Question for non-OSAS believers

[Waggles]

All of you OSAS deniers fail to comprehend this counterintuitive logic in the bible, that what we you don't determine who you are, who you are determines what you do. God's salvation doesn't give you a new set of behaviors, it gives you a new IDENTITY - in Christ, and empowers you by the Holy Spirit to abide in Christ.

And all you OSAS believers betray your failure to comprehend Christianity 1.0.1.
Salvation is dependant on many variables - such as believing and obeying the true gospel once delivered to the saints for starters.
Who exactly is saved ??
And what is acceptable to God over the multitude of gospels and doctrines manufactured by men over the centuries?
What do you mean when you write of "once saved" ??

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues;
18 and in their hands they shall take up serpents, and if they drink aught deadly, it shall in now wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And THEY went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed.

So Jonathan you comply and are in accord with the word of God ??
Are you saved?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

And all you OSAS believers betray your failure to comprehend Christianity 1.0.1.
Salvation is dependant on many variables - such as believing and obeying the true gospel once delivered to the saints for starters.
Who exactly is saved ??
And what is acceptable to God over the multitude of gospels and doctrines manufactured by men over the centuries?
What do you mean when you write of "once saved" ??

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues;
18 and in their hands they shall take up serpents, and if they drink aught deadly, it shall in now wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And THEY went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed.

So Jonathan you comply and are in accord with the word of God ??
Are you saved?

The answer is crystal clear:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of mu hand." John 10:27-28

"What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?" Luke 15:4-7

Salvation is NOT dependent on many variables, it depends on Christ and Christ only. I feel bad for you, brother, that you don't have his blessed assurance. I know he has forever changed my life and healed my traumas. I know he leads me walk in the newness of life. If you have faithfully followed him with a new identity and spiritual fruits, you wouldn't doubt like this.

 

[KingJ]

IF you beeleive in Jesus you beleive he is Lord


maybe I misunderstood what you were actually saying, lets clarify Believing in Jesus as Lord and as God in the flesh, is biblical and is part of salvation-------- agree or disagree?

Correct.

Believing that Jesus existed as human really does not matter, if you do not believe that he was God in the flesh,---------- agree or disagree.

Correct.

Now you need to try and focus a bit on the argument I raise (not trying to be rude).

A faith in Jesus being Lord is a faith given. 1 Cor 12:3 says ''NOBODY'' can call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit.

Now when some come along and teach that the faith that pleases God is ''our ability'' to believe Jesus is Lord, they fail completely. Our ability to believe the unseen is seen in this space has no value to God.

What has value to God, is the heart needed prior to Him giving us a revelation of Jesus. And living by faith that is of value, we learn from Paul, when looking at how he endured sufferings and yet remained faithful in God. Even Abraham, faithfulness in God to the point of sacrificing Isaac.

A Christian lives by faith 'IN' Jesus, IN God.

A faith that God exists is not needed as creation speaks to His existence.
A faith that God is powerful is a tiny mustard seed faith as God can clearly create wonderful things.
A faith that Jesus is Lord is a faith given to us. No mustering up anything is needed. True atheism is an impossibility among true Christians.
A faith in a man called Jesus doing miracles, with many good references, is probably just over a mustard seed as you put faith in a person and their reputation. The faith that Jesus needed from people for Him to heal them.

A faith in Jesus that pleases God can only take place after He gives us a faith of Jesus being Lord.

 

[KingJ]

At least we agree on that statement.


How/Why would I open the door to something that I don't believe exists?

Repentance of sins = Opening the door

Psalm 51:17 My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.

God found David, a man after His heart. 1 Sam 13:14.

Please see my post #53 and comment below.

We don't have the power to repent and overcome our sins without Jesus. If we could, we wouldn't need Jesus. We cannot repent and turn from sin before we believe in Jesus.

That sounds like a Calvinistic belief.

If this were true then God is partial as only those to whom a revelation of Jesus is given, will truly repent.

Please see my thread here it answers this question What is a Christian and how do you become one?

We have no reason, no motivation to turn from sin if we don't believe in God.

There is no such thing as someone who does not believe in God.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Only those who chose to harden their hearts to Him as they love sin.

Psalm 14:1 For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed

 

[KingJ]

Have you ever even considered that perhaps it is you who are mishandling this verse and reading it wrongly? "Forever" in this context, I believe simply means "IN ETERNITY".......not "forever in this life."

