Question for non-OSAS believers

[KingJ]

OSAS = Once saved always saved

A non-OSAS belief implies God is a wicked fool who perverts justice.

Question - Please explain to me how this is not the case with a non-OSAS belief.

Please do not copy past volumes and volumes of scriptures that seem to support non-OSAS. This thread is asking only for a simple answer to a simple question.

_____________________________

Non - OSAS belief implies the following perversion of justice:

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.
- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

Non - OSAS belief leads to the following:

Those that believe this, should lock themselves in a room in a cabin far far away from all society. As the Christian that actually works with the lost for God, can get corrupted by them and land up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity. We should pray daily, that just like the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, we die soon after conversion.

_____________________________

The bible tells us that God is not wicked in Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways.

The bible tells us that God is not a fool in Job 12:13 With Him are wisdom and might

The bible tells us that it is unthinkable that God would pervert justice in Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

 

[Dave M]

A non-OSAS belief implies God is a wicked fool who perverts justice.

I can always tell the maturity level of someone,,by the accusations they throw at people that don't agree with them

 

[Hekuran]

OSAS = Once saved always saved

A non-OSAS belief implies God is a wicked fool who perverts justice.

Question - Please explain to me how this is not the case with a non-OSAS belief.

Please do not copy past volumes and volumes of scriptures that seem to support non-OSAS. This thread is asking only for a simple answer to a simple question.

_____________________________

Non - OSAS belief implies the following perversion of justice:

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.
- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

Non - OSAS belief leads to the following:

Those that believe this, should lock themselves in a room in a cabin far far away from all society. As the Christian that actually works with the lost for God, can get corrupted by them and land up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity. We should pray daily, that just like the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, we die soon after conversion.

_____________________________

The bible tells us that God is not wicked in Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways.

The bible tells us that God is not a fool in Job 12:13 With Him are wisdom and might

The bible tells us that it is unthinkable that God would pervert justice in Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Maybe talk to some people who don't hold to a once saved always saved theology and gain some understanding before posting "gotcha" arguments. If you show a bit of respect for people who hold a different view to you, you find that you have better and more constructive conversations.

 

[KingJ]

I can always tell the maturity level of someone,,by the accusations they throw at people that don't agree with them

There is no personal insult here. I am calling out a heretical belief that misrepresents God to the lost.

 

[KingJ]

Maybe talk to some people who don't hold to a once saved always saved theology and gain some understanding before posting "gotcha" arguments. If you show a bit of respect for people who hold a different view to you, you find that you have better and more constructive conversations.

I have tried that here Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross.

And many times before on this forum and others. It seems non-OSAS believers avoid dealing with the logical reality / insunuation of their belief.

Me typing what non-OSAS implies is not me being disrespectful. It is what any unsaved person on the planet using the brain matter between their ears will arrive at. I really want a non-OSAS believer to convince me otherwise.

_______________________

The best argument I have heard is that our salvation is a process that consists of a preordained amount of time we are on earth. IE God knew person X would reach the necessary state of perfection on year Y. This argument raises more questions and is debunked by many scriptures. Heb 10:14 for example is a verse used to support this view, but the verse clearly says we are perfected forever and then are also going from 'holy to holy'.

Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Such a view implies that God is a liar (promising salvation Rom 10:13), a fool who would graft a demon into His family and wicked as He would expect more from some.

_____________________

If the penalty for ''missing the mark'' was not ETERNAL TORMENT, then sure, I can speak a lot nicer to those that believe and teach this kind of message. But its not. As such the teaching needs to defended properly by those who teach it as it does misrepresent God to not only the lost but also the saved who are weak in their faith.

I am calling this belief out. I am getting so tired of red herrings and dodging .

 

[Hekuran]

I have tried that here Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross.

And many times before on this forum and others. It seems non-OSAS believers avoid dealing with the logical reality / insunuation of their belief.

