Question for non-OSAS believers

[KingJ]

DEPART or, apostatize. Gr. aphistēmi (S# G868, Luke 2:37; compare S# G646, apostasia, Acts 21:21 g and 2Thess 2:3 g).
Those who support the unqualified doctrine of "Once Saved, Always Saved," or unconditional eternal security, are in direct denial of another Bible doctrine, the doctrine or teaching of the Bible regarding the possibility and danger of apostasy. There is much in the Bible on the subject of apostasy, and it cannot simply be ignored or "swept under the rug."
Those who teach unconditional eternal security need to consider whether the direct statements of Scripture affirm apostasy is possible.
One cannot logically be said to depart, fall away, or apostatize from a faith which one never held in the first place.
Paul is addressing these warnings to believers, not unbelievers.
One must not appeal to an isolated text such as John 10:28, and force it to teach unconditional security, when such a statement in its context is clearly said of those who Jesus declares "hear my voice" and "follow me" (John 10:27).
A text like John 5:24 shows by the use of the present tenses in the Greek that the promise is to those who keep on hearing and believing (John 3:16 note).
In the context of Romans 8, the subject of apostasy is not in view. A text like Rom 8:30 is not addressing the unconditional security of the believer but the certainty of our glorification with Christ, despite how difficult our present circumstances might seem.
In context (Rom 8:17) such confidence relates directly to our eternal inheritance with Christ as co-heirs in his earthly Messianic kingdom, an inheritance which is not rendered less certain because of present trials and tribulations, but more certain, for our reward and position is only increased by our perseverance (+*Matt 5:11; +*Matt 5:12).
One does not apostatize every time a sin is committed. Moral apostasy consists of willfully persisting in known sin (+*1Cor 6:9-11, Heb 10:26, 1John 3:9).
Although one is never said in Scripture to be saved over and over again, or to be born again more than once, this fact does not remove the validity of all the warnings to believers against both moral (+*1Cor 6:9-11) and doctrinal (+*1Cor 15:2) apostasy.
Certainly there would be no point in warning believers against what was impossible (1Thess 3:5 note).
While the Bible emphatically teaches the eternal security of the believer (Matt 24:13 note), and makes the security of salvation in no sense dependent upon good works to stay saved, this security belongs to believers who continue to place their faith in Christ for salvation, not unconditionally to persons who by a single act of faith allegedly "received Christ" but have since departed from the faith doctrinally or morally.
The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury by Jerome H. Smith © 2004
to be continued in next posting ...

The A-Z of apostasy is explained in one verse, 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Just to be crystal clear, please note the 'IF' they had been of us, they 'WOULD' have continued with us.

This is reinforced by 1 Cor 5:11 were Paul says 'brethren so called' and Matt 7:23 where Jesus says 'I never knew you'.

 

[KingJ]

That eternal security is not unconditional is proved
(1) by repeated warnings to believers against doctrinal and moral apostasy;
(2) by the presence of "if" clauses (+Matt 4:9 note. +*2Peter 1:10);

Firstly, being a 'saved, born again Christian' is only possible after the cross. IE All the OT and the gospels do not directly apply to a Christian. Not suggesting we cannot learn from them, we certainly can and must as no word of God is in vein. As such I will ignore all scripture quoted in the OT and the gospels if you are using it to debunk OSAS. A Christian is a new creation in Christ 2 Cor 5:17. A creation that did not exist before.

Prior to the cross, all were justified by their repentance and hatred of what is evil, fullstop. Post cross, the same justification applies, except that now, once we are justified, we are saved and grafted into a blood covenant with God Luke 22:20, Eph 2:13, . IE become a Christian.

2 Pet 1:10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.

Context is needed on all the 'if' clauses. If we take this as ''us having to do things'' to be saved we are insinuating works are needed for salvation. Eph 2:9 is crystal clear that there are no works with salvation. Quoting 2 Pet 1:10 in isolation to Eph 2:9 is like the devil telling Jesus ''it is written, jump and angels will catch you''. Out of context if used to debunk OSAS.

Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. All non-OSAS believers need to understand that the moment you mention 'works' to prove your belief, you lose the debate.

As such 2 Pet 1:10 is much akin to what we find in 1 Cor 5. Paul advises us to remove from church those who are ''brethren so called'' 1 Cor 5:11 that do not do the 'if you do these things'.

(3) Paul’s repeated concern that his labour not be in vain (1Thess 3:5 note);
(4) by the recorded instances of individuals who departed from true faith (+*Heb 10:38);

1 Thess 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

Paul was concerned that the seed he sewed may have fallen on hard ground or the seed itself be corrupted with a different message. Or, for arguments sake, if they were true Christians, that they be deceived and be 'ineffective' Christians as the message they teach could be watered down. Paul was also not God that could judge a persons heart. Please read and meditate on Jer 17:9-12.

