Proof Of Creation

[strawberry]

But why is it God's prerogative to use his creation in such a way? Assuming God exists and created everything, why does this make it OK for God to treat his creation in such a disgusting and harmful manner? This is a moral question, and to answer it you must concede that you are able to reason right from wrong and make moral proclamations from a standard of values and goals (hopefully you'll elucidate us as to what those are).

Furthermore, by what standard do you conclude that God is trustworthy and good? You see, these are all moral proclamations you are making, in some sense of the word.

Respectfully,

Traverse

God can do whatever he wants.

:bot:

 

[David777]

In reply Mr Travese.

The Bible says God is beyond our ability to reason or understand.

Therefore, it is impossible to evaluate this God on the basis of human reason.

There is no standard of morality suitable, hence an exercise in futility.

According to the text,

God creates the Universe.

God creates beautiful species.

God creates mankind.

Mankind is disobedient.

God seperates Himself from mankind.

Mankind controls and kills all, including other species.

God becomes a man.

Pays us a visit, talks and heals mankind.

Mankind then murders God.

God uses His own execution to reconcile Himself to mankind.

Mankind again rejects God and the reconciliation.

God returns to collect those foolish enough to agree with Him.

God destroys the Universe.

Your opinion on God's behavor Mr Traverse, like my opinion is a waste of time.

Man is immoral, human history declares this.

I hope God returns before mankind destroys the planet.

 

[Mr. Traverse]

God can do whatever he wants.

:bot:

Does might make right? Just because God is capable of doing whatever, doesn't necessitate that whatever God does is always morally good, does it?

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[Mr. Traverse]

The Bible says God is beyond our ability to reason or understand.

Therefore, it is impossible to evaluate this God on the basis of human reason.

There is no standard of morality suitable, hence an exercise in futility.

According to the text,

God creates the Universe.

God creates beautiful species.

God creates mankind.

Mankind is disobedient.

God seperates Himself from mankind.

Mankind controls and kills all, including other species.

God becomes a man.

Pays us a visit, talks and heals mankind.

Mankind then murders God.

God uses His own execution to reconcile Himself to mankind.

Mankind again rejects God and the reconciliation.

God returns to collect those foolish enough to agree with Him.

God destroys the Universe.

Your opinion on God's behavor Mr Traverse, like my opinion is a waste of time.

Man is immoral, human history declares this.

I hope God returns before mankind destroys the planet.

Basically, you're admitting to believing in something that you have no good reason to believe. How can you even talk about God if you can't understand God?

However, you can still make moral proclamations regarding the actions that you believe God has committed. I misspoke earlier when I said you can't justify any moral conclusion made about God if God is not knowable. You can, but so long as you aren't under the belief that you are communicating God's moral standard (becuase god is not knowable). You can still conclude whether or not the actinos of this God are moral according to YOU. You just probably can't entirely understand why or how God committed them, or whether or not they align with God's standard of morality or what that standard even is.

So the questions remain. Are slavery and genocide ever morally good actions? If so, when and for what reason? Again, if we can't understand God, then we probably can't understand why or how some actions were committed. But if you take the Bible seriously, then you would concede that actions like slavery and genocide were committed, commanded and/or condoned by this God. We may not be able to understand for what purpose these actions were committed or condoned or commanded, but we can still come to moral conclusions based upon our own moral standards. The only way I can possibly think of anyone concluding that God was morally good for these actions is if you hold the position that the ends justify the means, and then assume that more good came out of these actions than bad.

Also, what allows you to conclude that this God is trustworthy and good? If you can't understand this God, on what basis can this be concluded?

Honestly, an unknowable God is the best argument against belief.

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[David777]

Hello Mr Traverse.

Nice to hear from you.

You stated,

Does might make right? Just because God is capable of doing whatever,
doesn't necessitate that whatever God does is always morally good, does it?

This is a subjective thought construction Mr Traverse.

Does God conform to your subjective appraisal?

Mr Traverse, you and I are not in a position to cast opinion on this matter.
I ask you again, what is the standard you are using?