Me typing what non-OSAS implies is not me being disrespectful. It is what any unsaved person on the planet using the brain matter between their ears will arrive at. I really want a non-OSAS believer to convince me otherwise.

_______________________

The best argument I have heard is that our salvation is a process that consists of a preordained amount of time we are on earth. IE God knew person X would reach the necessary state of perfection on year Y. This argument raises more questions and is debunked by many scriptures. Heb 10:14 for example is a verse used to support this view, but the verse clearly says we are perfected forever and then are also going from 'holy to holy'.

Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Such a view implies that God is a liar (promising salvation Rom 10:13), a fool who would graft a demon into His family and wicked as He would expect more from some.

_____________________

If the penalty for ''missing the mark'' was not ETERNAL TORMENT, then sure, I can speak a lot nicer to those that believe and teach this kind of message. But its not. As such the teaching needs to defended properly by those who teach it as it does misrepresent God to not only the lost but also the saved who are weak in their faith.

I am calling this belief out. I am getting so tired of red herrings and dodging .

You've posted a lightweight caricature of non-OSAS beliefs. That may be part of the reason why you're not having very productive discussions.

 

[KingJ]

You've posted a lightweight caricature of non-OSAS beliefs. That may be part of the reason why you're not having very productive discussions.

Hekuran, you are creating a red herring. As did Dave M.

 

[Hekuran]

Hekuran, you are creating a red herring. As did Dave M.

OK. Well I hope you find someone who will want to take up the discussion with you.

 

[KingJ]

I just want to tone down my accusation of God that non-OSAS implies as it can suggest a non-OSAS believer has this view of God (wicked fool).

None of us are God who can judge depths of a persons heart Jer 17:9-11. It is understandable that many Christians that truly love the Lord believe in non-OSAS.

We know each other by our works Matt 7:20. If I see someone in unrepentant sin, I would say they are not saved and en route to hell. A non-OSAS believer would say they are shipwrecking their salvation and also en route to hell. We would both be compelled to reach out to the sinner with warnings in love, from scripture.

Paul does certainly not beat around the bush. He says 1 Cor 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall and that any who are unrepentant in sin will not be in heaven 1 Cor 6:9-12.

 

[Hekuran]

I just want to tone down my accusation of God that non-OSAS implies as it can suggest a non-OSAS believer has this view of God (wicked fool).

None of us are God who can judge depths of a persons heart Jer 17:9-11. It is understandable that many Christians that truly love the Lord believe in non-OSAS.

We know each other by our works Matt 7:20. If I see someone in unrepentant sin, I would say they are not saved and en route to hell. A non-OSAS believer would say they are shipwrecking their salvation and also en route to hell. We would both be compelled to reach out to the sinner with warnings in love, from scripture.

Paul does certainly not beat around the bush. He says 1 Cor 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall and that any who are unrepentant in sin will not be in heaven 1 Cor 6:9-12.

The pastoral issue behind the debate as I see it is this: some people have every appearance of following Jesus faithfully and wholeheartedly yet go on to completely reject the Christian faith and turn away from God.

People who hold to a once saved always saved view would say that, despite appearances, they were never truly belonged to Christ Jesus; others might say that they had received salvation but had rejected it and cut themselves off from God.

There are good and faithful Christians taking each view.

My own observation is that many Bible passages such as Hebrews 3:6 indicate that persevering in the faith to the end is the true mark of salvation.

 

[B-A-C]

Often defining a fool is as difficult as defining a Christian or even God. If we can't agree on one, we likely won't agree on the other.

For example someone might say you're a fool if you don't like the New York Yankees, or the Dallas Cowboys, or drive a Ford pickup.
Now of course every one of those perceptions is based on someone else's idea of what a fool is. Millions of people like these teams
and drive Fords, obviously they don't consider themselves fools.

It's much the same with asking if God is a fool. (I myself would never ask such a question, but here I am answering )
God is only a fool if He is doing something I would consider foolish. However, I don't consider anything He does as foolish.
(Such as throwing people into the Lake of Fire, or allowing to become un-saved).

