a separate doctrine from salvation.

If you are not saved forever, you are not saved.

Those who think they are saved now but could lose their salvation later, have one of two problems: (1) either they are trusting to some degree in their works to save them, or (2) they do not understand that by trusting Christ as their Saviour, their destiny is in God's hands. Perhaps they have had little or no Bible teaching and do not realize that God has determined that all who believe will go to heaven when they die.

The first group, those who think leading a poor Christian life will result in a loss of their salvation, actually need to have the plan of salvation made clear to them. Somewhere they have not fully understood that Christ's death paid for ALL their sin, that their works have NOTHING to do with their salvation, and that only their FAITH IN CHRIST will save them. You would answer their questions just as you would almost any lost person's; it is a clear - cut problem of "grace and works." You just stay with the gospel until they see the light.

An illustration that has clarified the issue for many with this problem deals with the definition of the word "Saviour." What is a Saviour? Suppose you are drowning. There you are out in the middle of the ocean. Suppose someone were to throw you a book, Three Easy Lessons on How to Swim. Would he be a Saviour? No! Perhaps he could be called an "educator."

Now suppose a man got out of his boat, jumped in along side you, and demonstrated various swimming strokes showing you just how you ought to do it. Would he be a Saviour? Of course not. He would merely be an "example."All right, what if he took you into his boat, dried you off, fed you, took you ten miles from shore - and then threw you out again into the ocean? Would he be a Saviour? By all means, no! He would be as a "deceiver," a "probation officer,'' one who starts a heroic act and then quits right in the middle. He certainly would not be a Saviour!


A Saviour is one who takes you safely all the way to shore! When God says He gives you eternal life and that He will never cast you out or lose you, He means it because He is the true Saviour! If you do not trust Christ to take you all the way to heaven, then you have not trusted Him as your Saviour. Let's examine Christ's own promise in
John 6:37, "All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me; and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out." He says those who come to Him will not be cast out for any reason.To bring home this truth,an illustration from family life. What kind of a parent would you be if, when your child was disobedient, you kicked him out and said, "Go to hell, I'm through with you!" Rather, the proper parent says, "Come on in!" and the parent has ways and means to deal with the disobedient child.God never casts out His children! God has other ways and means to deal with them.


Some would say, "All right, God won't cast me out, but I could get out of my own will and choice." The Lord anticipated such doubts and answers them clearly in John 6:39, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which he hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." It is God's will that no saved person would ever become lost. He says He will "lose nothing,'' and you are at least something! You could never be saved and lost again. God saves you forever. This is HIS will!



On this point of not losing salvation, you will usually find that John 6:37 and 6:39 are sufficient. They are certainly clear.At times you might sense that certain cases require additional verses, and the Scriptures abound with clear teaching. Study the passages thoroughly so you will know which verses will best answer the need of the person.



I Peter 1:4


, 5, "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Notice who is keeping our salvation . . . God Himself, by His own almighty power! And He is reserving place in heaven for us.


I Cor. 6:19


, "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost, which is in you, which ye have of God . . .?" The Holy Spirit lives inside of every believer. John 14:16, 17 says, "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth . . . for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." The Holy Spirit is in believers forever. If a saved person could go to hell, the Holy Spirit would have to go to hell, too.



Eph. 1:13


, 14, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory." The Holy Spirit indwells every believer from the moment he trusts Christ as his Saviour for evermore. One important reason for this is to keep us saved and protected until we receive our glorified body. The term "earnest of our inheritance" is like when we make a "down payment on a house." It is a guarantee that the rest is coming later - now we have the new birth - later we will have our new body.


I Cor. 12:27


, "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." The moment you are saved, you become a member of the body of Christ. If you could ever become unsaved, part of Christ's own body would go to hell.



John 10:28


, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand." Notice again that Christ gives eternal life, and they who receive this eternal life shall never perish!When you look up the word "never" which occurs in John 10:28 in Strong's Concordance, you find that it comes from five different Greek words which are spelled in English: OU, ME, EIS, HO, and AION. The words OU and ME form a double negative meaning "Not at all, by no means, in no case, never." This double negative was used to state denials or prohibitions emphatically (Dana and Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p. 266). The remaining three words combine to form an idiomatic expression meaning "forever" (The Englishman's Greek New 'Testament, p. 276).


