Question for non-OSAS believers

[B-A-C]

1. You seem to assume our 'human ability' to believe Jesus is 'Lord' carries weight with God. You need to understand that it does not. Us believing Jesus exists carries zero weight with God.

We will have to disagree on this. The whole premise of salvation is based on "your faith".

Matt 9:22; But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Matt 9:29; Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Matt 15:28; Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
Matt 17:20; And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Mark 2:5 ; And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Mark 5:34; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction."
Mark 10:52; And Jesus said to him, "Go; your faith has made you well." Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him on the road.
Luke 5:20; Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."
Luke 7:50; And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 8:25; And He said to them, "Where is your faith?" They were fearful and amazed, saying to one another, "Who then is this, that He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey Him?"
Luke 8:48; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace."
Luke 17:19; And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well."
Luke 18:42; And Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has made you well."
Luke 22:32; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

1Cor 15:14; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Cor 15:17; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Col 2:5; For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
Col 2:7; having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Acts 3:16; "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

Rom 1:17; For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Rom 3:22; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Rom 3:26; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 4:5; But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 5:1; Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
2Cor 13:5; Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

There is so much to say here. But your salvation rests on your faith.

 

[KingJ]

We will have to disagree on this. The whole premise of salvation is based on "your faith".

Matt 9:22; But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Matt 9:29; Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Matt 15:28; Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
Matt 17:20; And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Mark 2:5 ; And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Mark 5:34; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction."
Mark 10:52; And Jesus said to him, "Go; your faith has made you well." Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him on the road.
Luke 5:20; Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."
Luke 7:50; And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 8:25; And He said to them, "Where is your faith?" They were fearful and amazed, saying to one another, "Who then is this, that He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey Him?"
Luke 8:48; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace."
Luke 17:19; And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well."
Luke 18:42; And Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has made you well."
Luke 22:32; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

1Cor 15:14; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Cor 15:17; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Col 2:5; For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
Col 2:7; having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Acts 3:16; "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

Rom 1:17; For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Rom 3:22; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Rom 3:26; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 4:5; But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 5:1; Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
2Cor 13:5; Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

There is so much to say here. But your salvation rests on your faith.

Before I respond. You know that the word 'faith' is simply a verb in something unseen being seen, correct.

As such, in these scriptures, what 'faith' exactly do you believe the scriptures are alluding to?

Matt 9:22; But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.

What faith is 'my faith'?

Rom 5:1; Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

What faith justifies me?

Faith is one topic that is so terribly mistaught. We need to properly explain the faith required lest the reader assume it is faith like my child has in Santa Claus.

 

[B-A-C]

I don't have time to get to this tonight, but I will try in the next day or two.

Faith can be thread all on it's own (there have been several here). But consider this...

If God gives faith to some, and no faith to others... then we are back to pre-destination.
God has already decided who is going to be saved, and who isn't.
If I'm not saved, it's God's fault. He picked me not to be saved.

No, it's OUR faith that saves us. He gives a measure of faith to ALL men.

Rom 12:3; For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

 

[KingJ]

I don't have time to get to this tonight, but I will try in the next day or two.

Faith can be thread all on it's own (there have been several here). But consider this...

If God gives faith to some, and no faith to others... then we are back to pre-destination.
God has already decided who is going to be saved, and who isn't.
If I'm not saved, it's God's fault. He picked me not to be saved.

No, it's OUR faith that saves us. He gives a measure of faith to ALL men.

Rom 12:3; For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Absolutely no need to bring 'pre-destination' into the discussion. You forget a third option in the underlined sentence. Namely, God gives faith to the 'whomsoever' that repents. He gives no 'saving faith / Jesus' to those that don't open the door to Him Rev 3:20.

This does not have to be complicated or time consuming. I will try simplify it.