Heb 10:38 And, But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.

In 1 Cor 5, we see that Paul calls the one who shrinks back 'brethren so called' 1 Cor 5:11.

(5) because believing or saving faith is always represented in Greek as a continuing active faith, not a single or one time act of faith (John 3:16 note);

Nothing wrong with a continuing in and active faith, if its Christian faith. For an explanation of John 3:16 and 'Christian faith', please see here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

I certainly hope you are not suggesting that our ability to believe the 'unseen is seen' has value with God of the universe. Imagine that.

(6) because Jesus said it is possible to stop believing (+*Luke 8:13).

Moot argument as explained in my first line.

 

[Waggles]

I am finished wasting my time on this, as OSAS has blinded many to the truth of scripture and discipleship.
Fare thee well.

 

[KingJ]

I am finished wasting my time on this, as OSAS has blinded many to the truth of scripture and discipleship.
Fare thee well.

Waggles, this thread was created with the sole purpose of trying to get non-OSAS believers to explain to all how God remains upright and just if non-OSAS is true.

I am truly disappointed that nobody except for @BAC has taken a stab at this.

Our belief is very likely a collation of cherry picked scriptures if it does not paint God in a good light as I explain here How to know when you are cherry picking scripture.

God is the very definition of the words 'good Psalm 136:1, love 1 John 4:8, just Job 34:12 and righteous' Psalm 145:17. We are not and as such can easily misrepresent Him.

 

[B-A-C]

God is the very definition of the words 'good Psalm 136:1, love 1 John 4:8, just Job 34:12 and righteous' Psalm 145:17. We are not and as such can easily misrepresent Him.

Yes, God is all those things. But He is also...

Heb 12:29; for our God is a consuming fire.
Deut 4:24; "For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

2Tim 4:8; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Heb 12:23; to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Psa 7:11; God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day.

Rom 12:19; Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

There is one verse that put me on the path to OSAS. I will give you it and pray it does likewise for you .

Heb 10:14

NIV - For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
ESV - For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
NKJV - For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
KJV - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified

We are made perfect forever by the sacrifice of Jesus, those who go from holy to holy or are sanctifed as some translations like KJV state.

This verse makes clear the fact that it is not the ''holy to holy'' that makes us perfect. It is what takes place after we are born again / made perfect by the sacrifice of Jesus.

We have a positional stand before God. Which is based on a perfect sacrifice once and for all. The gift of Salvation and what we are because of it, our standing with God etc. Is perfect and holy and pleasing to God. But that is our positional standing. In other words as St Paul says " whatsoever is born of God cannot sin" why because anything of and from God is perfect. However we ALL know that we do sin as Christians. So who is wrong. Our living out or being a Christian. We are perfect and yet we are not. Why. Because we have not yet finished the race. Our experiential walk and our position in Christ are not at the same place. One is perfect they other is being sanctified. It is a process. And that is why our salvation is vulnerable. Not from Gods side - but from ours.

 

[Waggles]

Waggles, this thread was created with the sole purpose of trying to get non-OSAS believers to explain to all how God remains upright and just if non-OSAS is true.

I am truly disappointed that nobody except for @BAC has taken a stab at this.

We have proved through scripture that OSAS is false doctrine many times over with excellent content in our postings.,
But alas to no avail has the truth been received by those blinded by a dogged commitment to believe in OSAS over the truth of scripture.
You do not understand what salvation is - what it means to be saved is the crux of the problem.
And as you yourself have confessed salvation is a personal relationship with God, but disciples are capable of letting this relationship lapse, grow distant and yes even divorce.
God is ever faithful to his side of the relationship, but unfortunately many disciples are fickle and depart from their faith and walk with God.
Fare thee well -

 

[Waggles]

Rev 3:1 And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Become watchful, and establish the things remaining, which were about to die: for I have not found thy works perfected before my God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear; and keep it, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come as a thief, and thou shalt in no wise know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; because they are worthy.
5 Who overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 Who hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

 

[KingJ]

Rev 3:1 And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Become watchful, and establish the things remaining, which were about to die: for I have not found thy works perfected before my God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear; and keep it, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come as a thief, and thou shalt in no wise know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; because they are worthy.
5 Who overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 Who hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

This thread was created with the sole purpose of trying to get non-OSAS believers to explain to all how God remains upright and just if non-OSAS is true. Care to take a stab at that?

For a discussion on OSAS / interrogation of your scriptures please come to this thread Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross.

You will see we have already discussed these scriptures in the thread.

 

[Waggles]

Care to take a stab at that?

We have many times over.
But you are not open to learning.

