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Pre Tribulation Rapture of the Church

Quote Originally Posted by Fenn View Post
Just to clarify:
Your stance is that if you have heard and not believed by the time of rapture there is no hope. If you have not heard and choose to believe you will be accepted, as long as you have not received the mark?

Yes that is correct.

I haven't looked into it that much as Revelation has always been a tough one for me. So, my questions may seem either stupid or sarcastic, but I am being sincere.

Do you think that everyone who has heard, and rejected, before the Rapture/Up to the Rapture will be put under the delusion and those who have not heard (third world countries) will have their chance?
Doesn't it seem like the two witnesses will be involved in more developed areas as well? I mean everyone in the US grows up knowing Christianity and either believes or rejects.
 
I haven't looked into it that much as Revelation has always been a tough one for me. So, my questions may seem either stupid or sarcastic, but I am being sincere.

Do you think that everyone who has heard, and rejected, before the Rapture/Up to the Rapture will be put under the delusion and those who have not heard (third world countries) will have their chance?
Doesn't it seem like the two witnesses will be involved in more developed areas as well? I mean everyone in the US grows up knowing Christianity and either believes or rejects.

Your questions help 100 people who are not asking them.

The two witnesses will probably be in Israel most of the time. There will be 144,000 Jews that God seals for a purpose. They will help reach the world. Many Arabs will turn to Jesus.

The last witness to the world will be by an angel. Every one will hear in their own language. Revelation 14:6-7

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6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 
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trib-u-la-tion

[trib-yuh-ley-shuh n] Show IPA
noun
1. grievous trouble; severe trial or suffering.
2. an instance of this; an affliction, trouble, etc.

Origin:
1175–1225; Middle English < Latin trībulātiōn- (stem of trībulātiō ) distress, trouble, equivalent to trībulāt ( us ) (past participle of trībulāre to press, squeeze, derivative of trībulum threshing sledge, equivalent to trī-, variant stem of terere to rub, crush + -bulum noun suffix of instrument) + -iōn- -ion

Synonyms
1. affliction, hardship, distress, adversity.
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If indeed Christians are not going to go through any tribulation at all, as Pre-Trib views state, then could someone kindly explain why Christians living in third-world countries are currently today going through "tribulation", by definition.
 
We all suffer tribulation on the earth . but it Not Our Fathers wrath .

The wrath of God is Not met for His own children or household . It met for a evil world who has refused His Free gift of salvation .

1Th_5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


Rom_1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Eph_5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Col_3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:


Luk_21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Rev_3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

We All have problems in life. But it not from our Father GOD .

Joh_15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

1Jn_3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.


He tells us not to bring our wrath on our kids . So why would He bring His wrath on us ?

Wrath is not LOVE .

It ok with me if we disagree . i do not get mad at people who disagree , like many do ?
 
How do you know? You do not know this at all.

Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of 1 heaven, m but My Father only.

No one knows that it is on our very doorstep, either. However, there are still many things that still must occur before we can begin to "look up".
 
No one knows that it is on our very doorstep, either. However, there are still many things that still must occur before we can begin to "look up".

I am not aware of anything that must occur. Could you give an example and a scripture please.
 
I think JESUS can call us up anytime now . Many do think lots of stuff must take place .
Some think . the gospel must be preached all over the world . But that already been done .

Some think a new temple must be built !

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I see this two ways ? We rule with Him 1000 years and who would we rule over even no one was left living after the great tribulation ?

also , all those who are born during the 1000 years of the LORD rule, some would become the elect for sure .

It about God gaining a family to share His Kingdom with Forever more .

That was His purpose for creating this planet . It not the only one , but to me it the main one .

I am sure there is much more our little minds cannot fully understand while in this flesh ?

but as for me ? I will keep expecting and looking up and praying I am worthy too go , whenever He calls ?

But I think it very close. They have weapons today that can kill millions and millions. and the deceived people who are willing to blow up them selves and there own mothers or wives or children without any thought of it .

Mat_12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Mat_15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:


Luk_6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Mat 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Mat 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.


Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

When we pray ? We should start off thank HIM for what He already done in our lives and we know He going to do much more .




Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh


Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


I think these without the oil were those who who not Born -Again ! The Oil meaning the Holy Ghost we get at salvation !
 
[h=3]John 13:34-35[/h]
So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other.Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.