1. No human can muster up faith to believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago rose from the dead and is God of the universe.
2. Faith of a tiny mustard seed is required to move a mountain. As such faith for healing from God or in a 'miracle worker' with testimonies of respected persons preceding them, is not an 'achievement' of faith.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

We will have to disagree on this. The whole premise of salvation is based on "your faith".

Matt 9:22; But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Matt 9:29; Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Matt 15:28; Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
Matt 17:20; And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
Mark 2:5 ; And Jesus seeing their faith *said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Mark 5:34; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction."
Mark 10:52; And Jesus said to him, "Go; your faith has made you well." Immediately he regained his sight and began following Him on the road.
Luke 5:20; Seeing their faith, He said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven you."
Luke 7:50; And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
Luke 8:25; And He said to them, "Where is your faith?" They were fearful and amazed, saying to one another, "Who then is this, that He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey Him?"
Luke 8:48; And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace."
Luke 17:19; And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well."
Luke 18:42; And Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has made you well."
Luke 22:32; but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

1Cor 15:14; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Cor 15:17; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

Col 2:5; For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.
Col 2:7; having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Acts 3:16; "And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all.

Rom 1:17; For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Rom 3:22; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Rom 3:26; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 4:5; But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Rom 5:1; Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
2Cor 13:5; Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

There is so much to say here. But your salvation rests on your faith.

Absolutely. And why if you depart from faith - you depart from your salvation. Thus OSAS is not scriptural. Faith is the railway track that God uses to deliver salvation. No tracks - no delivery. And the security of the believer depends on a living relationship with Christ not on what is our positional standing with God. It depends on our experiential walk with Christ.

John 15:6 if a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

This puts the onus on the believer - abide or abide not. To abide is to obey his will as laid out in His word.

Heb 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Separation from the world and things of the world is part of holiness. (another post)

in view of this call to live a life of holiness

1Pet1:16 You shall be holy, for I am holy

and in view of the clear teaching, that a man may have his name taken out of the Book of Life

Rev 22:19 - .........God shall take away his part out of the book of life,

and in view of the fact that one who believes for a while can fall away Luke 8:13.

Based on what the Bible teaches about our salvation .OSAS is not a Biblical teaching.

 

[B-A-C]

1. No human can muster up faith to believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago rose from the dead and is God of the universe.

Mark 10:15; "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
Luke 18:17; "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

No human? Children believe in in Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Unicorns...
Some adults believe in UFO's, bigfoot, the loch ness monster, vampires, and honest politicians...
If you're using "logic" to accept Jesus, it doesn't work. It has to be faith.

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Absolutely no need to bring 'pre-destination' into the discussion.

As soon as you say God gives some faith, and others no faith... It's predestination. You cannot separate the two.
Before KingJ was born I've decided, I'm not going to ever give him faith. He can never believe in me.
Before BAC was born, I've already decided I'm going to give him faith, enough faith to believe in me and get saved.

Any decision made before we were born is predestination. Now I do believe God predestinates some things. But not our decision of salvation.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[B-A-C]

Absolutely no need to bring 'pre-destination' into the discussion.

OSAS only works with predestination. It comes down to free-will.

From - What is TULIP in Calvinism?

The following are the five points of Calvinism listed, explained, and supported with scripture.