You read it like this because you have your non-OSAS glasses on.

You need to grasp that we are not going to be made 'perfect' in heaven anymore then we can be made 'perfect' now.

Human perfection is achieved with repentance of sins. Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out.

We are made a new creation in the now 1 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Many have this idea that in heaven we will be perfect and sinless like God. Jesus corrects all who believe this in Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

We will never be a god. Not now, not in heaven. We are forever perfect ''to' God. Not ever perfect 'like' God.

 

[Dave M]

You need to grasp that we are not going to be made 'perfect' in heaven anymore then we can be made 'perfect' now.

are you saying we will sin in heaven?

 

[KingJ]

And all you OSAS believers betray your failure to comprehend Christianity 1.0.1.
Salvation is dependant on many variables - such as believing and obeying the true gospel once delivered to the saints for starters.

The dependance of salvation is not an OSAS vs non-OSAS debate. We both agree.

The debate is after receiving salvation. OSAS believe you are eternally saved, non-OSAS believe you are not. The word saved is translated to saved, provided you do X, Y and Z a return to works as OT Jews that Paul rebuked in EPh 2:9.

Who exactly is saved ??
And what is acceptable to God over the multitude of gospels and doctrines manufactured by men over the centuries?
What do you mean when you write of "once saved" ??

What is the point you are trying to make, please explain a bit more. I found myself typing a reply assuming the worst, as though as I was replying to an atheist.

Mark 16:15 And he said to them, Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
16 Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved; but who hath disbelieved shall be condemned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that have believed: in my name shall they cast out demons, speak with tongues;
18 and in their hands they shall take up serpents, and if they drink aught deadly, it shall in now wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
20 And THEY went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed.

Not sure why you quoting Mark 16 as defense for non-OSAS. It clearly says there in verse 16 ''Who hath believed and is baptized shall be saved''.

So Jonathan you comply and are in accord with the word of God ??
Are you saved?

We must each judge ourselves for this.

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you unless, of course, you fail the test?

To ensure we are not among those Paul called ''Brethren so called'' 1 Cor 5:11.

 

[KingJ]

are you saying we will sin in heaven?

Yes, please see my thread here Sinning never ends.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

OSAS is true in one sense but false in another.

We have a positional stand before God. Which is based on a perfect sacrifice once and for all. The gift of Salvation and what we are because of it, our standing with God etc. Is perfect and holy and pleasing to God.

I am the righteousness of God—I have right standing with Him—in Jesus Christ - 2 Cor 5:21.

My body is a temple of the Holy Spirit; I belong to Him. 1 Cor 6:19

Our being as righteous as Christ is our position in Christ, not our condition now.

Position has to do with our legal status. When the Bible says that by faith in Christ we are justified (declared not guilty as if we never sinned), it is referring to our position. Our positional standing in Christ is not dependent on us but on Christ and thus forever. Through the Holy Spirit we are sanctified in our position in Christ. Our positional standing is made possible by, secured by, and made perfect by the blood of the Lamb of God.

1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

" whatsoever is born of God cannot sin" ! Really? Why because anything of and from God is perfect.

However we ALL know that we do sin as Christians. So who is wrong? We are perfect and yet we are not.

Why.

Because we have not yet finished the race. Our sanctification is a process. Our experiential walk and our position in Christ are not at the same place. One is perfect they other is being sanctified. It is a process. Our Condition and our Position are two different things.

2 Tim 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

And the opposite is also true.

And that is why our salvation is vulnerable. Not from Gods side - but from ours.

 

[KingJ]

1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

" whatsoever is born of God cannot sin" ! Really? Why because anything of and from God is perfect.


However we ALL know that we do sin as Christians. So who is wrong? We are perfect and yet we are not.

Why.

Because we have not yet finished the race. Our sanctification is a process. Our experiential walk and our position in Christ are not at the same place. One is perfect they other is being sanctified. It is a process. Our Condition and our Position are two different things.

Heb 10:14 says made 'perfect forever those who are being sanctified'. So, disagree. Saying we need to arrive at being fully 'sanctified' before we are perfect would be reading Heb 10:14 backwards.

Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

2 Tim 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

2 Tim 2:21 is speaking to a child of God being effective for work. It is not a teaching on becoming a child of God. You are raising an argument that neither OSAS or non-OSAS believers disagree on.

And the opposite is also true.

And that is why our salvation is vulnerable. Not from Gods side - but from ours.

It is good to hear someone finally acknowledge that God does not make mistakes like a human Num 23:19.

Now you just need to grasp that salvation is a gift from God Eph 2:9. He does not make the mistake of grafting a demon into heaven. Giving salvation to someone whose heart is not right Jer 17:9-12, Psalm 51:17.

Jesus only comes in when we 'properly' open the door to Him Rev 3:20.

Salvation is not vulnerable as it is a gift from God. Justification for salvation is. That is our doing, Salvation is 'not' our doing.

 

[vhusley]

Yes, please see my thread here Sinning never ends.

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 21:27

So there will be sin in heaven?? I’m not sure that lines up with God’s Word. Friend, you are all over the place doctrinally, and so far out there scripturally….your message is confusing. I don’t know how you ever win non-believers over to what you are teaching.

 

[KingJ]

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 21:27

That defines a Christian. A person that truly repents of sin is not detestable Psalm 51:17.

'Repent from sin' is the gospel from God to mankind from day one. God separates repentant sinners from unrepentant sinners.

So there will be sin in heaven?? I’m not sure that lines up with God’s Word. Friend, you are all over the place doctrinally, and so far out there scripturally….your message is confusing. I don’t know how you ever win non-believers over to what you are teaching.

I teach the unsaved to repent. Fullstop.

Non-OSAS teaches them to repent, work, hope and muster up faith in Jesus being Lord as children do faith in Santa Claus.

It is not me who is 'confusing'.
______________________

How about taking a stab at my OP? I tried to make it as simple as possible. But yet, the replies here have not dealt with it. Only BAC has taken a stab at it.

Explain to me how we have free will in heaven if we cannot sin? How do you explain 1 Cor 6:3? If you want to discuss this further, please don't derail this thread but rather come here Sinning never ends.

I harp on all these matters False teaching as they 'misrepresent' God to the lost. There are simple summaries and key scriptures given. I do take offense a little to you saying I am 'confusing' . I am truly not trying to be. I would rather come off a bit confusing and 'not' be guilty of misrepresenting God.

 

[vhusley]

I made no insult, nor did I intend any offense. If you took my response that way my apology, but that ‘s on you friend.
So repentance (to change our mind about sin) is all that’s required?
Then why does God’s Word go to such length to teach us to stay the course? To teach us how to pursue the things of the Spirit? To live Godly?
Why does Paul warn believers to run the race “to completion”?
To continue to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”? Etc., etc…?
Your message just doesn’t line up with what a preponderance of scripture is trying to say to believers.
And the Bible is clear that God cannot tolerate sin and uncleanliness. He will not allow it in His presence. He has proven that time and again. So you disagree?


So, if what you say is true, and God will allow sin to enter heaven (and His holy presence) through our free will (which I believe will be totally subdued in our new glorified bodies IN Christ Jesus btw)…..then God (according to you) is not guaranteeing eternal salvation at all. Meaning anyone born again… dwelling in His holy presence...,can still sin and could thus still be judged again and expelled from His presence. Sun, (from the Greek “hamartia” in scripture) by its very definition means “separation” or “missing the mark” it’s the very thing that separates from God.
Doesn’t this absolutely go against His promises regarding being saved for eternity?

 

[KingJ]

I made no insult, nor did I intend any offense. If you took my response that way my apology, but that ‘s on you friend.
So repentance (to change our mind about sin) is all that’s required?
Then why does God’s Word go to such length to teach us to stay the course? To teach us how to pursue the things of the Spirit? To live Godly?
Why does Paul warn believers to run the race “to completion”?
To continue to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”? Etc., etc…?
Your message just doesn’t line up with what a preponderance of scripture is trying to say to believers.
And the Bible is clear that God cannot tolerate sin and uncleanliness. He will not allow it in His presence. He has proven that time and again. So you disagree?


So, if what you say is true, and God will allow sin to enter heaven (and His holy presence) through our free will (which I believe will be totally subdued in our new glorified bodies IN Christ Jesus btw)…..then God (according to you) is not guaranteeing eternal salvation at all. Meaning anyone born again… dwelling in His holy presence...,can still sin and could thus still be judged again and expelled from His presence. Sun, (from the Greek “hamartia” in scripture) by its very definition means “separation” or “missing the mark” it’s the very thing that separates from God.
Doesn’t this absolutely go against His promises regarding being saved for eternity?