When you put all of these meanings together, you find that when Christ says "never" here in this verse it carries with it very powerful assurance - much more than one word "never" ordinarily carries with it in our minds. If we were to take this most emphatic way of saying "never" in the Greek and try to bring it across into the English, John 10:28 would read something like this: "And I give unto them eternal life and they shall not at all, by any means, male or female, in any case, forever perish."



Christians are sanctified through the death of Christ Heb. 10:10, and Hebrews 10:14 tells us, "For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." Believers are sanctified, and Christ gives them the perfection they need to go to heaven. The word "sanctified" means to be made "holy, pure and blameless" (Strong's Concordance, Greek #37). God would never send a believer to hell . . . He has made the believer holy and blameless and has given him a perfection which will last FOREVER.




John 5:24


, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Christ says those who have everlasting life (they already have it) shall not be condemned (promise for the future). Since God promises believers will not be condemned, why not take Him at His Word and realize they will not be condemned? Believers cannot go to hell: They have already "PASSED from death unto life"!


Philippians 3:9


, "And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Christ's own righteousness is given to believers. Who would dare say Christ's righteousness isn't good enough for heaven?!?



Colossians 2:13


and Acts 13:39 say the believer is already justified and forgiven of all sins. So what sin could send you to hell? In fact, when Christ died on the cross for our sins, ALL our sins were future.


Romans 8:28 - 39 teaches nothing can separate believers from God. HE justified us; nobody could charge a single thing against us! What a Saviour we have!




I John 5:10 - 13


is as clear a passage as could be written. Christ's death on the cross does not do anything for you unless it gives you everlasting life. If you have Christ as your Saviour, you have this life. Anyone who doubts that God gives eternal life is calling God a liar. Don't you think it would be very unwise to call God a liar? Personally, I wouldn't want to be in that category.


There is an illustration which you might find will interest people along this subject. One evening a man was having trouble with doubts about his salvation. His wife came into the bedroom and found her husband running his Bible back and forth under the bed, and she asked him what in the world he was doing. He said he knew Satan was in the darkest places, so he was showing Satan I John 5:13! (And this is a good idea when you have a doubt. Just claim the promise from the Word of God, and Satan will have no ground to give you doubts any more. The Word of God silences Satan.)



Since God tells me I can know I have eternal life, I say, "Thank you!" and I know I have eternal life. I am taking God at His Word. God said it . . . I believe it . . . that settles it! I base my whole eternity on the fact that God cannot lie and His Word cannot fail."God is not a man, that He should lie . . . hath He said, and shall He not do it? Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good?" Numbers 23:19.



Stanford

 

[Migdala]

There is an excellent book on this subject.....it's called "The believer's conditional security" by Dan Corner" It's over 800 pages long, and it goes over every single bible verse, objection, etc. I just finished it not too long ago.

The author is not a believer in OSAS at all. His belief is that you can lose your salvation, but by returning to Christ and repenting, you can regain it. He says that a person can get saved as a child, fall away into horrible sin as an adult, then return to Christ and be saved again.

Most people these days calls it "rededicating their lives to the Lord" rather than saying that they lost their salvation and want it back before they die.

Dan says that it's not when the person got saved that gives them eternal life, it's what their beliefs are at the point of their death. He claims that a person who gets saved as a kid, goes out and commits murder, forgets about Jesus, stops believing, etc. is not going to Heaven....unless they turn from their sins, repent and start believing in Jesus and turn back to Him for salvation.

He says that David, Peter, etc. would not have gone to Heaven unless they had repented and gone back to Christ, which they did.

Either way, it's a very good book, well worth reading!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

David, Peter, etc. would not have gone to Heaven unless they had repented and gone back to Christ, which they did.

Any fisherman knows that when a hungry fish takes the bait, it starts to "run" with it. A skilled fisherman lets the fish run until it eventually tires and the line goes slack. When the line slackens, the fisherman pulls back on his pole, anchoring the bait in the fish's mouth. He then reels the fish into his net.

