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OSAS - debate # 2,134,567

I doubt there is any Scriptures that I could bring to your attention, that would change your theology about the Eternal Security of the believer. I am just as anchored in the Scriptures that secure my theology of the Eternal Security of the Believer.

For sure and certain, it is important that Christians focus on showing Christian love to one another. Once we have clearly stated our deep felt positions let the words stand as they are for those who are intrested. Unless it is to further explain a question someone raises, it seems more like attacking those who do not agree with your view. I feel real uncomfortable stating a position and then have reply back in what I believe is an angry response. Blessings.

Exactly! Well-said!
That is what is missing in these so called "theological discourses."

I get depressed every time I see a clearly knowledgeable Christian calling other brothers or sisters in Christ names, or make subtle (or not so subtle) implications that those who don't agree are simply ignorant of the Scriptures.

For example, yesterday I read a website by a Christian who label another Christian website that he didn't agree with doctrinally: "masters of voodoo exegesis."

This is sad, especially when I read around the targeted website, it is clear that it's not a cult or evil website, just another group of Christians who has a different view on *some* points in the Scripture. Important those points maybe, it should not overshadow the one true Christian trait that should be obvious to anyone who came in contact with us: love (agape).

This is doubly sad because we Christians are supposed to extend more courtesy and love to our own brothers and sisters (one of the steps mentioned in 2 Peter 1:5-9). Yet we have no qualms attacking each other's character without giving the other side any benefits of the doubt.

No wonder the world looks upon us with scorn, as we do not appear different from the worst of them. At all.

So I applaud any brothers and sisters who asked the question: where is the love? It's about time we wake up.
 
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Osas

I do believe that one cannot lose ones salvation, however, one can certainly walk away from it. So I guess you can say OSAS would not be true for the one who walks away.
C4E
 
Peace be unto you

David777, I will readily admit that I believe in faith plus works. Someone who continues to live in the lusts of the flesh ( sinning ) is sowing to the flesh. Someone who mortifies the deeds of the body and learns to do the will of God, through the Spirit, is sowing to the Spirit. They are opposites. One cannot do both, any more than an apple tree can bring forth oranges. An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, nor can a good tree bring forth evil fruit.


Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith."
We have to be able to judge who is of the household of faith. There must be a way to tell them apart. By their fruits.

I John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

farout: Why do those who believe you can sever you relationship with Christ, and at some later time reassimilate yourself with Christ? In Hebrews 6:1-6 as I understand it "...it is impossible to renew them again to repentance...." So If the theology you are proclaming is you can loose your security in Christ, then most assuredly believers must be enlightened that should they "fall away" there is no way to repent and return to Jesus Christ.
Nice point. As a retired Baptist preacher, how did/do you teach the Hebrews 6 verses?
 
Why do those who believe you can sever you relationship with Christ, and at some later time reassimilate yourself with Christ? In Hebrews 6:1-6 as I understand it "...it is impossible to renew them again to repentance...." So If the theology you are proclaming is you can loose your security in Christ, then most assuredly believers must be enlightened that should they "fall away" there is no way to repent and return to Jesus Christ.

Is it possible that what was being described here if one doesn't stop at Hebrews 6:6 but continue on through 6:9 that it is not talking about salvation at all but the fruits of a saved ones labor which will be judged (II Corinthians 5:10)?
 
I have to wonder why Jesus said "consider the cost of building a tower".
Is the "tower" salvation?Or does he mean something beyond salvation.
Why didn't he say consider the cost of NOT building a tower.

In order to consider the cost of building something you have to understand the structural requirements of thing and you have to know enough about cost and availability of materials and you have to know your own finances,abilities and resolve.

It just does not seem as simple as "getting to heaven".

Hebrews 6:1-6 has a qualifier:
4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit,

I have at times considered myself enlightened then upon getting closer to the light found more spots.Have I tasted the heavenly gifts?Have I been a partaker of the Holy Spirit?

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusts in him.

What about those that haven't tasted yet,those who are faced with continual battles and have to fight for the tiniest slices of joy.
If you haven't met God and experienced his goodness I doubt you are even qualified to reject him or his son.