1. Total Depravity– Man is completely touched/affected by sin in all that he is (in nature he is completely fallen), but is not as bad as he could be (in action, i.e., not all murder, etc.). Furthermore, this total depravity means that the unregenerate will not, of their own free will, choose to receive Christ.
   1. It is the unbeliever who is deceitful and wicked (Jer. 17:9), full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), loves darkness rather than light and does evil (John 3:19), does not seek for God nor does any good (Rom. 3:10-12), is ungodly (Rom. 5:6), dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1), by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3), cannot accept or understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), and a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).
2. Unconditional Election– God elects a person based upon nothing in that person because there is nothing in him that would make him worthy of being chosen; rather, God’s election is based on what is in God. God chose us because he decided to bestow his love and grace upon us, not because we are worthy, in and of ourselves, of being saved.
   1. Election is the sovereign act of God where, from before the foundation of the world, he chose those whom he would save (Eph. 1:4). This election to salvation is not conditioned upon any foreseen faith (Rom. 9:16) or good works of any individual (Rom. 9:11; 2 Tim. 1:9). The election is based completely on God’s sovereign choice according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:11). God chose the elect because he decided to bestow his love upon them (John 3:16; Eph. 2:4) based solely on his sovereign grace (Gal. 1:15) and for his glory (Isaiah 43:7).
3. Limited Atonement– Christ bore the sin only of the elect, not everyone who ever lived.
   1. Christ’s blood was sufficient for all, but not all sin was imputed to Christ. Christ’s blood is sufficient to cover all people. But the sufficiency relates to his divine value which is different than our legal debt. Sin is a debt (Matt. 6:12 with Luke 11:4) since it is breaking the Law of God (1 John 3:4). In limited atonement, Calvinists are saying that there was a limit to whose sins were imputed to Christ in a legal sense. They are not denying the sufficiency of Christ’s blood to cover all people. Instead, they look at the legal aspect of the sin debt. Peoples’ sin debts were transferred to Jesus (1 Pet. 2:24) and were canceled on the cross, not when we believe (Col. 2:14). Therefore, legally speaking, those canceled sins cannot be held against the sinner because their quality of being a debt has been canceled by being paid on the cross (John 19:30; Col. 2:14). If the debt is canceled, it does not exist and cannot be held against the debtor/sinner. Therefore, Christ only legally bore the sins of the elect even though his blood was sufficient to cover all. Also, consider 1 Sam. 3:14 which says, “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”
4. Irresistible Grace– The term, unfortunately, suggests a mechanical and coercive force upon an unwilling subject. This is not the case. Instead, it is the act of God making the person willing to receive him. It does not mean that a person cannot resist God’s will. It means that when God moves to save/regenerate a person, the sinner cannot thwart God’s movement and he will be regenerated
   1. God moves the heart of the person where he wishes it to go (Proverbs 21:1). The choice and mercy of God depend on God’s desire, not man’s ability (Romans 9:18).
5. Perseverance of the Saints – That we are so secure in Christ, that we cannot fall away.
   1. Jesus will not lose any who had been given to him by the Father (John 6:38-39); he gives eternal life to them so they will never perish (John 3:16; 10:27-28), and those who leave the faith were never believers to begin with (1 John 2:19).

If we work backwards from #5. Perseverance of the Saints... Which is already what you believe, can't add much to that.
So we move back to #4. Irresistible Grace... When God picks you, you can't say no. Even if you wanted to.
Ahhh, but that always leads to #3. .. "When God picks you"... God doesn't pick everyone under Calvinism. Jesus didn't die for everyone under Calvinism. He only died for some. He only died for those He "picked" to be saved.

Now #2... that's a tricky one. Even non-OSAS believe this. We can't do anything to GET saved initially. We can't be good enough, We can't pay enough, we can't pray enough. We can't do anything... but have faith in Jesus.
But if I believe no one can say no to God, then I also have to believe He picks who does and doesn't get saved. Because obviously everyone doesn't get saved. So anyone who says no to God, was obviously picked by God to say no.
Now it seems you also believe in #1 as well, Total Depravity. - which says no one can come to God on their own. ... again only those who God "picks" to come to Him, will come to Him.

So in reality you are a 5 point Calvinist, and I say that with no condemnation or no animosity toward you at all. It's just where you are.
But my point here is... you can't get to number 5, unless you believe 1 through 4. Every message you have posted here bears that out.

 

[KingJ]

Mark 10:15; "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
Luke 18:17; "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."

No human? Children believe in in Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Unicorns...
Some adults believe in UFO's, bigfoot, the loch ness monster, vampires, and honest politicians...
If you're using "logic" to accept Jesus, it doesn't work. It has to be faith.