 

[Mr. Traverse]

David,

We certainly are in a position to make moral valuations, because they are subjective and personal proclamations based upon subjective and personal values and goals. That's what morality is, right? Or do you think good and bad are physical properties of the universe that are measurable?

I value life and health for myself. I don't want someone else to violate my life or health, and thus extend the same respect to others. On grand scale I value the life and health of society and humanity as a whole. My understanding of what actions violate these values or hinder goals to strengthening these values is evidence informed.

From this construct I can conclude that the actions of this God, should this God actually exist and these actions of slavery and genocide actually committed, were harmful both to the health and the life of individuals and societies as a whole. Therefore, it was immoral.

Respectfully,

Traverse

 

[ItinerantLurker]

God can do whatever he wants.

:bot:

Does that make whatever god does moral in your view?




Lurker

 

[BCRE8TVE]

God can do whatever he wants.

:bot:

It always confuses me when people say this.

Either God does whatever he wants according to His Will and His Plan for all of Creation. In which case you can pray all you want, if it's not part of His Plan it will never happen. On the other hand, if it IS part of His Plan, what's the point in praying, it will happen anyways.

If God doesn't have a Master Plan to stick to, and just goes about existence on a day-to-day basis, doing pretty much what he wants, what tells you he will listen to one puny unworthy sinner of a human out of 7 billion and let that human dictate to God what He will do?

And if God really is as good as they say He is, why isn't he intervening in everyday situations where people are suffering and starving and drowning and dying?


I have yet to understand an explanation that can reconcile all of the above in a way that makes sense.

 

[Brother Mike]

God can do whatever he wants.

:bot:

Certainly asking for Scripture that supports her view will suffice, in accordance to forum rules. If the statement be true or false, many Christians believe this regardless.

And if God really is as good as they say He is, why isn't he intervening in everyday situations where people are suffering and starving and drowning and dying?

If God did intervene then we have a post about God the dictator, who has taken mans freedom from being evil.

Read this!
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Psa 34:12 What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good?
Psa 34:13 Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

Psa 34:7 The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Those that do not wish to acknowledge their creator, do not have faith in God's protection, would it be right of God to violate what they want to believe, God going against what he said, one being that all things are possible to them that believe, also saying without faith it's impossible to please God.

Without God you have no hope in this world, Now why would God violate someones belief, and save them anyway? He already mentioned in many places how to be protected, if you ignore that, you do so at your cost.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[David777]

Mr Traverse you stated,

"We certainly are in a position to make moral valuations, because they are subjective and personal proclamations based upon subjective and personal values and goals. That's what morality is, right? Or do you think good and bad are physical properties of the universe that are measurable?"

A moral code is a system of morality (for example, according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code.

You claim that you are in a position to evaluate God from a moral position.

From the definition above it would appear to be a subjective opinion.
This opinion would be erroneous unless it was using the Revelation
as the guide. All human opinion is void, the Revelation determines all.

The Revelation itself determines what is "good and bad".

I have no inbuilt ability to determine what is good and bad.

Outside of Revelation, morality has ghost like properties.
I like all humans are taught from a young age some amalgamation of morality. Here is a list of some morals in modern society:

Laws are made to be broken of course.
Break the law but do not get caught.
I can only be as honest as I can afford to be.
Taxation is what I can avoid if possible paying.
Vengeance is mine, anyone who crosses me, i will get even.
I have to speed, i am running late.
Don't do as I do, do as I say, parents use this one.
It is ok if i break the rules, don't let me catch you breaking the rules.
In fact, we apply our morality to evaluate other people, but we do not apply it to ourselves.
We elect politicians that we know will lie to us, when they lie and we catch them out. We get upset, what choice do we have?
We are hippocrites Mr traverse, we are faulty at best in our understanding of morality. Let alone the application of morality.
I once asked the guys at work what love was. No one was able to answer the question. They had no idea what it was!

Inside of Revelation, there is legal representation for those who do not claim to be good. Those who submit to the revelation are reconciled.
Those who do not submit, will be forced to submit later on.

Once again, your manifestation of morality is useless and void.

