ItinerantLurker
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Proof Of Creation
- Thread starter Chad
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Kit Carson
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So I will play one more time, you wish to bring forward slavery now. Ok.
Exodus 21:16 Read that one and think. God is saying if you kidnap or take by force a man or woman..you see most of the Bible speaks of men and leaves out woman but it is the same, that if you do so by force or against their will then that man shall be put to death.
You see God did not command slavery even in those days, as he does not today. But he did allow the tradition and culture of the people to carry on. In those days many became servants by choice, or because they were poor and yes a parent would sell the child into slavery, or should I say into the way of becoming a servant.
It was a different time, a tradition and culture, but much of it was with the willingness of the people and it was a way of life. The master also provided for the servants and after a time they were given the choice to become free. If they so chose to become free. Some had good jobs and a secure life and so wished to stay.
Tradition and culture allowed by God is not always the command of God.
There are very understandable reasons for all these things that took place in those times. Yes man in his tradition has sometimes done some things that are not exactly right. But God has never told anyone to go capture anyone against their will ..........for the purpose of slavery only and as shown one who does it to be put to death. God also set laws for mistreatment, such as Exodus 21:20-27. Remember there were no jails, no prison and justice was dispensed within the camp and the camp was many times mobile to follow the livestock. Their world was not as our world is today.
Other things in war and in tradition were allowed, but also to be done with compassion and common sense.
You will find that with understanding that God is kind, very fair, and more understanding than can be imagined, but that he also has a purpose sometimes and yes he does demand obedience , but he does allow a culture to thrive and flourish, if they so simply believe upon him.
Something I might add, and you will not find it in the Bible, it is something one learns from study of the Bible and Gods word. God meets man more than halfway in his cultures and traditions. He demands that we follow his moral ways, and most of all to honor and worship him. But in the ways of men, other than his ways, he does meet us more than halfway. Look at our world today and how we are with our ways and manners, by his grace and for those who do believe upon him he holds his hand. For now. If he was to act upon his morality and Holiness the world would be an instant BBQ brick. But he does meet us in our ways, still gently with his sacrifice of his son, trying to get man to understand. And providing a means of Salvation from our ways.
Not that this has anything to do with anything, but if you are reading sites such as the Evil Bible or similar all those things are turned backwards and have no truth in them. They are from those who wish to conquer God for whatever reason. Beware of them, and pick up the Bible go to a quiet place and listen to it. Do so with the intent to learn and it will teach.
Take Care
Kit
Exodus 21:16 Read that one and think. God is saying if you kidnap or take by force a man or woman..you see most of the Bible speaks of men and leaves out woman but it is the same, that if you do so by force or against their will then that man shall be put to death.
You see God did not command slavery even in those days, as he does not today. But he did allow the tradition and culture of the people to carry on. In those days many became servants by choice, or because they were poor and yes a parent would sell the child into slavery, or should I say into the way of becoming a servant.
It was a different time, a tradition and culture, but much of it was with the willingness of the people and it was a way of life. The master also provided for the servants and after a time they were given the choice to become free. If they so chose to become free. Some had good jobs and a secure life and so wished to stay.
Tradition and culture allowed by God is not always the command of God.
There are very understandable reasons for all these things that took place in those times. Yes man in his tradition has sometimes done some things that are not exactly right. But God has never told anyone to go capture anyone against their will ..........for the purpose of slavery only and as shown one who does it to be put to death. God also set laws for mistreatment, such as Exodus 21:20-27. Remember there were no jails, no prison and justice was dispensed within the camp and the camp was many times mobile to follow the livestock. Their world was not as our world is today.
Other things in war and in tradition were allowed, but also to be done with compassion and common sense.
You will find that with understanding that God is kind, very fair, and more understanding than can be imagined, but that he also has a purpose sometimes and yes he does demand obedience , but he does allow a culture to thrive and flourish, if they so simply believe upon him.
Something I might add, and you will not find it in the Bible, it is something one learns from study of the Bible and Gods word. God meets man more than halfway in his cultures and traditions. He demands that we follow his moral ways, and most of all to honor and worship him. But in the ways of men, other than his ways, he does meet us more than halfway. Look at our world today and how we are with our ways and manners, by his grace and for those who do believe upon him he holds his hand. For now. If he was to act upon his morality and Holiness the world would be an instant BBQ brick. But he does meet us in our ways, still gently with his sacrifice of his son, trying to get man to understand. And providing a means of Salvation from our ways.
