Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

OSAS - debate # 2,134,567

Your getting warmer.

Have been reading the posts, hmmm.

Dear Christ4Ever, you quoted "1 Thessalonians 5:17", "pray without ceasing."

Do you understand the significance of this verse. From this one verse
Paul's teaching on the spiritual life is very clear.

To pray without ceasing implies a fanatical surrender to Jesus Christ.

To never cease in prayer and devotion to Jesus could in fact be the mature Christian life.

Are you sure Christ4Ever that you understand this quote.
 
Well, it has all being said here about this and that...but the point remains "Where are we getting all this to?" What shall be our end result?... I may have different opinion on what "A" or "B" might have spoken but the truth we always speak for HIMSELF (not itself). There is one thing that still border me about this modern day Christianity and that, I tend not to see it happened in the Early Church..."Fight over doctrinal issues" (do they(early Church) really have doctrines?. Methodist has her doctrines different from Baptist's, so also Anglican against Four Square Gospel Church; The lists are many....)... This has cause Church to split up into Denominationalisms, sects, groups and even cults. But the question remain: is Christ therefore Divided? I read from a passage in the book of Ephesians 4v4-5; There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and father of all, Who is above all, and through all and in you all

So, if this is true in you and me then blessed be God. This is what I see in the Life of early Christian.. James complement what Peter says, so also Peter testified to the Teaching of Paul to be of the Lord even in a deeper way. John the beloved confirmed all that the other Apostles has spoken of, Jude confirmed those things spoken by Peter, Paul and James, John and the in-pendent Judgements. In fact all of them point to that ONE FAITH, ONE LORD, ONE BAPTISM, ONE HOPE; but I beg to differ that in all our knowledge in today's modern day Christianity, We don't preach one faith because we have many faiths on our tables, neither do we preach one baptism because many of us have alot of doctrines on that, while other believed in "Baptism in name of Jesus Christ", other explained that if its not done "in the name of the Father, Son, Holy-Spirit then it couldn't scriptural". Some even go further to say "Forget it, Baptism means nothing" and the other folks says "Just do it by sprinkling of Water or infant's baptism". Does these portraites "ONE BAPTISM"? Does this show that we have ONE FAITH and ONE LORD? I leave the answer to you.

Isn't what Paul says about our generation that is fulfilling in our days? In 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Timothy 4:3-4; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables..


Peter also testifying of these things in 2 Peter 2:1-22, here is verses 1-2.. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.


Jude went further and sealed it up in Jude 1:3. In his letter jude said "contend for the Faith that was once delivered to the Saint". Why? Because many faiths, teachings were welling up. (Jude 1-21)

Brothers and Sisters, Is not doctrines we need again, we've had enough of that; enough of Church spliting because of doctrines; enough of all these clouds without rain. We need some thing different from all that. Not even something, we need The Lord Himself to lead us into all Truth!!. Those early Apostles didn't preached up to what we are preaching today before the World was TURNED UP SIDE DOWN. But Lord, we have not wrought deliverance on earth, we've labour as a woman in pain but have only brought forth Winds. Please, Save us from ourselves.
Hi. Very intriguing post, and one with which I cannot bring myself to disagree with. Imagine the frustration that God must be feeling when His people disagree so often on so much. Not just on big things such as salvational issues, but we debate heatedly on minor issues of no importance as if our very lives depend upon demanding others believe as we do. Love is left behind when we log in. Very sad.
That said, Christianity over the past 2000 years or so has had to navigate through war; a constant war being waged upon it by a foe far more superior than you or I, far more clever, insidious, cunning, and one which abides by no rules, one who is limited only by such boundaries placed upon him by the Almighty. That war resulted in the murder of millions of sincere faithful God-fearing children of God who endured torture and death rather than compromise on doctrine. What's more, those inflicting that torture were themselves claiming to do God a favour by exterminating 'heretics'.
Not only so, but they formed a system of doctrine and dogma that for many centuries, and for most of Western Europe, was the only shop in town.
Today, we are still extricating ourselves out of that system. Although some of us may not claim any more to be subservient and slavish to that system, yet many of us still blindly and ignorantly cling to many of her beliefs, so deeply has been our enemy's efforts to deceive and destroy truth.
Thus we debate doctrine. Doctrine is important. Truth is important. We must find truth. To find truth we must find the Author of truth, which I am pleased to see you acknowledge. God forbid though that we become as many mega churches are today who never discuss doctrine because it does divide. To compromise truth...to ignore truth to establish unity or grow our churches...is a major mistake. Yes, there is one faith; there is one truth; and it is incumbent upon all who love truth to search for it.
2 Thess. 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Satan has not given up. He never will.

Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Doctrine matters. Truth matters. Our lives can depend upon it.
 
So Stickz and Farout since prayer was brought up. What do you think is meant in 1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing?

I think it means we should be in "prayer mode" at every waking moment, being ready to pray (as the saying goes) at the drop of a hat. For example, I've always lived in a large metropolitan area and I've developed the habit of praying for everyone involved whenever I hear or see emergency vehicles racing by with sirens blaring.

SLE
 
I think it means we should be in "prayer mode" at every waking moment, being ready to pray (as the saying goes) at the drop of a hat. For example, I've always lived in a large metropolitan area and I've developed the habit of praying for everyone involved whenever I hear or see emergency vehicles racing by with sirens blaring.

SLE
The wise man said: Proverbs 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
In the work of heart keeping, we must be constant in prayer. We must pray unceasingly, never for a moment ceasing to petition the throne of grace for help. When I look in the mirror I don’t see someone who is righteous by the letter of the law. I see someone who has been declared righteous by the grace of God. I see someone who, as he submits to God and abides in Him through prayer and studying His word, has been renewed in the spirit of his mind and is being daily transformed by God into the image of Christ. I see someone who underneath the surface lurks more danger for the well being of others, and himself, than he knows how to handle. So every day he surrenders to Christ his Saviour, because he is only too acutely aware that without Him he can do nothing.
I cannot always be in the position of prayer, but my thoughts and desires can always be upward. I can always walk with the attitude that makes me constantly utterly dependant upon the grace and mercy of a loving caring dutiful Saviour.
 
Yo.

Nice answer Brakelite.

This is the spiritual life, true life, in which the increasing
revelation of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit
take us from death to eternal life.

From anxiety and confusion to peace and joy.
 
Have been reading the posts, hmmm.

Dear Christ4Ever, you quoted "1 Thessalonians 5:17", "pray without ceasing."

Do you understand the significance of this verse. From this one verse
Paul's teaching on the spiritual life is very clear.

To pray without ceasing implies a fanatical surrender to Jesus Christ.

To never cease in prayer and devotion to Jesus could in fact be the mature Christian life.

Are you sure Christ4Ever that you understand this quote.

Yes. More and more each day. I like your use of fanatical, since most times it's used in a negative way! One of the few times I can agree with its usage

You have to remember I was using this as an interjection to Stickz and Farout posts to reflect on prayer as not a momentary action to a specific event, which it can also be, but a continual one as 1 Thessalonians 5:17 points out. I’d agree with what you said with "could in fact be the mature Christian life." (If could was removed and part added.)

Too often Christians will look at prayer as let’s say as an “IM” to God and with the “Amen” it’s over with and we can continue on our merry way. Combining prayer and devotion as you did (loved that) to Our Lord and Savior Jesus, is not a momentary act as we know, but a continual one. My hope was that they would come to this realization by bringing up this verse inside and outside of the thread of the conversation Farout had started. Otherwise could we walk with Him and Him with us?

Love you brother.
C4E
 
I pray someone has already brought out this scripture because I am not interested in catching up with 3 pages of responses.

If one believes they can loose their salvation then please explain why this verse says different;


Ephesians 1:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-29216">13</sup> In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
 
ForumAddict, I'm intelligent enough to realize that you feel that this verse should just totally end this debate for all time. I also can't help but take note of the way that you attempted to make all of us feel foolish ( including those that are in here debating for OSAS ), but I admittedly do not see the certainty in this verse that you have posted:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Is this

ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

the part of that verse that you are looking at? Have you actually done any research on the word 'sealed' in this verse, and seen the possibilities in the word?

If the conversation, or debate, of a thread is so beneath you that you can't even respectfully read through to see what has already been said ( especially when there is only two or three pages ), perhaps, you should avoid posting in the thread completely.

I would list a bunch of verses along with some explanation and perhaps you would understand why this debate is still on-going, but you probably wouldn't actually read through it anyway.

I Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
 
Imagine the frustration that God must be feeling when His people disagree so often on so much. Not just on big things such as salvational issues, but we debate heatedly on minor issues of no importance as if our very lives depend upon demanding others believe as we do. Love is left behind when we log in. Very sad.