And since we don't consider these things to be foolish, we cannot define God as foolish. The question become irrelevant.

 

[Dave M]

Why did Jesus threaten to blot members of the church in Sardis out of the book of life if they did not repent, that sure sounds like salvation lost to me

 

[KingJ]

Why did Jesus threaten to blot members of the church in Sardis out of the book of life if they did not repent, that sure sounds like salvation lost to me

Interesting point Dave. I believe they were on par with ''so called Christians'' 1 Cor 5:11 He does not know as described in Matt 7:21-23.

As for blotted out of the book of life. The picture most Christians draw is one where all born again Christians get their name written in the book of life. This is a false picture I believe for two reasons:

1 In the OT one could have their name removed from the book of life.

Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.
Exo 32:33 But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

2. Babies and children belong to heaven according to Jesus.

Luke 18:16 Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

I believe the correct picture to draw is one where everyone's names are already written in the book of life. Rejecting Jesus and being sold out to a love of what is evil is what results in your name being removed. This would be the case for those in the church of Sardis. They were not true Christians and had their names in the book of life from birth. Not repenting of their sins would get their names removed as would be the case for anybody who is unrepentant in sin.

A true Christian is not one who continues in sin unrepentant. We will never be amoung the 'so called' Christians Jesus mentions never knowing in Matt 7:21-23.

 

[Dave M]

I would disagree with your picture and consider it false. Why because scripture say we have to be worthy and endue to the end,, the picture you paint is appealing to sinners imo

 

[KingJ]

I would disagree with your picture and consider it false. Why because scripture say we have to be worthy and endue to the end,, the picture you paint is appealing to sinners imo

There is one verse that put me on the path to OSAS. I will give you it and pray it does likewise for you .

Heb 10:14

NIV - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
ESV - For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
NKJV - For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
KJV - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified

We are made perfect forever by the sacrifice of Jesus, those who go from holy to holy or are sanctifed as some translations like KJV state.

This verse makes clear the fact that it is not the ''holy to holy'' that makes us perfect. It is what takes place after we are born again / made perfect by the sacrifice of Jesus.

 

[B-A-C]

NIV - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
ESV - For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
NKJV - For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
KJV - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified

I think the non-OSAS view here would be... "being" made holy.
"being" sanctified. Not all the way there yet, but on the way.

But for sake of argument, lets say they make it all the way there. They are fully sanctified and holy. 100%.
Even then, that has nothing to do with OSAS. Non-OSAS doesn't say they never were Holy Saved, In fact they believe
just the opposite - they "WERE" holy and saved. You can't get un-saved, if you were never saved in the first place.

But just because you were made clean and Holy doesn't mean you can't get dirty again, if you try hard enough.

Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

So again, from the non-OSAS view, these verses don't support OSAS in any way.

1 In the OT one could have their name removed from the book of life.

It sounds like they can in the NT also.

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

That's great that overcomer's won't have their names erased, but what if I never overcome?

 

[Waggles]