Along with Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 24 and Luke 21, there is still a wait for all things mentioned to begin to occur at once, but the Body of Christ needs to also become unified in the Holy Spirit and the love that comes only from Him for each other. Right now there is a dearth of unity, except among those who are Spirit-filled and Spirit-led. The world does not see Christ in us by our love for one another....but it will. Holy Spirit will pour Himself on us as the days get darker and darker, before the Bridegroom comes to take us, the spotless Bride away to the Wedding.
 
The truth is ? The body of Christ is in perfect unity . We must understand ? the body of Christ is our spirit beings , that have have reborn and not our flesh minds or flesh bodies .

That why He says ? He will give us the desires of our heart [Spirit] They only want to please Him 100% .

The flesh mind is the battle field , it where all our problems are .
 
The truth is ? The body of Christ is in perfect unity . We must understand ? the body of Christ is our spirit beings , that have have reborn and not our flesh minds or flesh bodies .

That why He says ? He will give us the desires of our heart [Spirit] They only want to please Him 100% .

The flesh mind is the battle field , it where all our problems are .

Jesus says the WORLD will know us by our love for one another. It isn't happening...yet, because all the world sees is factions. We need a move of God, an outpouring of His Spirit on all flesh that will be a milestone that the Bridegroom is very near.
 
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Jesus says the WORLD will know us by our love for one another. It isn't happening...yet, because all the world sees is factions. We need a move of God, an outpouring of His Spirit on all flesh that will be a milestone that the Bridegroom is very near.
1 Timothy 4

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,(Catholic priest) which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

We are seeing the signs in Matthew 24:1-8 already.

The preaching of the gospel to every person in their own language will not happen till the angel preaches to the world in Revelation 14:6-7.

Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
 
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Amen, there will be strong lines of demarcation between the Body of Christ and the wicked.
 
Eldon..would you please explain what you mean by this..

its just one way God tests people.

can you tell the difference between a memory of a message brought back to your mind and a spirit speaking the same message to you?
its harder than you think.
 
The problem is not very many are truly Born -Again . And lots of them that are ? Are just going along with those who are in charge.
The true church are the Elect and they are the most powerful people on earth .

Many are not taught by the Holy Ghost . They are accepting the understanding of scriptures from people , most of who are not even Born _again ?

God wants us asking questions and being taught By His Holy Ghost .

We can reveal stuff to others , but the Holy Ghost must confirm it the correct understanding , before we accept it as truth .
Once we have accepted something as truth ? then it very hard for the Holy Ghost to get us to reject that and accept What He needs to teach us .

There been lots of stuff , I heard the pastors say when I was young in the LORD accepted as perfect truth . Only to find out it was not all truth .

With religions ? They believe certain things ? The pastors must accept these things as truth , in order to preach in that type Religion .

Even when they drop out and start there own church ? They still carry those things taught with them and teach them as if they were perfect truth .
A good example is tithing .

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Jn_2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


2Co_13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen

Listen I too was guilty once. Believing mankind and not understanding much.

I came home from church . And the LORD ask me ? Was I going to follow Him or the pastor . and He was not nice about it and it scared me so bad . I said ? YOU LORD . He said do it then .

Now I do my best to learn from Him and hear him and Follow only HIM.

Other have many times got upset with me for just saying this . But I going to follow only Him , even if it kills me one day ?
 
The problem is not very many are truly Born -Again . And lots of them that are ? Are just going along with those who are in charge.
The true church are the Elect and they are the most powerful people on earth .

Many are not taught by the Holy Ghost . They are accepting the understanding of scriptures from people , most of who are not even Born _again ?

God wants us asking questions and being taught By His Holy Ghost .

We can reveal stuff to others , but the Holy Ghost must confirm it the correct understanding , before we accept it as truth .
Once we have accepted something as truth ? then it very hard for the Holy Ghost to get us to reject that and accept What He needs to teach us .

There been lots of stuff , I heard the pastors say when I was young in the LORD accepted as perfect truth . Only to find out it was not all truth .

With religions ? They believe certain things ? The pastors must accept these things as truth , in order to preach in that type Religion .

Even when they drop out and start there own church ? They still carry those things taught with them and teach them as if they were perfect truth .
A good example is tithing .

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Jn_2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


2Co_13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen

Listen I too was guilty once. Believing mankind and not understanding much.