Its the same with our salvation. We eagerly receive the bait - the Good News of Jn 3:16 - but, though we are sincere in receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior, we soon head back into the bumpy and painful waters of the world. However, though the ride is bumpy and painful, like the hungry fish, we hold on to the bait of the Good News and, when our swim is finally over, the Master Fisherman reels us in to our eternal home with Him.

SLE

 

[B-A-C]

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Jas 1:12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love him.

Rev 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

[B-A-C]

James, God doesn't ever turn his back on us, he in no wise casts us out. He will never leave or forsake us. I agree with all of those points. You don't wake up one day and suddenly just decide "I'm going to quit being saved today". If making a mistake made us lose our salvation, then none of us (Peter and Paul included) would be saved. He will never leave us, but he won't force us not to leave him. We can be secure in the fact that Jesus did his part and God will continue to carry us forward as long as we choose to let him. I believe you can lose your salvation, but it is a deliberate act over a long period of time. Not because you said something in the heat of the moment because you were angry at God. That's what grace is for. He knows our hearts.

 

[james g]

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Many people interpret the word salvation in this verse to refer to eternal salvation from hell. Some have interpreted Phil 2:12 to mean that Christians must bring about their own eternal salvation by obeying God.Others have suggested that the key to understanding this verse is the word out. Working out eternal salvation, they say, is different than working for it. They interpret Paul to mean that we are to put our eternal salvation into practice.

Over 70% of the time in the NT salvation refers to deliverance from death, disease, God’s temporal wrath, or as in Philippians and Hebrews, a figurative use that looks at handling persecution well with the result that one will have boldness at the return of Christ.


Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[jari]

Hi brother BAC i think the verses can be explained in the light of God's grace.

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

I think the reason were told to work out our salvation with fear and trempling is because fear is not natural for saved person because Jesus came to take away fear of death and condemnation. So these people who were trusting in God's grace had to be instructed to serve God and work on their salvation.
I dont think it means they could lose the salvation if they didnt work for it however. Becauase salvation is free gift from God its not something you can earn and boast about. Eph 2:8-9 They had to grow in their salvation and in faith in order to become strong christians.
See they already have salvation now they just have to work on what they already have, build on the foundation that is Jesus and is their savior.

I dont believe you can lose salvation but Bible talks about growing in salvation. not growing to salvation. 2Pe 3:18

Jas 1:12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love him.

The word trial is actually greek word pi-ras-mos'

Which means:

From G3985; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation, X try.

So first of , I dont know where the translators got the word Trial for it. I think temptation is better.

And if its temptations were talking about why would enduring temptation lead to heaven and failing not? As if Jesus doesnt forgive sins?
I think the verse is about effects of sins and its reasonable to endure to receive the reward of crown of life rather than gaining momemtary pleasesure from sin.
Remember Jesus game to give us abundant life but sin hinders our relitionship with Jesus and cant make us happy like Jesus can....

So idont believe the verse is talkingabout enduring anything for heaven for Jesus paid sins but its talking about enduring temptations as we should because sins reward is not good as God's rewards.

Rev 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

This may seem like aside from God's grace we need to be good christians inorder to overcome and be saved but revelations also says what allows us to overcome or what will grant us to overcome:

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

So the overcoming comes with something that has been done already by Jesus , by His shed blood.

The verse is actually after this verse that talks about "accuser of our breather":

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So salvation is come and we overcome thanks to Jesus blood. Thats the way I see it. No self effort mentioned in whole revelations to gain salvation only blood of Jesus and by their testimony they overcome the accuser of the breathen.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

James posted:

Over 70% of the time in the NT salvation refers to deliverance from death, disease, God’s temporal wrath, or as in Philippians and Hebrews, a figurative use that looks at handling persecution well with the result that one will have boldness at the return of Christ.

This is a very cricitcal point to consider when trying to understand the context of these scriptures.
The Jews of Jesus's day did not have any kind of unified doctrine about an afterlife.In fact the Saducees did not believe in the resurrection or an afterlife at all.The rest belived in the resurrection.Most ideas of an intermediate(the time between death and the resurrection) afterlife come from Jewish and Greek mythology.

Eternal means always,no begining,no end.
If your are going to be there then you would have to have always been there(whatever there is).Thats why Jesus said:
John 3:13 And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.