Doctrine matters. Truth matters. Our lives can depend upon it.

Hopefully we are having a peaceful discussion here. I have seen some disagreement, but no "all out war" or hate speeches. Despite sopme people labeling this as a "flame thread" it all seems like peaceful opinions to me.

I suppose the disagreement between Christians sometimes cause God to shake his head at us, but I suspects he loves us anyway, as we love our children even when they do things we disagree with.

Having said that, I also wonder if he gets frustrated when we don't stand up for the truth and for the gospel. Things like homosexuality and praying to angels are creeping into the church because nobody will stand up to it.

We are appointed to defense of the Gospel.
We are to use the Word to correct, rebuke, and reprove.
 
I Thessalonians 2:1 For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:

I Thessalonians 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.
 
Hopefully we are having a peaceful discussion here. I have seen some disagreement, but no "all out war" or hate speeches. Despite sopme people labeling this as a "flame thread" it all seems like peaceful opinions to me.

I suppose the disagreement between Christians sometimes cause God to shake his head at us, but I suspects he loves us anyway, as we love our children even when they do things we disagree with.

Having said that, I also wonder if he gets frustrated when we don't stand up for the truth and for the gospel. Things like homosexuality and praying to angels are creeping into the church because nobody will stand up to it.

We are appointed to defense of the Gospel.
We are to use the Word to correct, rebuke, and reprove.
I wasn't meaning that our Lord gets frustrated because we debate, but rather because the truths of our faith are perfectly presented to us within His word, yet so many of us simply don't delve deep enough to discover them. Then we debate from a shallow standpoint, having only scratched the surface of the scriptures. Gold is seldom found on the surface.
 
I Thessalonians 2:1 For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:

I Thessalonians 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

one point....

The contention/conflict Paul speaks about in 2 Thessalonians was the resistance they met in Phillipi where they were harassed/flogged/imprisoned etc by the authorities for being about God's work.


Act 16:11-12 NKJV Therefore, sailing from Troas, we ran a straight course to Samothrace, and the next day came to Neapolis, (12) and from there to Philippi, which is the foremost city of that part of Macedonia, a colony. And we were staying in that city for some days.
...
Act 16:19-21 NKJV But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities. (20) And they brought them to the magistrates, and said, "These men, being Jews, exceedingly trouble our city; (21) and they teach customs which are not lawful for us, being Romans, to receive or observe."


Paul goes on to say how he treated the group of believers in Thessalonica.

1Th 2:7-8 NKJV But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children. (8) So, affectionately longing for you, we were well pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God, but also our own lives, because you had become dear to us.
 
agua, I must disagree with you:

I Thessalonians 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention. ( KJV )

I Thessalonians 2:2 but, having suffered before and been insulted, even as ye know, in Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the glad tidings of God with much earnest striving. ( Darby )

I Thessalonians 2:2 But having suffered many things before, and been shamefully treated (as you know) at Philippi, we had confidence in our God, to speak unto youthe gospel of God in much carefulness. ( Douay-Rheims )

I Thessalonians 2:2 But euen after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated at Philippi, (as ye knowe) we were bolde in our God, to speake vnto you the Gospell of God with much striuing. ( Geneva )

Just because Paul debated with them does not mean that he wasn't gentle as well.

Acts 6:9 Then there arose certain of the synagogue, which is called the synagogue of the Libertines, and Cyrenians, and Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and of Asia, disputing with Stephen.

Acts 9:29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 17:17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.

Acts 19:8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Acts 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

Questioning one another is not a sinful thing to do. If someone becomes angry and begins threatening or throwing punches, then I believe that we should probably start questioning whether or not we are angering God with our behavior. Asking someone to prove what they say cannot be wrong. How would we ever find the answers, if asking questions is forbidden? You start more resembling a cult when you remove the freedom to question things.
 
The contention Paul spoke of in 1 Thessalonians 2 wasn't between believers. 2:2 is about the troubles he encountered while presenting the Gospel and doing God's work amongst unbelievers as he did in Philippi. In spite of this contention/conflict he persevered and presented the Gospel to the Thessalonians.
 
ForumAddict, I'm intelligent enough to realize that you feel that this verse should just totally end this debate for all time. I also can't help but take note of the way that you attempted to make all of us feel foolish ( including those that are in here debating for OSAS ), but I admittedly do not see the certainty in this verse that you have posted:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Is this

ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

the part of that verse that you are looking at? Have you actually done any research on the word 'sealed' in this verse, and seen the possibilities in the word?