DEPART or, apostatize. Gr. aphistēmi (S# G868, Luke 2:37; compare S# G646, apostasia, Acts 21:21 g and 2Thess 2:3 g).
Those who support the unqualified doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved," or unconditional eternal security, are in direct denial of another Bible doctrine, the doctrine or teaching of the Bible regarding the possibility and danger of apostasy. There is much in the Bible on the subject of apostasy, and it cannot simply be ignored or "swept under the rug."
Those who teach unconditional eternal security need to consider whether the direct statements of Scripture affirm apostasy is possible.
One cannot logically be said to depart, fall away, or apostatize from a faith which one never held in the first place.
Paul is addressing these warnings to believers, not unbelievers.
One must not appeal to an isolated text such as John 10:28, and force it to teach unconditional security, when such a statement in its context is clearly said of those who Jesus declares "hear my voice" and "follow me" (John 10:27).
A text like John 5:24 shows by the use of the present tenses in the Greek that the promise is to those who keep on hearing and believing (John 3:16 note).
In the context of Romans 8, the subject of apostasy is not in view. A text like Rom 8:30 is not addressing the unconditional security of the believer but the certainty of our glorification with Christ, despite how difficult our present circumstances might seem.
In context (Rom 8:17) such confidence relates directly to our eternal inheritance with Christ as co-heirs in his earthly Messianic kingdom, an inheritance which is not rendered less certain because of present trials and tribulations, but more certain, for our reward and position is only increased by our perseverance (+*Matt 5:11; +*Matt 5:12).
One does not apostatize every time a sin is committed. Moral apostasy consists of willfully persisting in known sin (+*1Cor 6:9-11, Heb 10:26, 1John 3:9).
Although one is never said in Scripture to be saved over and over again, or to be born again more than once, this fact does not remove the validity of all the warnings to believers against both moral (+*1Cor 6:9-11) and doctrinal (+*1Cor 15:2) apostasy.
Certainly there would be no point in warning believers against what was impossible (1Thess 3:5 note).
While the Bible emphatically teaches the eternal security of the believer (Matt 24:13 note), and makes the security of salvation in no sense dependent upon good works to stay saved, this security belongs to believers who continue to place their faith in Christ for salvation, not unconditionally to persons who by a single act of faith allegedly "received Christ" but have since departed from the faith doctrinally or morally.
The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury by Jerome H. Smith © 2004
to be continued in next posting ...

 

[Waggles]

That eternal security is not unconditional is proved
(1) by repeated warnings to believers against doctrinal and moral apostasy;
(2) by the presence of "if" clauses (+Matt 4:9 note. +*2Peter 1:10);
(3) Paul’s repeated concern that his labour not be in vain (1Thess 3:5 note);
(4) by the recorded instances of individuals who departed from true faith (+*Heb 10:38);
(5) because believing or saving faith is always represented in Greek as a continuing active faith, not a single or one time act of faith (John 3:16 note);
(6) because Jesus said it is possible to stop believing (+*Luke 8:13).
To suggest, as many contemporary expositors do, that the warnings against apostasy in the book of Hebrews were addressed only to Jewish Christians who were in danger of forsaking Christianity and falling back into Judaism, and therefore cannot apply to believers today, is at best a shaky assumption, and at worst is taking away from the Word of God by wrongly rendering its warnings inapplicable to present day believers.
As the warnings against apostasy are addressed with greater frequency to the Gentile Christians addressed in Paul’s epistles (+*1Cor 15:2), such an argument has no force.
To deny the force of the warning in Heb 6:4-6 by relegating the Apostle’s argument to a "reductio ad absurdum," or reduction to an absurdity, is begging the question, as Spiros Zodhiates does in a footnote in his otherwise excellent work (The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, pp. 1496, 1497).
Few readers of that day or this would be in position to appreciate such a display of the niceties of rhetoric as the argument necessarily supposes was the author’s intention. Such interpreters, in their mistaken effort to support the theory of unconditional eternal security, ignore, suppress, or explain away all contrary evidence (2Peter 1:20 note, in violation of Rule 4).
Such a procedure is invalid because, by its practice, the interpreter makes it impossible for God to assert a contrary truth. No matter how God might choose to express such a truth, the interpreter intent on defending this mistaken theory would explain the language away.
An example of a clever but mistaken attempt to escape the logical consequences of this passage (1Tim 4:1) is the effort to redefine the Greek terms for apostasy used here and at 2Thess 2:3 to mean "stand aloof from," making the reference to be to persons who were never believers, but simply those who associated with the Christians (Spiros Zodhiates, The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, p. 1468, note on 2Th_2:3).
Zodhiates’ redefinition also involves him in the exegetical "word study" fallacy discussed by D. A. Carson as "The Root Fallacy" (Exegetical Fallacies, pp. 26-32). Such a redefinition is rendered necessary by the exigencies of the theory of unconditional eternal security, as Zodhiates’ ensuing arguments using John 10:28, Rom 8:38-39, etc., show.
This view is in error for the word "apostasy," in Greek, apostasia, in its religious use necessarily includes a prior turning to God (Heinrich Schlier, TDNT, vol. 1, p. 513, note 4), a concept rendered certain here by the next words "from the faith." +1Tim 1:19, +1Sam 15:11, Dan 11:35; Dan 11:38, Matt 24:5-12, +**Luke 8:13 g. John 5:24; John 10:27-28, +**1Cor 6:9-11; +*1Cor 15:2, 1Thess 3:5, 2Thess 2:3 g. 2Tim 3:1-5; 2Tim 4:4; 2Tim 4:10, +*Heb 3:12; Heb 10:26; +Heb 10:38; and Heb 10:39, +*2Peter 1:10, 1John 3:9, *Rev 3:8.
The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury by Jerome H. Smith © 2004