Not that this has anything to do with anything, but if you are reading sites such as the Evil Bible or similar all those things are turned backwards and have no truth in them. They are from those who wish to conquer God for whatever reason. Beware of them, and pick up the Bible go to a quiet place and listen to it. Do so with the intent to learn and it will teach.
Take Care
Kit
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ItinerantLurker
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And the preceding verses makes it pretty clear that this is talking about Hebrew slaves, not non-Hebrew slaves seeing as chapter 21 begins by saying:
"When you buy a Hebrew slave. . ."
The bible seems pretty clear that Hebrews can kidnap non-Hebrews and force them into perpetual slavery during war.
10 “When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall [a]offer it terms of peace. 11 If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. 12 However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the [c]men in it with the edge of the sword. 14 Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall [d]use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you. 15 Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not of the cities of these nations [e]nearby. 16 Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes.
- Deuteronomy 20:10-16Also, note that not only is the taking of slaves being commanded here - so is the murder of women and children.
Again, this contradicts what the text explicitly says.
True, debt slavery was a form of slavery during this time, but it is simply naive to act as though this was the only form of slavery allowed for and practiced. If you were not a Hebrew, male, debt slave your lot was quite a bit poorer.
Again, if you were a male, Hebrew, debt slave then yes. If you were not Hebrew, not male, or not an adult then the bible allows for you and your children to be treated as property in perpetuity.
Ah, so God allows for morally reprehensible institutions to continue. . .except for where he explicitly commands people to take slaves and/or murder women and children (and oxen, just for good measure).
What is the very understandable reason for allowing:
- Women to be treated as property?
- Children to be sold into slavery to cover their father's debts?
- Women to be forced to marry (raped by) soldiers?
- People to be treated as property?
- The enslavement of the children of slaves?
- The murder of women and children who simply happen to live in a city nearby?
So far the only reason you've provided is to simply ignore what the bible explicitly says concerning these topics.
Unless they happened to be non-Hebrews you mean?
Which are essentially the same as other ANE codes of law concerning the treatment of slaves. I see no reason to think those other laws were divinely inspired, do you?
Ah, so morality is based upon the culture of the time?
There is no mention of "compassion" or "common sense" in the verses cited above. I think you are again inserting what you want the text to say into what the text actually says without any justification other than that your worldview requires you to do so.
In other words, sometimes God allows and even commands immoral things, but he is still a moral God? Is there anything you could not justify with this line of argument? Do you not find such a moral tautology even the slightest bit disturbing?
Lurker
Kit Carson
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Well I will let you in on a little secret. My last post was for all, not just for you.
You see God gives us a spirit of discernment. This means that we know when someone just wants to play or cause trouble. This can go on for days with no resolution.
A person who calls themselves Lurker wishes to play. I figured it was cool as some things said will educate others on some things they may have not looked at or understood. So my explanations were for all who may get some use of it.
If you do not wish to believe in God and if you wish to constantly attack God, that is cool with me. You are no threat to me or my faith and no words you can say can cause me to deny God.
I will as I type this ask God to help you and show you the truth of things . When he calls it will be your choice to accept or walk away.
But I am done with a pointless endless situation as this is not my first turnip patch. :shade::shade:
May God hold you and show you his kindness and his truth.
Respectfully
Kit
Mr. Traverse
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Kit, with all do respect you seem to just be stuffing the issue under the rug the moment you can't sufficiently justify (more to yourself than to anyone else, it seems) the immorality of God's commandments. The only game being played is your dismissal of the issue.
If all you have is biblical evidence for God and our understanding of God when determining what is true about God and what is false, then the only one dismissing "the truth" is you. Lurker is absolutely correct in that God has commanded, condoned, or committed actions that most people in this world today only relate to the tyrannical disgusting characters of human history. Most people today view slavery, especially the kind detailed within the Bible, as monstrous behavior that should be legislated against, and your attempts at excusing God's supposed commandments demonstrate you feel the same way.
Why anyone would worship such a being that they have such disgust for is beyond me.
Respectfully,
Traverse
Mr. Traverse
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If God is "way beyond our understanding" then you would presumably agree that the conclusion of "God is moral" is not and cannot be sufficiently justified, yes? (at least without using our own human faculties and reasoning abilities)
You should at least concede that if we cannot understand God, then there is the possibility of God being an immoral tyrannical character. And if all we have to go off of is our own human understanding, then you'd be forced to justify God's commandments, actions and condoning of rape, murder, genocide, slavery etc. using our human understanding if you are going to claim that this being is at all a moral entity. You can't simply say "His actions are beyond us, therefore he is moral." because by your own admittance we can't know whether he is moral or immoral according to him. We can only know according to ourselves and our human reasoning abilities.