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man we see a picture of the afterlife that does not fit popular beliefs.
Luke 16:25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


Some people have an easier time believing in a good God.
Lazarus seems to be rewarded simply for the suffering he endured.

Who knows,maybe God sees us as individuals and he knows that it is much easier for someone experiencing a good life to believe that God loves them and has their best interest at heart.
Could there be degrees of salvation?Are there levels above salvation?
Are we really sure what salvation is?

Blessed is he who does not see and yet believes.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I would rather side with the blind on this question and go with the scripture that he will never leave me or forsake me.
If I forsake him I hope he won't give up on me.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
 
Peace be unto you

Christ4Ever: Is it possible that what was being described here if one doesn't stop at Hebrews 6:6 but continue on through 6:9 that it is not talking about salvation at all but the fruits of a saved ones labor which will be judged (II Corinthians 5:10)?
I will think on what you seem to be saying, because honestly I have tried to find another reasonable explanation for these verses other than what I have come to believe that they must be saying. I've only ever been able to see these verses in one light. When I've tried to ask others about their views on them, the conversation always gets ... difficult. I have been told that the book of Hebrews only applies to you if you are a Hebrew, but I dismiss that explanation quickly, not being one for the Dispensational view.

I see King Saul as the perfect example of what is described in these verses. He had been chosen by God to lead His people. He was given the gift of prophecy. He had a relationship with God that allowed him to ask for advice on a situation and get a quick, audible answer. But, when Saul refused to be obedient to God, God took the Spirit from him and gave it to David, and gave Saul an evil spirit instead. And Saul could never get God to speak to him again. That was when he went to the witch of Endor, which God also held against him. When God is this good to you, there is no excuse for you to not do what He intends for you to do. Hence, the rain and thorns in the Hebrew verses.

Ananias and Sapphira are New Testament examples of this same thing, in my opinion. One could question whether they were actually saved at all, but after everything that had just happened in the area, I, personally, doubt that two unbelievers would have sold their land to give to the cause. It's just my opinion, though.

I like a lot of what you have said too, Thiscrosshurts. Whether I agree with you or not, you always seem to be able to put things in a different perspective, giving someone another way to look at things.
 
I have been told that the book of Hebrews only applies to you if you are a Hebrew, but I dismiss that explanation quickly, not being one for the Dispensational view.

I don't think that God had the Bible written in part for different nations. I think the Bible, in whole, is for everyone.

And for only seeing the verses in one light, Maybe you could dive into the Bible with an open mind that the Lord can use so that HE can show you what HE wants you to know from it. Just pray before that He shows you what it means. :)
 
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OSAS & Hebrews 6:1-6

STICKZ, Christ4ever & will"

I am quite convienced people rarely change their position of osas and Hebrews 6:1-6. Most always we keep the position we were tought from the first teaching. I would like to believe, and hope in truth, that I have carefull examined the Doctrines I was taught as a child, in a Baptist church. I for sure can back up my beliefs with Scripture to at least my satisfaction. Yes, I believe in water (full dunking) baptism, and the Lords Supper being open to all born again believers. I most generally agree with the Southern Baptist "Baptist Faith and Message" except I support women in ministry and the Ordination of women. I have experienced some flack for this.

I am also willing to work with people of other denominations or those who are non-denominational. After all there will be believers in heaven from a wide variety of shapes, colors, and sizes.

To answer STICKZ about how I preached Hebrews 6:1-6. I am convienced these veses do not represent those who were "saved" and fell away. These were "enlightened" and witnessed the works of the Holy Spirit, they tasted, but never consumed. They saw the light but never walked IN the light. They were convicted, but never totally surrendered. They have no excuse for their rejecting the Holy Spirits pleading, and turning their back and committing the unpardonable sin, calling the Holy Spirit a liar in not believing Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven. Once a person has been enlightened to the fullest extent that Holy Spirit can enlighten a person to Jesus Christ, there is no way to bring that person back to a repentant heart.

My view of these Scriptures is the best way I know how to explain it , at this point in my walk with Jesus Christ. Blessings to U all.
 
farout

I want to thank you for your clean and direct answer. Usually people jump on the defensive and I can never get a straight answer out of them. Thanks for yours.


kingofkings316: I don't think that God had the Bible written in part for different nations. I think the Bible, in whole, is for everyone.