You can claim to have a morality, but I must insist on what the source is.
Unless you name the source, I find it difficult to understand what you mean.

According to Revelation you were given life by God as a gift.

If you value your own life, I would submit to the Revelation.

See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)

 

[strawberry]

Certainly asking for Scripture that supports her view will suffice, in accordance to forum rules. If the statement be true or false, many Christians believe this regardless.

I don't understand. Was that directed at me? If so, I have to qualify every interaction with scripture? It's not a problem, just a little embarrassing.

My comment was a little light-hearted stating of the obvious for grins to see specifically what the curious members came back with; it helps me better understand tone, and what specifically they still want to know.

And I was so excited to be back after a long break away; I couldn't contain the desire to generate a few smiles. *cry*

 

[David777]

Yeah Mike.

Strawberry only just arrived back to TJ.

Methinks you may be a bit to harsh at times.

 

[jiggyfly]

It always confuses me when people say this.

Either God does whatever he wants according to His Will and His Plan for all of Creation. In which case you can pray all you want, if it's not part of His Plan it will never happen. On the other hand, if it IS part of His Plan, what's the point in praying, it will happen anyways.

If God doesn't have a Master Plan to stick to, and just goes about existence on a day-to-day basis, doing pretty much what he wants, what tells you he will listen to one puny unworthy sinner of a human out of 7 billion and let that human dictate to God what He will do?

And if God really is as good as they say He is, why isn't he intervening in everyday situations where people are suffering and starving and drowning and dying?


I have yet to understand an explanation that can reconcile all of the above in a way that makes sense.

To answer some of your questions, yes God does have a plan, a very genius plan, and yes all His work is towards the accomplishment of His plan. But many seem to think that His plan is working everything out in this life/age, but this is just one stage of His plan. But until you meet Christ any proper explanation of God's glorious plan will not make any sense to you and seem very foolish because the natural mind is very limited. Obviously your not ready for this because your not even seeking Christ, but rather trying to disprove His existence.

I don't mean to offend you but given your stance and your mindset any words used to try and explain this plan to you would just be a waste.
Seek Jesus the Christ and He will reveal Himself and many truths to you.

 

[Fraction]

It always confuses me when people say this.

Either God does whatever he wants according to His Will and His Plan for all of Creation. In which case you can pray all you want, if it's not part of His Plan it will never happen. On the other hand, if it IS part of His Plan, what's the point in praying, it will happen anyways.

If God doesn't have a Master Plan to stick to, and just goes about existence on a day-to-day basis, doing pretty much what he wants, what tells you he will listen to one puny unworthy sinner of a human out of 7 billion and let that human dictate to God what He will do?

And if God really is as good as they say He is, why isn't he intervening in everyday situations where people are suffering and starving and drowning and dying?


I have yet to understand an explanation that can reconcile all of the above in a way that makes sense.

These questions do bring about confusion in believers and non-believers. So even as an atheist, you're not alone in this confusion.

I'd like to talk about God's plan first. There are two different types of plans when I sit down and think about this topic in detail. We have individual plans, which are God's plans for all humans individually. We also have the bigger picture plan, which is the plan for humanity as a whole. So what is the difference?

Individual Plans

When it comes to individual plans for people, I believe that these plans do not violate our freedom of choice (free will). God doesn't FORCE us to do things. However he does influence us enough to push us into a decision, that might or might not have to be answered. Whether we say yes or no, do or do not, is still our decision. These are the things that I believe that God does in the plan for individual humans. He influences, nudges, pushes, pulls, etc. He doesn't force our hands.

Bigger Picture

A lot of research into the Bible reveals the act of creation, salvation, and destruction. These are part of the bigger picture, and involves the entire human population. If we search throughout the Old Testament, we find things of cause and effect. Humanity did this, and God reacted in punishment or reward. Later in the Old Testament and throughout the New Testament, predictions called prophecies are made. These are also cause and effect. When humanity makes a move, God makes a move, and later between God and Satan directly in revelation.