So the question is: Do you, as worshipers of this God, agree that rape, genocide, slavery are moral actions? And again, this is according to our own human understanding. If the answer is "No", which I hope and assume it is, then you would agree that this God is acting in a very immoral manner. And because this God is "way beyond our understanding", that's all you've got to go off of. Your own abilities. So then you'd have to justify why worshiping such a terrible being (by all accounts we can understand) is something you or anyone else should partake in.
Respectfully,
Traverse
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ItinerantLurker
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I'm not "attacking God", I'm showing you what the bible explicitly says and discussing the issue of reconciling immoral commandments with the idea of a moral god.
I should hope not.
Lurker
Hello Traverse.
I do appreciate your replies Mr Traverse.
I will provide firstly the scriptures to support what I said.
1 Kings 8:27
Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!
The scriptures state that God is beyond human comprehension.
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
This is not my hypothesis Mr Traverse this is what is written.
God is Spirit.
I cannot conclude that God is moral, I have no moral yardstick to measure with.
That is way beyond human ability, no conclusions are possible.
I hope you understand this post.
I do appreciate your replies Mr Traverse.
I will provide firstly the scriptures to support what I said.
1 Kings 8:27
Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!
The scriptures state that God is beyond human comprehension.
John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
This is not my hypothesis Mr Traverse this is what is written.
God is Spirit.
I cannot conclude that God is moral, I have no moral yardstick to measure with.
That is way beyond human ability, no conclusions are possible.
I hope you understand this post.
I find it interesting that the moment God's morality entered the debate, people's ardour seemed to be significantly doused.
On an unrelated note, the Canadian Museum of Civilization opened a new exhibit called 'Which god do you pray to?'. The exhibit shows the different religions of the world side by side, organized by themes instead of by religion. Thus, Christian beliefs about prayer are placed side by side with Muslim beliefs and with Jewish beliefs and Sikh beliefs and many many others.
I haven't attended it, but I do wish to go. Perhaps I will report my findings here after attending.
In the meantime, what are your thoughts on this? Is this something that would be unheard of in the 'States? What are your thoughts on the fact that the christian faith is displayed on an equal footing with a diversity of other faiths?
On an unrelated note, the Canadian Museum of Civilization opened a new exhibit called 'Which god do you pray to?'. The exhibit shows the different religions of the world side by side, organized by themes instead of by religion. Thus, Christian beliefs about prayer are placed side by side with Muslim beliefs and with Jewish beliefs and Sikh beliefs and many many others.
I haven't attended it, but I do wish to go. Perhaps I will report my findings here after attending.
In the meantime, what are your thoughts on this? Is this something that would be unheard of in the 'States? What are your thoughts on the fact that the christian faith is displayed on an equal footing with a diversity of other faiths?
Hello BCRE8TVE.
I noticed that you made a claim in your reply, the claim follows.
"I find it interesting that the moment God's morality entered the debate,
people's ardour seemed to be significantly doused."
Morality: noun,
principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
The extent to which an action is right or wrong: the issue of the morality
of the possession of nuclear weapons.
I wish to discuss your statement in light of the definition of morality.
When Genesis states that God created the Heavens and the Earth.
Am I able to discuss whether that is good or wrong (morality)
What principles (see above) do I employ to discuss this event.
If you could propose some hypothesis regarding morality, the debate may continue.
I am zealous in this area, my ardor is not doused.
I noticed that you made a claim in your reply, the claim follows.
"I find it interesting that the moment God's morality entered the debate,
people's ardour seemed to be significantly doused."
Morality: noun,
principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
The extent to which an action is right or wrong: the issue of the morality
of the possession of nuclear weapons.
I wish to discuss your statement in light of the definition of morality.
When Genesis states that God created the Heavens and the Earth.
Am I able to discuss whether that is good or wrong (morality)
What principles (see above) do I employ to discuss this event.
If you could propose some hypothesis regarding morality, the debate may continue.
I am zealous in this area, my ardor is not doused.
Perhaps I pronounced myself too soon, and that people simply post less during the week end or something, but it does seem that compared to other topics, people aren't really jumping into this one.
I am unsure what you mean. I meant that some acts as described in the bible, many of which were ordered by God Himself, we would declare as immoral today. Therefore, is God as moral as some say he is?
The act of creation in and of itself is not moral or immoral. Producing a gun in and of itself is not immoral. Morality is what someone chooses to do with that weapon.
