Pre Tribulation Rapture of the Church

Ophel · Jun 15, 2013

The question is, in Noah's day, who were saved? The righteous! Just as in Noah's day, the wicked are left behind to suffer God's form of judgment on them. In the Rapture, the righteous are saved from the 'flood' of judgments of the time of Jacob's Trouble.

eldon · Jun 15, 2013

brakelite, i have come to precisely the same conclusion you have.

hardly an hour before i check my email and reply to this thread, i'm reading the Word and the Lord (who has many non verbal ways of speaking to me, points out that passage in Matthew and i read it again)
light bulb goes on right?

so what i read from the passage the second time is that Matthew States Very Clearly "So shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

Keyword: Then.
i think this is where my friend found support for the "Rapture" being at the second coming.

so i show the passage to my mom, and from the word just beforehand, comparing it to the Days of Noah (those who are taken are destroyed!)
and that is exactly the first thing that comes to her mind, a moment later i'm thinking about this and something says to me "confound the wise"

uh houston we have a problem.
what does the word taken mean?

now we know that upon death the soul/spirit goes to judgement.
and Christ may have told me he will judge me at his return.

so what if the rapture is just the unrighteous being struck dead at His return?
would that not make more sense?

brakelite · Jun 15, 2013

There is more Eldon, please note carefully the following....

Matt. 13:24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: ......

Okay, so here we are directed by the Lord to the end of the world, the final harvest of all that has been sown, both good and evil. This occurs at the second coming, and not before. Note the order that Jesus informs us of the harvest....

....and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, ....

what are gathered first? The tares or the wheat? The tares. Yet the rapture theory would have us believe that the wheat is gathered first even before the time of harvest has come. Yet Jesus explicitly commanded that this should not take place. Why? Because as any farmer would tell you, until the fruit is ripened, it is difficult to tell the good plants from the bad. God is awaiting the time of the coming end of world crisis to ripen the fruit. It is under duress that our true characters will be revealed. Then, and only then, will the vines be gathered up. Those that bear fruit after the gathering of those tares that bare no fruit.

.......and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

At the second coming the wicked are destroyed to be raised again at the end of the millennium to be sentenced....the righteous are left behind and then as per Paul's word to the Thessalonians nd to the Corinthians, are changed, in the twinkling of an eye, and are taken to heaven with their Saviour.

1 Thess. 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Note: Who is Paul speaking of here? Is it not those who have died in Christ and are in their graves? Is Paul not explaining here the order of the promised resurrection? Yes. He is encouraging the Christians of his day not to sorrow for those who have died for the promise is that they will surely be resurrected. When? At the second coming, which by the way they all expected very soon. Here is the true rapture.Note that there is nothing secret about this, it is open, noisy, and as we have learned elsewhere, it comes immediately after the destruction of the wicked.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Here Paul is speaking of the very same event. Note that the righteous are not in heaven but still in their graves waiting to be awoken by the call of their Saviour.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Many believe that we go to heaven the moment we die. That they are already immortal and enjoying their reward. Yet is not Paul here saying clearly that they are in fact waiting their resurrection, they have not yet received immortality, and they do so at the second coming along with those who remain alive? Is not Paul here saying that all the saints from all ages go to heaven together?Notice that 1 Corinthians 15 says the same thing. Paul is encouraging the Corinthians that there will indeed be a resurrection . He is saying if Christ rose, then it is guaranteed that we will rise also. Notice in verse 23 when this takes place. 12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

So here is a summary of the events we have been discussing and their timing...

Final tribulation and the outpouring of God's wrath in the form of the last plagues.
Jesus returns with all His holy angels and the wicked who have managed to survive the plagues are destroyed by the brightnes of His coming along with the false prophet and the beast.
The righteous dead are raised from their graves to immortality, then those righteous who being the remnant are changed, and caught up together with them to be forever with the Lord.

spirit1st · Jun 15, 2013

This is one of the main scriptures to me that reveals the rapture .

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Those that are asleep in JESUS are with Him now. Of course they rise first . Then us that are alive here go up to meet them in the ait and go home til our Fathers wrath is finished . Then we return here with Him to rule the earth for the 1000 years of peace .

1Co_15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Php_1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Our brothers and sisters who left there flesh bodies are with HIM NOW.

I left my flesh before . We are with HIm so quickly we do not have time to think even one thought . We travel millions maybe billions of miles in less than a second . We are all out of place right now.

Our home is New Jerusalem . The place He went to prepare for us .
The Bible tells us it our mother .

Gal_4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
I guess the earth is our flesh mother and New Jerusalem is now our Spiritual mother .

Not sure if we are made like it or of it ?

A mother imply s

we came out of it ?