So if heaven is eternal no one can go there but apperently they can come from there.
So the whole "saved/unsaved" argument doesn't make that much sense to me.It would seem to have more to do with the resurrection than an afterlife.To be able to gain and then lose salvation would make eternity flash and constantly change.

We would need a far clearer picture of the next life to ever start judging such things.For me that is where the fear and trembling come in.Because it's all just so BIG.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I think the reason were told to work out our salvation with fear and trempling is because fear is not natural for saved person because Jesus came to take away fear of death and condemnation. So these people who were trusting in God's grace had to be instructed to serve God and work on their salvation.
I dont think it means they could lose the salvation if they didnt work for it however. Becauase salvation is free gift from God its not something you can earn and boast about. Eph 2:8-9 They had to grow in their salvation and in faith in order to become strong christians.
See they already have salvation now they just have to work on what they already have, build on the foundation that is Jesus and is their savior.

Thats an awesome observation,very clear and simple.
It also explains the appearent contradiction of leading a fearless life(in Christ) while fearing.

 

[Stickz]

Peace be unto you

This is an on-going debate because the two sides are talking about two separate things; they view salvation in two different ways. If you could ever truly establish what the two sides think of as salvation then maybe you would have the answer to this age old question. It isn't just two different views, it's two opposite views, so the two sides have to be viewing things in an entirely different light.

Both sides can sling scripture but it never accomplishes anything. Both sides see that the other is taking scripture out of context to prove their points, etc .... So, aside from the fact that I also see in scripture where one can lose their relationship with God ( I purposely did not use the word "saved" or "salvation" here because I view it as a future event anyway ) I'll try to explain why I, personally, believe what I believe—perhaps, we will accomplish something if we speak of our own personal experiences?

I know that many people say that it isn't about a feeling, but I feel separation from God. When I have spent the day praying and reading the Word, I feel closer to God. When I have gone days without reading or praying, and have been doing my own thing—even if the things that I have been doing were not necessarily sinful things—I feel a distance between myself and the Father. When I sin, it's a horrible feeling, so I choose to fight against doing sinful things because I don't like the way that it makes me feel.

I was "saved" when I was sixteen years old, but since that time I have gotten frustrated about things, or whatever, and have gone back into living sinfully many times. During those times, I feel that if I had died I would not have gone to Heaven. Some might say that I had "backslidden" and some might say that perhaps I had not gotten "saved" to begin with. Either way, I am sure that sin separates me from God. And when I allow myself to reach the point to where I am able to sin and not necessarily be bothered by it, then there is something definitely wrong.

This is my view on things.
What is yours?

 

[David777]

Hello all.

Rather interesting debate so far folks.

How do you guys understand the following verses.

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Galatians 6:7-10

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see the Christian life as sowing to the Spirit. Not as a legal
statement or theological system of belief.

Living in the Spirit is not a work, it is a necessity.

I would like to see how others view the verses above.

 

[farout]

BAC Why ?

Judging from your profile we come from two different theological undergirdings. We are about 17 years apart, which may have some baring on why we disagree on the theology of eternal security.

You can readily support why you believe as you do. I have read you very long list of Scripture verses and your comments relating to those Scriptures. Are all the remarks made orignal from you? I can't help but say it seems quite generally common to other sources I have read, not exactally word for word, but close.

Why do those who believe you can sever you relationship with Christ, and at some later time reassimilate yourself with Christ? In Hebrews 6:1-6 as I understand it "...it is impossible to renew them again to repentance...." So If the theology you are proclaming is you can loose your security in Christ, then most assuredly believers must be enlightened that should they "fall away" there is no way to repent and return to Jesus Christ.

I doubt there is any Scriptures that I could bring to your attention, that would change your theology about the Eternal Security of the believer. I am just as anchored in the Scriptures that secure my theology of the Eternal Security of the Believer.

For sure and certain, it is important that Christians focus on showing Christian love to one another. Once we have clearly stated our deep felt positions let the words stand as they are for those who are intrested. Unless it is to further explain a question someone raises, it seems more like attacking those who do not agree with your view. I feel real uncomfortable stating a position and then have reply back in what I believe is an angry response. Blessings.