And for only seeing the verses in one light, Maybe you could dive into the Bible with an open mind that the Lord can use so that HE can show you what HE wants you to know from it. Just pray before that He shows you what it means. :)
I think that it's safe to assume that many of us do pray before we read, kingofkings, and we all still believe different things. Do you suppose that God is toying with us? How likely do you think it is that we are all right about what we believe? I have spent a lot of time in prayer: so have you, so has farout, so has will, so has Christ4Ever, so has Thiscrosshurts. Why do we not interpret the scripture the same way? Do you think that some of us just like being at odds with others?
 
I always thought that God has a different plan and a different destination for every person. So why should their way of thinking be the same. I also cannot put aside that God gave us free will. Therefor, even though we all pray, we will also come to our own conclusion. And maybe that conclusion is okay because it has to do with our own lives and not others. Our walk with God is not supposed to include everyone else in the world. So I honestly think it is just fine that everyone has a different opinion.

I also did not mean to sounds like I was accusing anyone of not praying before reading. I was only suggesting in case they hadn't. I am new here and don't know everyone here as well. So I can only assume at this moment. I am sorry if I sounded like I was being rude.
 
And for only seeing the verses in one light, Maybe you could dive into the Bible with an open mind that the Lord can use so that HE can show you what HE wants you to know from it. Just pray before that He shows you what it means. :)

By this post you are insinuating that Stickz has a closed mind, which can be seen as insulting.

SLE
 
Why do we not interpret the scripture the same way? Do you think that some of us just like being at odds with others?

Can't say exactly where on TJ, I read this and to be honest I’m not quite sure I agree, but it is something to take into consideration. He was basically saying that individuals are predisposed by their religious background on how they interpret scripture and its meaning to them. The established church has influenced individuals so much that they can’t help but introduce a certain religious bias in their interpretation of it.

I would agree that some rather enjoy the exchanges or as you put it “being at odds”. You very well might even have people who will choose the opposite position in order to challenge the person in order to make sure they know of what they speak. I’m in a “Hot Topics Study” at my church and we have a few which would fit into this category. It is not done maliciously, or to embarrass a person, however, it does make for interesting discussions and does require one to do much praying and study to uphold ones position.

I believe that God had a purpose to how scripture was written and maybe even part of that reasoning was so no person would get too comfortable in their salvation, that they would neglect contacting Him and/or researching Scripture thereby in time becoming of like mind.

Phl 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

Love you brother and you too sister!
C4E
 
Peace be unto you

Thank you, SpiritLedEd, I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one that could see the post that way. I don't hold it against her, though, she's new and has a ... fiery side? ... that will probably eventually benefit the forum.

Christ4Ever, you make some good points.
 
By this post you are insinuating that Stickz has a closed mind, which can be seen as insulting.

SLE

I already apologized for this.

I also did not mean to sounds like I was accusing anyone of not praying before reading. I was only suggesting in case they hadn't. I am new here and don't know everyone here as well. So I can only assume at this moment. I am sorry if I sounded like I was being rude.
 
Prayer before reading the Bible?

Just to add something to this thread I have a few thoughts.

I am sure there are a good number of people who read the Bible without praying. How about those who in a hotel or motel who look in a night stand and look at the Bible looking for answers to a life situation that has them at a very stressful moment. Then there those just thumbing a Bible just looking to see what it's all about.

I often look for a verse dealing with a question or just want a quick answer to give someone. Sometimes I just read in the few minuets I have for a little pick me up.

Ihave many times prayed for answers to give me wisdom and a verse to direct me.

Honestly I don't think we can make a hard and fast statement that stands for everyone at every situation.

Any thoughts?:embarasse
 
Peace be unto you

So, what do you think, farout, during the times that we read the Bible without praying first, are we allowing Satan to tell us how to interpret the scripture that we read? Thus, all the different interpretations that we have of scripture?

There may be somebody in the world that will not read anything from the Bible, no matter how big of a hurry they may be in, without—at least—a short prayer to God first. But, no, farout, I agree that we cannot make one statement in situations like this that absolutely covers all cases. There is no scripture, that I can think of, that covers praying before reading. I believe that most of us just see it as a good idea. Since reading the word is feeding the spirit, perhaps, it's like saying grace before feeding our flesh.
 