If the conversation, or debate, of a thread is so beneath you that you can't even respectfully read through to see what has already been said ( especially when there is only two or three pages ), perhaps, you should avoid posting in the thread completely.

I would list a bunch of verses along with some explanation and perhaps you would understand why this debate is still on-going, but you probably wouldn't actually read through it anyway.

I Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Evidently not, or you would not have addressed it so. If you wish to distort and change God's Word then so be it but you have no right to attack me for what I have said. What is beneath me is people like you, who with their dogmatic assumptions attack others for their beliefs.

Unlike you, I take God's Word as it is and do not attempt tho change its meaning and also unlike you I did not come in here attempting to make anyone look foolish, seems you do such a good job of doing that your self.

Amazing how paranoia rears its ugly head.
 
Questioning one another is not a sinful thing to do. If someone becomes angry and begins threatening or throwing punches, then I believe that we should probably start questioning whether or not we are angering God with our behavior. Asking someone to prove what they say cannot be wrong. How would we ever find the answers, if asking questions is forbidden? You start more resembling a cult when you remove the freedom to question things.
Talk is cheap! Actions speak so much louder! Know this is not where I wish to be!
 
Hi

I pray someone has already brought out this scripture because I am not interested in catching up with 3 pages of responses.

If one believes they can loose their salvation then please explain why this verse says different;


Ephesians 1:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NKJV-29216">13</sup> In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Good question. Its not like people who believe you can lose your salvation seem to think they have it all figured out, because there's verses like this that point directly to eternal security so they simpy have to be ignored them, wich is what i believe they do.

I dont mean to be rude but this is how it has to be? Ive never heard any explanation to this.

Other is like i said in this thread or some other that Bible says we are predestinated and elected. If so.. then how can you lose your salvation if God Him self has appointed you to be saved even before you were born?
its like God chose jacob over esau even before both were born. One can specualte why , perhaps because Jacob would have the kind of heart that accepts God and His plans on him and does His will. Nontheless Jacob was chosen over esau.

Third thing I want to say that isnt it kinda odd that God calls us His children and has given us the Holy spirit and yet people say its possible that we end up in hell? That God's child could be eternally lost? After being saved. Then we could say that Jesus wasnt able to save us, after all. After all the love and regeneration all in vain. We were found and lost again. In bible God never looses anyone except Judas who was not His begin with but was before known that he would betray Jesus.

Joh 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.



That's just what ive been thinking. To me child is a child and does not become anything else. And if God is loving Father he doesnt let His child perish for ever.
Its beyond my logic that such could happen and even the bible talks about God's spirit in us that seems to unconditionally have the respond to God - Abba, Father.

Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
 
agua, I'll not argue with you. I read the verse differently than you do, and that's it. Regardless, I have also posted other verses to make my point that friendly and gentle debate/disputing is not something that wasn't done by those before us. I assume that what was okay for Paul to do is okay for me to do.

Talk is cheap! Actions speak so much louder!

That would be works, wouldn't it?
 
Its beyond my logic that such could happen and even the bible talks about God's spirit in us that seems to unconditionally have the respond to God - Abba, Father.

Dear Brother,

Not to be too abrupt, but our logic has nothing to do with it. Our logic is probably one of the things that gets in our way

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

So what's being said here in relation to this discussion is that all those who are saved will “overcome” and those who do not “overcome” never were?

In honesty I don't believe anyone can lose their salvation, however I do believe one can walk away from it. Now the real question then becomes is this done with full knowledge of the individual or not? Is it possible taking Matthew 7:21-23 that the individual might not even realize it? Or do you believe that these verses from Matthew are talking only of people who view Salvation as an act of works rather than grace? Which of cause still fits the bill, sadly, since if you were to ask them if they were saved they'd say yes.

Matthew 7:21-23 (21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Even though I believe the below verse was meant for the church at Philippi as a whole it should still cause the individual to have a regular checkup, especially if they’re not walking continually with Him.

Phil 2:12 “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

YBIC
C4E
 
Dear Brother,

Not to be too abrupt, but our logic has nothing to do with it. Our logic is probably one of the things that gets in our way

Yes logic does matter because when God speaks His words its logical and meant to be understood. For God is not author of confusion but of peace.
 
Back
Top