I am not sure what you mean by hypothesis regarding morality. Do you mean to ask where morality comes from?
Hello BCRE8TVE.
This topic is starting to become interesting!
You actually will read a reply BCRE8TVE, I appreciate that.
Simply, how can BCRE8TVE construct a system of morality with which BCRE8TVE is able to decide the morality of the God of the Bible.
The text states that God is well beyond human understanding.
How do you do that BCRE8TVE, I need to know. What standard or measure do you use? What is the initial hypothesis?
This topic is starting to become interesting!
You actually will read a reply BCRE8TVE, I appreciate that.
Simply, how can BCRE8TVE construct a system of morality with which BCRE8TVE is able to decide the morality of the God of the Bible.
The text states that God is well beyond human understanding.
How do you do that BCRE8TVE, I need to know. What standard or measure do you use? What is the initial hypothesis?
ItinerantLurker
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What possible difference does this make? Unless, that is, you are saying that slavery, rape, and murder are not immoral as long as God commands them.
Lurker
I read every single reply on every single thread I participate in, so I can better understand. I only reply when I have something worthwhile to say though
If God is beyond our understanding, then I can't say he is immoral, and you can't say he is moral either. If God is beyond our understanding, then all arguments stop, and anything we say will only be a matter of opinions.
My system of morality is relative. I look at how people work, what helps them and what hurts them, how they react to what is said and what happens. What causes harm is generally bad, and what causes good is generally good. However, good can come from bad (ie: killing people might be immoral, but killing Hitler would have saved a lot of people) and bad might come of good (not punishing your child for the bad things he does will make you raise a spoiled brat). So you look at the amount of good and the amount of bad that will result from every action, taking into account the importance of life, and the fact that a small amount of bad for everyone is not necessarily equal to a great amount of bad for one person.
I also take into account that we are individuals living in society. Some actions may seem immoral when taken against individuals (taxes is the government stealing money) but necessary if we want to have a functioning society.
In short, I have built my moral system since the day I was born, I am still building it now, and I will keep building it until the day I die. I will learn from my mistakes, I will learn new things which will change my position on the morality of some things, but most importantly, I will accept that people have differing morals and I cannot enforce mine on others. I can try to convince them, to make them change, but ultimately it is they who must change from the inside. I cannot change their morals on my own.
Many states allow citizens to use deadly force to protect the lives, homes and personal property from those that might come on their land for the purpose to kill, steal or destroy;
is the person who might use deadly force in such cases immoral or evil?
Hello BCRE8TVE.
BCRE8TVE replied,
"If God is beyond our understanding, then I can't say he is immoral,
and you can't say he is moral either. If God is beyond our understanding,
then all arguments stop, and anything we say will only be a matter of opinions."
Yes, you are one smart boy BCRE8TVE.
Yes, and our opinion must be informed, the text must at least have been studied.
The text must be quoted in context, with a clear depth of understanding.
Otherwise the opinion is ill informed, worthless.
After all, the Old Testament text at the least is the history of Israel.
At a more substantial level, the revelation from God to Israel and beyond, to all mankind.
This what is stated within the text, not my opinion.
Should BCRE8TVE then say that, God tells Israel to destroy a city.
I would reply, yes, it is God's prerogative to use Israel to judge that city,
after all God created the people involved in the first instance.
The text does say also that God is restraining His judgement on human kind in general.
Because God has a purpose and plan for Israel. They will be the launch platform for Jesus Christ,
the Savior of the World.
__________________________________________________________
BCRE8TVE replied,
"If God is beyond our understanding, then I can't say he is immoral,
and you can't say he is moral either. If God is beyond our understanding,
then all arguments stop, and anything we say will only be a matter of opinions."
Yes, you are one smart boy BCRE8TVE.
Yes, and our opinion must be informed, the text must at least have been studied.
The text must be quoted in context, with a clear depth of understanding.
Otherwise the opinion is ill informed, worthless.
After all, the Old Testament text at the least is the history of Israel.
At a more substantial level, the revelation from God to Israel and beyond, to all mankind.
This what is stated within the text, not my opinion.
Should BCRE8TVE then say that, God tells Israel to destroy a city.
I would reply, yes, it is God's prerogative to use Israel to judge that city,
after all God created the people involved in the first instance.
The text does say also that God is restraining His judgement on human kind in general.
Because God has a purpose and plan for Israel. They will be the launch platform for Jesus Christ,
the Savior of the World.
__________________________________________________________
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Hello WaterRock.
WaterRock did pose an interesting question?