 

[Butch5]

OSAS = Once saved always saved

A non-OSAS belief implies God is a wicked fool who perverts justice.

Question - Please explain to me how this is not the case with a non-OSAS belief.

Please do not copy past volumes and volumes of scriptures that seem to support non-OSAS. This thread is asking only for a simple answer to a simple question.

_____________________________

Non - OSAS belief implies the following perversion of justice:

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.
- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

Non - OSAS belief leads to the following:

Those that believe this, should lock themselves in a room in a cabin far far away from all society. As the Christian that actually works with the lost for God, can get corrupted by them and land up burning in the fires of hell for all eternity. We should pray daily, that just like the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, we die soon after conversion.

_____________________________

The bible tells us that God is not wicked in Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways.

The bible tells us that God is not a fool in Job 12:13 With Him are wisdom and might

The bible tells us that it is unthinkable that God would pervert justice in Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Firstly, can you define what you mean by justice? What is the standard of Justice that we are to use?

 

[KingJ]

I think the non-OSAS view here would be... "being" made holy.
"being" sanctified. Not all the way there yet, but on the way.

Yes, sure, and that would be a bastardisation of the verse. For it clearly says ''made perfect forever''' those who are ''becoming holy''.

But for sake of argument, lets say they make it all the way there. They are fully sanctified and holy. 100%.
Even then, that has nothing to do with OSAS. Non-OSAS doesn't say they never were Holy Saved, In fact they believe
just the opposite - they "WERE" holy and saved. You can't get un-saved, if you were never saved in the first place.

The problem here for you is the word ''forever''. Made perfect, forever = OSAS.

But just because you were made clean and Holy doesn't mean you can't get dirty again, if you try hard enough.

Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

I don't believe you are reading these verses properly.

Heb 12:15

This speaks to when we get saved. No Christian will be among those that ''come short'' of the grace of God. The second part can speak to both. If it speaks to a true Christian ( as we are not perfect like God) the context needed is that if you are truly washed by the blood of Jesus you cannot be defiled again. You have been judged Jer 17:9-12 and passed. Jesus dies for sins current and future. We all really do need to understand that even in heaven we will sin Sinning never ends. Non-OSAS implies we may have to be nervous of sinning for all eternity. Like God is a human who cannot truly judge our hearts Jer 17:9-12 I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind.

Heb 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
1 Pet 1:2 According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord.

2 Pet 2:22

A Christian, someone sold out to Jesus can never be a ''dog'' that will return to its own vomit. Imagine 'ever' calling someone who takes a bullet for you a 'dog'. This speaks to Christians 'so called' 1 Cor 5:11, Christians 'never known' by God Matt 7:23, or those that were 'not one of us' as they were still 'dogs' 1 John 2:19.

It sounds like they can in the NT also.

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

That's great that overcomer's won't have their names erased, but what if I never overcome?

The context of 'overcomer' in the tribulation is mentioned in Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 2:10 speaks to martyrdom. Imagine that. A single action at a depth of intent resulting in receiving the eternal crown of life.