Prayer

So Stickz and Farout since prayer was brought up. What do you think is meant in 1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing

Which of cause would cover the times we just open scripture to get a little pick me up?
C4E
 
Hey, Christ4Ever

I try to pray, at least, 2 to 3 times a day, every day. Every prayer is not necessarily the get-on-your-knees-in-the-privacy-of-your-closet kind of prayer, you know, but I may speak with God many times throughout an entire day. I won't drink or eat anything without thanksgiving first. I am almost always asking God to reveal the mysteries of His word to me, even if I am not getting ready to do some reading. I think about the Bible often during the day, speaking to God about His word, and trying to reason out what could be meant by certain verses, etc .... Things have occurred to me without having the Bible opened in front of me, you know? So, when I sit down to actually do some reading, I may not pray everytime just before. I probably should pray everytime, but in the past, I haven't.
Perhaps, I will start making it a point to do so.
 
Where will all These Lead to?

Well, it has all being said here about this and that...but the point remains "Where are we getting all this to?" What shall be our end result?... I may have different opinion on what "A" or "B" might have spoken but the truth we always speak for HIMSELF (not itself). There is one thing that still border me about this modern day Christianity and that, I tend not to see it happened in the Early Church..."Fight over doctrinal issues" (do they(early Church) really have doctrines?. Methodist has her doctrines different from Baptist's, so also Anglican against Four Square Gospel Church; The lists are many....)... This has cause Church to split up into Denominationalisms, sects, groups and even cults. But the question remain: is Christ therefore Divided? I read from a passage in the book of Ephesians 4v4-5; There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One God and father of all, Who is above all, and through all and in you all

So, if this is true in you and me then blessed be God. This is what I see in the Life of early Christian.. James complement what Peter says, so also Peter testified to the Teaching of Paul to be of the Lord even in a deeper way. John the beloved confirmed all that the other Apostles has spoken of, Jude confirmed those things spoken by Peter, Paul and James, John and the in-pendent Judgements. In fact all of them point to that ONE FAITH, ONE LORD, ONE BAPTISM, ONE HOPE; but I beg to differ that in all our knowledge in today's modern day Christianity, We don't preach one faith because we have many faiths on our tables, neither do we preach one baptism because many of us have alot of doctrines on that, while other believed in "Baptism in name of Jesus Christ", other explained that if its not done "in the name of the Father, Son, Holy-Spirit then it couldn't scriptural". Some even go further to say "Forget it, Baptism means nothing" and the other folks says "Just do it by sprinkling of Water or infant's baptism". Does these portraites "ONE BAPTISM"? Does this show that we have ONE FAITH and ONE LORD? I leave the answer to you.

Isn't what Paul says about our generation that is fulfilling in our days? In 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Timothy 4:3-4; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables..


Peter also testifying of these things in 2 Peter 2:1-22, here is verses 1-2.. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.


Jude went further and sealed it up in Jude 1:3. In his letter jude said "contend for the Faith that was once delivered to the Saint". Why? Because many faiths, teachings were welling up. (Jude 1-21)

Brothers and Sisters, Is not doctrines we need again, we've had enough of that; enough of Church spliting because of doctrines; enough of all these clouds without rain. We need some thing different from all that. Not even something, we need The Lord Himself to lead us into all Truth!!. Those early Apostles didn't preached up to what we are preaching today before the World was TURNED UP SIDE DOWN. But Lord, we have not wrought deliverance on earth, we've labour as a woman in pain but have only brought forth Winds. Please, Save us from ourselves.
 
Stickz,
Sometimes I wonder where folks got the idea that prayer was or should be limiting. (Not you, just speaking out loud in general.) I honestly believe that prayer is part of creating a unity with God through the Holy Spirit, part fellowship with the Most High. We have an eternity to get to know Him, I see praying as increasing the opportunities that I am purposely making a conscious effort to come before Him. Also, trying not to make it ritualistic creates problems also, since I also don't want it to become like I'm just going through the motions.

However, I am like you at times, and don't always pray prior to picking up Scripture
God bless brother.
C4E
 
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