Maybe someone has a better understanding of this ?

eldon · Jun 15, 2013

what if there is two "Raptures"

saints who are taken, then possibly return with Christ (say 3.5 years later) (but if they have new bodies, then they can't marry and be given in marriage, right?)
and the unrighteous who are destroyed (allegedly) at the Lord's return.

the redeemed sons of God who live through the tribulation (the 144K) may get upgraded bodies at His Return?
some say we will again live to be hundreds of years old in our new upgraded bodies? (but we still have to die to leave them?)

Ophel · Jun 15, 2013

eldon said:
what if there is two "Raptures"

saints who are taken, then possibly return with Christ (say 3.5 years later) (but if they have new bodies, then they can't marry and be given in marriage, right?)
and the unrighteous who are destroyed (allegedly) at the Lord's return.

the redeemed sons of God who live through the tribulation (the 144K) may get upgraded bodies at His Return?
some say we will again live to be hundreds of years old in our new upgraded bodies? (but we still have to die to leave them?)

Whatever the deal, when we receive our new bodies we live FOREVER, not just a few hundred years!

spirit1st · Jun 15, 2013

God has new bodies awaiting us . When we come back we will not be marrying or having sex . We will not even have those desires .

Our houses in heaven are our new bodies that house our Spirit !

clothed upon is Him giving us our new body
2Co_5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon

in this tabernacle is our body .

Here is Paul revealing He going to leave His flesh body .

2Pe_1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

eldon · Jun 16, 2013

spirit1st said:
God has new bodies awaiting us . When we come back we will not be marrying or having sex . We will not even have those desires .

exactly, so all the confusion is over who's left alive on the planet to repopulate the earth, and on into the next age after the 1000 years.

Eric E Stahl · Jun 16, 2013

eldon said:
exactly, so all the confusion is over who's left alive on the planet to repopulate the earth, and on into the next age after the 1000 years.

Ophel · Jun 16, 2013

spirit1st said:
God has new bodies awaiting us . When we come back we will not be marrying or having sex . We will not even have those desires .

Our houses in heaven are our new bodies that house our Spirit !

clothed upon is Him giving us our new body
2Co_5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon

in this tabernacle is our body .

Here is Paul revealing He going to leave His flesh body .

2Pe_1:14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

Yes, we will receive a new resurrected body, and we will have great mansions in heaven to live in...literally.

John 14:1-4
Do not let your hearts be troubled (distressed, agitated). You believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely on God; believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely also on Me. 2 In My Father’s house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.
3 And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.
4 And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.

What Paul was talking about was that his physical body will give way to a spiritual one. That is not the resurrected body we will all receive at the rapture of the saints.

spirit1st · Jun 16, 2013

Everyone on earth does not die. There will be lots of people left after the great tribulation . Lots of people will repent and accept JESUS CHRIST as LORD.

No one will be left who served the devils . The demons and satan will be bound 1000 years . the anti-christ guy and his dumb prophet will be put in the lake of fire .
The earth will be restored to as it was in the beginning. life here will be wonderful for the 1000 years under JESUS .

There will be nothing here at that time that hurts mankind in any way .
All the ground animals will eat grass . None will hurt people .

LOOKING forward to that day . I hate the evil of this world .

Ophel · Jun 16, 2013

spirit1st said:
Everyone on earth does not die. There will be lots of people left after the great tribulation . Lots of people will repent and accept JESUS CHRIST as LORD.

No one will be left who served the devils . The demons and satan will be bound 1000 years . the anti-christ guy and his dumb prophet will be put in the lake of fire .
The earth will be restored to as it was in the beginning. life here will be wonderful for the 1000 years under JESUS .

There will be nothing here at that time that hurts mankind in any way .
All the ground animals will eat grass . None will hurt people .

LOOKING forward to that day . I hate the evil of this world .

Some of the mortal survivors of Tribulation will die, but they will live to a great age. Satan is chained for that 1000 years to be released at the end of that period and will deceive many, so many will end up being judged and condemned. Not all will be of Christ in the end.

spirit1st · Jun 16, 2013

I know satan bound for the 1000 years . But not sure where ?

And it always amazed me after the 1000 years of peace. Many again are listening to satan and try again to destroy our LORD JESUS .

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This just shows satan or any other evil thing CANNOT enter the New Jerusalem now or ever could .

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
That is our Home Right now .

Joh_17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Soon as we dump these bodies we are there . It so quick.

Eric E Stahl · Jun 22, 2013

spirit1st said:
I know satan bound for the 1000 years . But not sure where ?

And it always amazed me after the 1000 years of peace. Many again are listening to satan and try again to destroy our LORD JESUS .

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This just shows satan or any other evil thing CANNOT enter the New Jerusalem now or ever could .

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
That is our Home Right now .

Joh_17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Soon as we dump these bodies we are there . It so quick.

Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Gravity is the effect of mass attracting mass. The mass of the earth attracts us so we do not float into space. I have always thought that the bottemless pit is in the center of the earth where equal mass is on all sides so there is no effect by gravity. A person would feal weightless as though falling.

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