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

You are overly reading into Mark 10:15 and Luke 8:17. There is truth to child like faith. But God does not expect us to have that in Jesus being risen from the dead or being the Messiah.

The 'child like faith' would apply to believing 'all else' once we are established in faith in Jesus. IE Once we know who Jesus is and how God wants to be our father, we will learn to have faith 'in' God. Trusting God as a child trusting their earthly parents for their needs being met and what not else. Also, I suppose trusting that God exists and can remove us to hell for all eternity.

I am not sure how many times I have quoted the below scriptures to you, but please I beg you, grasp the 'nobody can call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit' and the fact that Peter, the only disciple with faith to walk on water, needed a revelation from above to believe Jesus was the Messiah.

Rom 12:3 Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.
1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Matt 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Please meditate on this:

When we become a Christian, we are given a measure of faith Rom 12:3, we hear God's voice John 10:27, He reaches out to us James 4:8, He makes Himself known to us / the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit Rom 8:16, we get a revelation of Jesus being Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

Once you properly grasp these scriptures you will / should realize that faith in God's existence, being able to do miracles and what not else is not needed. Not at all. Perhaps for some they may need to muster a little in His existence, as we do not actually see Him with our eyes. But every other box is ticked. Revelation of Jesus 10/10. Zero doubt. Peter did not wander around like a headless chicken trying to hold onto a belief that Jesus was truly the Messiah. Imagine that.

So, no, Christian faith is not akin to a faith in Santa Claus that a child will have.

________________________________

I love it when 'faith healers and teachers' speak of Abraham's 'faith'. I have been told that I must look to Abraham's faith when I want healing or prosperity. Really?

Abraham, literally heard God and from reading Gen 18 likely saw Him too. Abraham did not need faith in God's existence or Him talking to him. So, what faith did Abraham have that was so amazing?

It was a 'trust' in God. Now a good person like Abraham would only put his trust in God if God was good. God is good. Abraham trusted this to the very last second when asked to kill his son, Isaac.

That is faith of value to God for sure. A faith 'in' God. Paul trusted / had faith in God when he was shipwrecked, bitten by snakes, kept in prison, went hungry, received beatings 2 Cor 11:16-33. That is what scripture speaks to when it says the righteous will live by faith Rom 1:17. It is faith 'in' Jesus. Faith in God. Faith that God exists, should be a given, faith that Jesus is Lord, is a given.

As soon as you say God gives some faith, and others no faith... It's predestination. You cannot separate the two.
Before KingJ was born I've decided, I'm not going to ever give him faith. He can never believe in me.
Before BAC was born, I've already decided I'm going to give him faith, enough faith to believe in me and get saved.

Any decision made before we were born is predestination. Now I do believe God predestinates some things. But not our decision of salvation.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

BAC, not sure how you are getting yourself confused here.

Option 1. God cherry picks from birth who to give saving faith / Jesus being Lord to.
Option 2. God leaves faith to believe the impossibility of Jesus being Lord to humans.
Option 3. God waits for humans to truly repent of their sins / open the door to Jesus Rev 20:3 and then gives them saving faith of Jesus being Lord.

You talk as though only option 1 and 2 exist. Both are silly options. Cherry picking is partiality, God is impartial Acts 10:34. Leaving the impossible faith of Jesus being the Messiah / Lord up to us, is idiocy. God is not a fool Rom 16:27.

 

[KingJ]

OSAS only works with predestination. It comes down to free-will.

From - What is TULIP in Calvinism?



If we work backwards from #5. Perseverance of the Saints... Which is already what you believe, can't add much to that.
So we move back to #4. Irresistible Grace... When God picks you, you can't say no. Even if you wanted to.
Ahhh, but that always leads to #3. .. "When God picks you"... God doesn't pick everyone under Calvinism. Jesus didn't die for everyone under Calvinism. He only died for some. He only died for those He "picked" to be saved.