"Many states allow citizens to use deadly force to protect the lives, homes and personal property
from those that might come on their land for the purpose to kill, steal or destroy;is the person
who might use deadly force in such cases immoral or evil?"
I will use an example from the International stage.
Israel announced a preemptive strike on the nuclear facilities in Iran.
Israel announced that it will strike before April, 2012.
Iran is a direct and lethal threat to the citizens of Israel.
Iran announced that "Israel is a cancer that must be removed."
Iran's proposed genocide of Israel must be terminated.
No nation has the authority to commit genocide!
We have very deep problems in humanity waterrock.
This current problem is beyond doubt a clear indictment against humanity.
This matter may be above a simple case of right and wrong.
Questions start arising, who gave Iran the technology?
Who gave nuclear technology to Governments?
Why does Iran see Israel as an enemy?
The Jews are related to the people of Iran.
They have common ancestors.
This problem will only intensify in coming years.
WaterRock did pose an interesting question?
"Many states allow citizens to use deadly force to protect the lives, homes and personal property
from those that might come on their land for the purpose to kill, steal or destroy;is the person
who might use deadly force in such cases immoral or evil?"
I will use an example from the International stage.
Israel announced a preemptive strike on the nuclear facilities in Iran.
Israel announced that it will strike before April, 2012.
Iran is a direct and lethal threat to the citizens of Israel.
Iran announced that "Israel is a cancer that must be removed."
Iran's proposed genocide of Israel must be terminated.
No nation has the authority to commit genocide!
We have very deep problems in humanity waterrock.
This current problem is beyond doubt a clear indictment against humanity.
This matter may be above a simple case of right and wrong.
Questions start arising, who gave Iran the technology?
Who gave nuclear technology to Governments?
Why does Iran see Israel as an enemy?
The Jews are related to the people of Iran.
They have common ancestors.
This problem will only intensify in coming years.
Kit Carson
Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2010
- Messages
- 433
Aye: Guns and morality.
I agree with things that do meet the morality of God. So I fully agree with your statement about guns.
Where did swords and guns and weapons come from. They come from us. From a stone to kill with in the beginning to modern weapons they are our inventions. The way of God would be perfect and there would be no killing and no need for any weapon.........but...........you see.......sin entered the world and there is a need for them.
The modern Christian teaching is to be meek, they do not understand the meaning of meek, so they teach to lay down and never fight back. To accept all as Gods will. This is not so.
I spent almost five years in Vietnam in combat, I served as a police officer for some three years when I got out of the military. i have used deadly force and I have killed. And I sleep well. I have no fear of condemnation from God in the enforcement of pushing away crime and sin. What is required in society is acceptable to God as long as it is in his way of his acceptance. I refuse to say it is his will as Gods will is to never be in a position to kill to begin with, but as society is not perfect this is a requirement at times.
Long ago God and the Jewish people set laws to govern society with. They were carried out on the spot. We differ in this today as we have built jails and have many social programs.
But God in his word tells me with full confidence that if a man on earth is intent upon a serious crime, and has killed the store owner and comes out of the store with intent to kill me, I can act with force and stop him and not worry one bit about it.
As God says, they make their own choices, they made the choice to do this act. So you are my soldier in the enforcement of their consequences. As God said long ago, their blood is upon themselves. They made that choice.
I like to discuss the morals of God, and the way people look at them. I love the way the evil bible sites turn things around. I love the way men attack God and try to show how he is a killer and is insane. No I do not love it, that is a figure of speech, it makes me sad actually as they do tend to think such things.
God is kind, he is just, he is compassionate, and he wishes above all things that there was no need for the use of weapons of man. But he does not condemn anyone who acts in truth and in the protection of themselves or others if and when it is required.
Such as my heart tells you, such as God has taught me in life.
Respectfully
Kit
Mr. Traverse
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So you are admitting that you cannot reason for yourself what is moral and immoral? You have no moral position on anything? Then in what alternate universe do you think it logical to proclaim that God is moral if you abstain from any moral proclamation, or indeed assert you cannot hold a moral position at all?
Respectfully,
Traverse
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Mr. Traverse
Member
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But why is it God's prerogative to use his creation in such a way? Assuming God exists and created everything, why does this make it OK for God to treat his creation in such a disgusting and harmful manner? This is a moral question, and to answer it you must concede that you are able to reason right from wrong and make moral proclamations from a standard of values and goals (hopefully you'll elucidate us as to what those are).
Furthermore, by what standard do you conclude that God is trustworthy and good? You see, these are all moral proclamations you are making, in some sense of the word.
Respectfully,
Traverse
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