Take notice to the history of humanity. History repeats itself over and over again constantly. It is most noticed from war, rise and fall of empires and civilizations, and other things of that magnitude. The mistake that a lot of people make (even Christians) is that it is God's doing, plan, or fault. When in reality these people are afraid to understand that humanity destroys itself. It is not God or Satan that starts wars of mindless blood shed and supreme conquest, it is man. God only retaliates in our place, because sometimes (including in the end) he will be the only one who can do anything at all.

That is what God's plan means to me. It's not a strict agenda everyone follows like zombies. I actually hope you can understand my view on that, and it wasn't too confusing. Feel free to ask any more questions about it.

I understand your wondering when you asked "Why doesn't God intervene on suffering?". All scripture in the bible that could possibly answer a question like this refers directly to faith, and being healed by God. As we can clearly see though, even those with faith fall prey to death from diseases or another type of suffering and pain. In my personal opinion, I don't think that anyone can answer this question with complete knowledge and understanding. Sadly, I also have no real input or opinion on this subject, but only because of the lack of understanding not because I don't care.

 

[Brother Mike]

Rule 7:

strawberry

I don't understand. Was that directed at me? If so, I have to qualify every interaction with scripture? It's not a problem, just a little embarrassing.

My comment was a little light-hearted stating of the obvious for grins to see specifically what the curious members came back with; it helps me better understand tone, and what specifically they still want to know.

And I was so excited to be back after a long break away; I couldn't contain the desire to generate a few smiles. *cry*

We are certainly joyed to have you back Strawberry.

My post was not directed at you, this thread though is being moderated for a specific reasons.

AND

Your comment was not obvious to me that God does whatever he wants, and in this specific thread generated a lot of questioning by the lost, and evil accusing of God. I found nothing Light-Hearted about it. Myself, and other found need to clarify God doing whatever he wants, after reading the ideas of those that need Jesus.

One such comment:
BCRE8TVE

And if God really is as good as they say He is, why isn't he intervening in everyday situations where people are suffering and starving and drowning and dying?

David777

Yeah Mike.
<hr style="color: rgb(226, 225, 234); background-color: rgb(226, 225, 234);" size="1"> Strawberry only just arrived back to TJ.

Methinks you may be a bit to harsh at times.

My hope is that we as Christians become stronger in our perception of situations, discerning motive and what spirit is at work. Knowing what words need to be spoken in due season.

 

[Kit Carson]

There is a lot spoken in this thread about how God is immoral. A lot of fluff and words, but I see no direct specific accusations, just a general non understanding of God.

I am most likely the worlds worst at providing scripture, I do occasionally, but I tend to view the Bible as a whole. One part relates to another part and I get the truth out of the whole.

So to me with Gods grace and allowance I understand all he has done and does do....most of it. I consider God very moral, and do realize many things of violence and death are not well understood. But to me I can see the reasons and explanations and lessons in the Bible. It is us, man who cause the results.

God tells us if we would turn from evil he would heal our lands and heal all things, and I fully believe in my heart that if the world would simply accept God and believe in him as he wishes, he would never find cause to destroy the earth again. But as he knows this will never happen and looks ahead, he has so told us what is to come......one day.

So what is the morality issues some do not understand, be specific, take a particular situation, and lets kick it around. I have found there is full understanding in the context of the Bible, if one only seeks to understand it.

So pick one.....lets see what caused the resulting actions. And the reasons why. I can tell you ahead of time, that sin and our own way cause them all.

I can also say if you do not wish to understand and wish to only punish God, you will never understand. And there is a human thought I like too. It says do not wrestle with a Pig in the Mud as soon you find the Pig enjoys the mud. So true for those who wish to conquer God. Well you will never conquer God. But he will in his grace and mercy try and try and try to cause you to understand.

Kit

 

[Brother Mike]

God, or is it man?

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

The Problem is those that make these uninformed statements do not care enough to take the time to look at What God actually said. God said Choose life, and you and your Children will live.

So, it's not God's doing, God even gave the correct answer to choose. If you wish to ignore God, then it's not God's fault.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[philosopher]

Personally, I believe that the atheist has more faith to believe that the world happened to evolve in such a perfect manner, to be able to support life on this obscure little planet. Scientists will agree that the constants of physics are so precise, that if they were slightly different, it wouldn't be able to support life.