Now #2... that's a tricky one. Even non-OSAS believe this. We can't do anything to GET saved initially. We can't be good enough, We can't pay enough, we can't pray enough. We can't do anything... but have faith in Jesus.
But if I believe no one can say no to God, then I also have to believe He picks who does and doesn't get saved. Because obviously everyone doesn't get saved. So anyone who says no to God, was obviously picked by God to say no.
Now it seems you also believe in #1 as well, Total Depravity. - which says no one can come to God on their own. ... again only those who God "picks" to come to Him, will come to Him.

So in reality you are a 5 point Calvinist, and I say that with no condemnation or no animosity toward you at all. It's just where you are.
But my point here is... you can't get to number 5, unless you believe 1 through 4. Every message you have posted here bears that out.

Calvinism is a bastardisation of OSAS.

OSAS has been true from day one. Cherry picking, God being partial has been false from day one. God judging peoples hearts properly when they repent and not being a fool who would remove demons from heaven for all eternity or graft demons into heaven for all eternity, has been true from day one. Just find a demon and ask them if they are ever going back to heaven.

A non-OSAS belief that implies God sees value in us believing the unseen is seen or doing works to stay saved, is evidence of one not understanding the new covenant or God's expectations of 'faith'.

 

[B-A-C]

Option 3. God waits for humans to truly repent of their sins / open the door to Jesus Rev 20:3 and then gives them saving faith of Jesus being Lord.

Why would I repent, if I don't believe in God/Heaven/Hell? What would be the point? If there are no consequences, and no God then sin doesn't matter.
For that matter, sin doesn't even really exist, it's just an artificial construct of Christian theology. If there is no God, there is no sin to repent of.

 

[Dave M]

"Us believing Jesus exists carries zero weight with God."

I have to say my jaw hit the ground when I saw this foolish nonsense posted,

John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9​

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[KingJ]

"Us believing Jesus exists carries zero weight with God."

I have to say my jaw hit the ground when I saw this foolish nonsense posted,

John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Romans 10:9​

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Please read the full passage. The context is not believing He is Lord.

IE the man Jesus verse Him being Lord.

The scripture you quoted shows you merely cherry picked a line. Is this what the non-OSAS defense has come to?

 

[KingJ]

Why would I repent, if I don't believe in God/Heaven/Hell? What would be the point? If there are no consequences, and no God then sin doesn't matter.
For that matter, sin doesn't even really exist, it's just an artificial construct of Christian theology. If there is no God, there is no sin to repent of.

Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

This verse shows us that God made us a creation able to know good and evil. IE Able to hate either. IE Able to repent if we did something that hurt someone.

We know this, God gave us a mouth that can verbally apologize, fingers that can type a letter of apology, arms that can hug someone crying.

Knowledge of and the ability to repent is in our DNA. It takes willpower to harden your heart to repentance.

Jesus came with 'one' message, 'sinners repent'. His message was not explaining to all how to go about writing a letter of apology to someone we stole goods from. Imagine that.

Even atheists believe there is value in repentance and making right with others. It results in a better life. One with peace and tranquility.

Now, not only has God put it in our DNA, He knows He has 1. Instructed Adam and Eve on His ways to hand them down to His children, 2. sent prophets to all, Jonah for example went to a non-Jewish city Nineveh and 3. Jesus, His teachings were properly recorded for the whole world to know all about the importance of repentance. No adult with a working brain has an excuse on judgement day.

You are grabbing straws BAC.

 

[Br. Bear]

Option 3. God waits for humans to truly repent of their sins / open the door to Jesus Rev 20:3 and then gives them saving faith of Jesus being Lord.

Why would I repent, if I don't believe in God/Heaven/Hell? What would be the point? If there are no consequences, and no God then sin doesn't matter.
For that matter, sin doesn't even really exist, it's just an artificial construct of Christian theology. If there is no God, there is no sin to repent of.