I edited my post a bit, after re-reading I see you were not offensive.

 

[KingJ]

I made no insult, nor did I intend any offense. If you took my response that way my apology, but that ‘s on you friend.
So repentance (to change our mind about sin) is all that’s required?
Then why does God’s Word go to such length to teach us to stay the course? To teach us how to pursue the things of the Spirit? To live Godly?
Why does Paul warn believers to run the race “to completion”?
To continue to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”? Etc., etc…?
Your message just doesn’t line up with what a preponderance of scripture is trying to say to believers.
And the Bible is clear that God cannot tolerate sin and uncleanliness. He will not allow it in His presence. He has proven that time and again. So you disagree?

I have answered these questions multiple times from 4-5 non-OSAS believers here Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross. Feel free to copy paste your post there and I will respond.

This thread has an OP speaking to a specific question. Please lets keep it to that.

So, if what you say is true, and God will allow sin to enter heaven (and His holy presence) through our free will (which I believe will be totally subdued in our new glorified bodies IN Christ Jesus btw)…..then God (according to you) is not guaranteeing eternal salvation at all. Meaning anyone born again… dwelling in His holy presence...,can still sin and could thus still be judged again and expelled from His presence. Sun, (from the Greek “hamartia” in scripture) by its very definition means “separation” or “missing the mark” it’s the very thing that separates from God.

Please post your question here Sinning never ends.

Doesn’t this absolutely go against His promises regarding being saved for eternity?

No, I answer this in my OP here Sinning never ends.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

Heb 10:14 says made 'perfect forever those who are being sanctified'. So, disagree. Saying we need to arrive at being fully 'sanctified' before we are perfect would be reading Heb 10:14 backwards.

Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

That is a positional truth. Our legal standing beforeGod,

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

Heb 10:14 says made 'perfect forever those who are being sanctified'. So, disagree. Saying we need to arrive at being fully 'sanctified' before we are perfect would be reading Heb 10:14 backwards.

Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy



2 Tim 2:21 is speaking to a child of God being effective for work. It is not a teaching on becoming a child of God. You are raising an argument that neither OSAS or non-OSAS believers disagree on.



It is good to hear someone finally acknowledge that God does not make mistakes like a human Num 23:19.

Now you just need to grasp that salvation is a gift from God Eph 2:9. He does not make the mistake of grafting a demon into heaven. Giving salvation to someone whose heart is not right Jer 17:9-12, Psalm 51:17.

Jesus only comes in when we 'properly' open the door to Him Rev 3:20.

Salvation is not vulnerable as it is a gift from God. Justification for salvation is. That is our doing, Salvation is 'not' our doing.

Nope.

You sadly have the cart before the horse.

The Horse so to speak is our: Perfect Salvation as a result of the complete sacrifice of Jesus as atonement for our sin and the legal benefits we derive from it.

Our standing "IN" Christ.

That is a Positional Truth.

Our legal standing before God, Devil and man.

We are made righteous by HIS blood. As if we never sinned.

It is what a victorious Christian should confess, proclaim and declare - by faith.

Our faith is "IN" the finished work of the cross. It is NOT in the Bible, or the Church or even in believing in God. Devils do that. It is in the "FINISHED" work of the Cross. In other words. In our our Salvation. It is our undeserved privilege and for whosoever may - to accept the Gift of Salvation. To be saved by Saving Grace and not by dead works lest any man should boast..

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it
is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

2Cor 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.


Heb 10:14
For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Notice the part:

"being made holy"
.

We are a work in progress. We are running the race - that is not yet finished.

1 Corinthians 9:27 but I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

I Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it.

All set out to run a race. Not all finish the race, some fall out and only one wins it. Paul says make sure you win the race.

We are the Cart that is drawn by the Horse. As it where.

We are not the Horse.

With out the Horse the Cart can't move. Separate the Horse from the Cart and those in the Cart are lost.

Which means OSAS is not scriptural.

How that can happen - is another post

That is a positional truth. Our legal standing beforeGod,

That is a positional truth. Our legal standing beforeGod,