 

[BCRE8TVE]

Personally, I believe that the atheist has more faith to believe that the world happened to evolve in such a perfect manner, to be able to support life on this obscure little planet. Scientists will agree that the constants of physics are so precise, that if they were slightly different, it wouldn't be able to support life.

A quick correction. Faith is what is needed to believe a statement to be true in the absence of evidence, as is the case with many miracles of Jesus, etc.

By that definition, a person who trusts science needs no faith. The big bang theory describes how the universe developed and tells us how our solar system was formed. The field of geology tells us how the planet changed after it was formed. Evolution tells us how life changed on the planet over billion of years. None of this requires faith, because it is all valid science supported by evidence.

I know it may sound surprising to some, but I and many others like me, do not need faith in our lives. I do not have faith that God doesn't exist, I don't have the faith needed to assume he does exist. It doesn't take me any more effort to not believe in God that it would take you effort to not believe in Bigfoot.

 

[Mr. Traverse]

Mr Traverse you stated,

"We certainly are in a position to make moral valuations, because they are subjective and personal proclamations based upon subjective and personal values and goals. That's what morality is, right? Or do you think good and bad are physical properties of the universe that are measurable?"

A moral code is a system of morality (for example, according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code.

You claim that you are in a position to evaluate God from a moral position.

From the definition above it would appear to be a subjective opinion.
This opinion would be erroneous unless it was using the Revelation
as the guide. All human opinion is void, the Revelation determines all.

The Revelation itself determines what is "good and bad".

I have no inbuilt ability to determine what is good and bad.

So you can’t know whether something is good or bad. You can’t even know whether God is good or bad, which means you can’t truly believe any supposed moral revelation from this God because you don’t have any ability to reason whether it is good or bad. Even though I think it is likely that you are mistaken, I suppose I’ll just take your word for it.

Outside of Revelation, morality has ghost like properties.
I like all humans are taught from a young age some amalgamation of morality. Here is a list of some morals in modern society:

Laws are made to be broken of course.
Break the law but do not get caught.
I can only be as honest as I can afford to be.
Taxation is what I can avoid if possible paying.
Vengeance is mine, anyone who crosses me, i will get even.
I have to speed, i am running late.
Don't do as I do, do as I say, parents use this one.
It is ok if i break the rules, don't let me catch you breaking the rules.
In fact, we apply our morality to evaluate other people, but we do not apply it to ourselves.

These are very broad generalizations…

We elect politicians that we know will lie to us, when they lie and we catch them out. We get upset, what choice do we have?
We are hippocrites Mr traverse, we are faulty at best in our understanding of morality. Let alone the application of morality.
I once asked the guys at work what love was. No one was able to answer the question. They had no idea what it was!

Yes, we’re faulty. So you throw your hands up and give up? I like to attempt to figure out where I’m wrong and change my position accordingly.

Once again, your manifestation of morality is useless and void.

It isn’t useless and void to me, and likely those who surround me, because it informs my actions and how I behave.

You can claim to have a morality, but I must insist on what the source is.
Unless you name the source, I find it difficult to understand what you mean.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. The source of ones morality is likely always the individual making the moral proclamation. Morality is inherently subjective, regardless of whether it comes from you, me, or any of the god’s that billions of people believe in.

According to Revelation you were given life by God as a gift.

As of yet, this revelation has not been substantiated.

If you value your own life, I would submit to the Revelation.

Why don’t you submit to the revelations of other religions? How can you possibly tell them apart if, as you say, they are beyond science and evidence? You’re essentially admitting that these revelations aren’t based in reality.

See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded, and it is I who heal; And there is no one who can deliver from My hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39)

"Do you know the one 'All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to steer her by...'? You could feel the wind at your back, about you...the sounds of the sea beneath you. And even if you take away the wind and the water, it's still the same. The ship is yours...you can feel her...and the stars are still there." -- Kirk, The Ultimate Computer, Ep 53/4729.4

See? I can quote fiction, too.

Respectfully,

Traverse