I came home from church . And the LORD ask me ? Was I going to follow Him or the pastor . and He was not nice about it and it scared me so bad . I said ? YOU LORD . He said do it then .

Now I do my best to learn from Him and hear him and Follow only HIM.

Other have many times got upset with me for just saying this . But I going to follow only Him , even if it kills me one day ?

If the bible and the voices don't agree, believe the bible!
 
The bible is put together perfectly . It like a big puzzle , where the pieces only fit perfectly one way .If one scripture appears to not agree with another ? Then we more than likely do not have the correct understanding .

Act_17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

We should do the same .
 
We are seeing the signs in Matthew 24:1-8 already.

We see sporadic signs from Matthew, but Jesus says when we see them ALL happening together, then we have the true signs of His coming.

Matthew 24:34 AMP
Truly I tell you, this generation (the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period) will not pass away till all these things taken together take place.



The preaching of the gospel to every person in their own language will not happen till the angel preaches to the world in Revelation 14:6-7.

Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

This occurs in the world after the exit of the Church.
 
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

They already did it . It does not have to be done again .
 
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

They already did it . It does not have to be done again .
It will be done.
Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
 
Rapture.... or left behind: is that the question?

Let us look at those Biblical passages most commonly used in support of the rapture theory, and that form the basis for the 'left behind' phenomenom.

As we study these scriptures we must realise that all of them are in the context of prophecy regarding the second coming of Jesus Christ. It is the second advent that climaxes all the above crisis' and is the focal point of all prophecy.

Matthew 24:37-41 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Now please note carefully what Jesus is saying here. First, the second coming will be affected in precisely the same way as the great flood. The unrighteous will not be aware of the signs of the times,
they shall be living at ease, living life as normal with little or no thought of eternity, when they shall be taken all away.
Let us go to the parallel passage in the gospel of Luke. You will note that Luke adds a little more detail giving a slightly different perspective.

Luke 17:26-37 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


The people that Matthew says are taken away, Luke adds that they are destroyed. Thus the 'taken away' aspect or context of what Jesus is telling His disciples equates to death or destruction. This is borne out later in Luke's passage when the disciples ask Him, "where are they taken to?" Jesus answer concerning the gathering of eagles around the carcasse echoes the following:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


I am beginning to think that being left behind isn't such a bad alternative. But we shall see. We will now look at another passage and see how consistent Jesus is regarding the subject.

Matthew 13:24-30 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

A little later Jesus explains the parable to His disciples.

Matthew 13:37-42 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


So let us recap the main points:

  • The second coming of Jesus Christ is in like manner as the great flood.
  • The wicked, who in Noah's day were living their normal everyday lives in ignorance and sin, were all taken away by the flood (Matthew 24:39) therefore so also will the wicked be at the second coming.
  • They are taken away to their ultimate death, or destruction. (Luke 17:27,29)
  • The concept of the wicked being taken is repeated many times. (Matt. 24:39-41; Luke 17:34-36)
  • The taking away or removal of the wicked to be destroyed comes before the gathering of the righteous.
  • Finally, note one very important aspect to all this. The above scriptures are often used by rapture theorists as evidence for there theory, yet every scripture is consistent, and in agreement with one another, the very opposite of the popular raprure theory.

Now, let me ask a question. In Noah's day, after the flood had removed the wicked from the face of the earth and destroyed them all, who was left behind?
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Who was it that was left behind when fire and brimstone fell from heaven and destroyed Sodom and the other cities of the plain? Was it not Lot and his two daughters?
The Left Behind series of books and movies are based on the premise that it would be a terrible thing to be left behind; that to be left behind was to be avoided at all costs. If we are to believe the words of Jesus however it would appear to me that to be left behind, alive and kicking, would be a far better alternative.

To those who believe that God would not pour out His wrath upon His people and therefore take them out of the way, I actually agree with you. But out of the way doesn't have to be right off the planet. God is well able to protect and provide for His children just as He has done for 6000 years in the midst of trouble. A remnant has always survived as a witness to the justice and righteousness of God's judgments. God's end time church will be that witness. It will be tough, yes. The cities are going to be a dangerous place to live. I now recommend a move to the country for every child of God. A place where you can grow some food, and stay away from the coming riots, crime, and violence that will rock this planet. God looked after Israel in the land of Goshen...he can look after you wherever you decide to retire before the coming crisis.
 
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