Greetings,

faith without works is dead.

Except a man hear, how will he believe?
If he believes, he will repent
such is the work of God
that the man may have faith


Bless you ....><>

You see that his faith was working with his actions,
and his faith was perfected by what he did.

James 2:22

 

[Br. Bear]

 

[Br. Bear]

 

[Dave M]

Please read the full passage. The context is not believing He is Lord.

IF you beeleive in Jesus you beleive he is Lord

Please read the full passage. The context is not believing He is Lord.

IE the man Jesus verse Him being Lord.

The scripture you quoted shows you merely cherry picked a line. Is this what the non-OSAS defense has come to?

maybe I misunderstood what you were actually saying, lets clarify Believing in Jesus as Lord and as God in the flesh, is biblical and is part of salvation-------- agree or disagree?

Believing that Jesus existed as human really does not matter, if you do not believe that he was God in the flesh,---------- agree or disagree.

thanks

 

[B-A-C]

A non-OSAS belief that implies God sees value in us believing the unseen is seen or doing works to stay saved

At least we agree on that statement.

Option 3. God waits for humans to truly repent of their sins / open the door to Jesus Rev 20:3 and then gives them saving faith of Jesus being Lord.

How/Why would I open the door to something that I don't believe exists? If I don't have faith yet, how can I open the door ( would I even believe there is a door? ) to something/someone I don't believe exists yet.
If I don't believe there is a Jesus, I can't open the door to Jesus.

We don't have the power to repent and overcome our sins without Jesus. If we could, we wouldn't need Jesus. We cannot repent and turn from sin before we believe in Jesus.
We have no reason, no motivation to turn from sin if we don't believe in God.

 

[vhusley]

Yes, sure, and that would be a bastardisation of the verse. For it clearly says ''made perfect forever''' those who are ''becoming holy''.



The problem here for you is the word ''forever''. Made perfect, forever = OSAS.



I don't believe you are reading these verses properly.

Have you ever even considered that perhaps it is you who are mishandling this verse and reading it wrongly? "Forever" in this context, I believe simply means "IN ETERNITY".......not "forever in this life."

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

All of you OSAS deniers fail to comprehend this counterintuitive logic in the bible, that what we you don't determine who you are, who you are determines what you do. God's salvation doesn't give you a new set of behaviors, it gives you a new IDENTITY - in Christ, and empowers you by the Holy Spirit to abide in Christ. And just like you had contributed nothing to your own physical birth, neither can you contribute anything to your spiritual birth, that's one important takeaway and purpose in that birth analogy in Yeshua's talk with Nicodemus in John 3. Also, as much as you can't stuff yourself back into your mother's womb, as Nicodemus suggested, neither can you or anybody else reverse your spiritual birth. Granted, you can be unprofitable and failing to reach spiritual maturity, but there's no turning back.

And once again, if you really wanna explore in this topic, go study the Israelites' journey in the wilderness, that's a preview, a pattern or a paradigm of our spiritual journey in this broken world. In the wilderness, God took care of all of their physiological needs, He fed them with manna and living water from the rock, their clothes weren't worn out and their feet weren't swollen. None of them made it to the Promised Land except Joshua and Caleb, but none of them was deported back to Egypt either, even though they missed their old lives in Egypt. They had sinned and rebelled, God once threatened to wipe them all out, but He still preserved them for Moses's sake. Why they couldn't enter the Promised Land? Primarily because they didn't want to based on the ten spies' terrifying report, so they got what they wished for! They can be brought out of Egypt, but Egypt can't be brought out of them, therefore it become a stumbling block for them, they just couldn't carry their nostalgia for Egypt into the Promised Land. The same applies to us. We can't carry the sins of this world into Christ's millennial kingdom, that can only be accomplished in the next life, for the seed must die first in order to germinate into a plant. And that is our hope and salvation.