 

[KingJ]

We have a positional stand before God. Which is based on a perfect sacrifice once and for all. The gift of Salvation and what we are because of it, our standing with God etc. Is perfect and holy and pleasing to God. But that is our positional standing. In other words as St Paul says " whatsoever is born of God cannot sin" why because anything of and from God is perfect. However we ALL know that we do sin as Christians. So who is wrong. Our living out or being a Christian. We are perfect and yet we are not. Why. Because we have not yet finished the race. Our experiential walk and our position in Christ are not at the same place. One is perfect they other is being sanctified. It is a process. And that is why our salvation is vulnerable. Not from Gods side - but from ours.

The context of 'cannot sin' is always 'cannot sin to God'. Not literally 'cannot sin'.

Take the scripture I gave as an example Heb 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

IE He has made those who are going from 'holy to holy', perfect forever. Holy to holy, speaks to... Sinning less, repenting sooner, dropping mortal sins and only battling with venial. As Paul explains in Rom 7:15 that he battled with sins. We have to assume he was walking in forgiveness and with a repentant heart, ready for heaven at anytime he would be taken.

Unless you have another idea of what exactly 'holy to holy' is?

This is not hard to understand for anyone who has a child. A child can do no evil that would cause a Father to stop loving them. A human becomes a child of God when they are born again Gal 3:26, 2 Cor 5:17, Rom 6:3-4. We are perfect to God, not perfect like God. Only God is truly good Mark 10:18.

This is why mankind is tied at the hip to Jesus. Jesus + mankind = sinless children. Mankind without Jesus will never be sinless. Even the angels in heaven right now sin. Consider 1 Cor 6:3.

Repentance = Sinless. Nothing else.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
2 Cor 7:10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God 9 Not by works, lest any man should boast.

Jesus is a one-time sacrifice for all.

Titus 2:14 Who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deed.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
1 Cor 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Please also see post number 307 here Non-OSAS belief - undermines the cross. I summarise OSAS and mention key verses on God keeping us saved. We do not keep ourselves saved. There was a teaching a while back that if you don't repent just before you die, you go to eternal hell . I certainly hope no non-OSAS believer believes that. But, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[KingJ]

We have many times over.
But you are not open to learning.

Post number?

As I said, only BAC has taken a stab at it. See his post 25.

 

[KingJ]

Yes, God is all those things. But He is also...

Heb 12:29; for our God is a consuming fire.
Deut 4:24; "For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

2Tim 4:8; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.
Heb 12:23; to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Psa 7:11; God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day.

Rom 12:19; Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Sure, but you are still not explaining the question I am asking.

When God sends Christian A to eternal hell after 50 years of service and Christian B to eternal bliss after 5 hours of service, how is that not a perversion of justice?

Scripture says God does not pervert justice Job 34:12. So I really need you to explain to me how this example of a non-OSAS belief is not a perversion of justice.

 

[B-A-C]

When God sends Christian A to eternal hell after 50 years of service and Christian B to eternal bliss after 5 hours of service, how is that not a perversion of justice?

Scripture says God does not pervert justice Job 34:12. So I really need you to explain to me how this example of a non-OSAS belief is not a perversion of justice.

Who's justice? Yours or God's.

Prov 14:12; There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

If a man was faithful to his wife for 40 years, and then has a affair that lasts a week... it's still adultery.
If a man is never violent for 40 years, and then murders a number of people in 10 minutes, it's still murder.
If a man never steals for 40 years, and then robs a bank in 15 minutes, it's still stealing.

.... what does the length of time have to do with it? You might be my best friend for 40 years, but if you harm my children or my wife intentionally... even just for a few minutes... guess what.

But the thing is... none of us are righteous. All have sinned... and even if you've just sinned only 1 time... (who can honestly say that?) .. you're still just as guilty as if you've sinned a million times.

Rom 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Jas 2:10; For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Oh sure, there are people who say.. I was good for 40 or 50 years.. but were they really? Were they sinless their whole life?
The 50 years of service isn't what saved example A above. The 5 hours of service isn't what saved example B above. It's how did you live your life?
"Good living" isn't enough. No one can live good enough to meet God's standards. No one ever has. ( except Jesus of course ). You can't get saved by "good works" or "seniority of years in service".

First faith is a must. You absolutely have to believe in Jesus. Even if someone was able to live perfectly without sin... ( I don't believe anyone ever has ) you still have to have faith in Jesus.
But second, even though you say you believe in Jesus... you have to live like it. I'm not saying you have to be perfect. We are allowed to stumble sometimes.

Prov 24:16; For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.

But we are not allowed to practice sin. Live in it, make it a habitual lifestyle. We cannot continue in willful sin. We have to repent, change our priorities, change our lifestyles, change how we
treat people. Change how we love people. We have to love God... but again, repentance isn't enough on it's own. You must have faith to go with it.

Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Rom 2:2; And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1Jn 3:4; Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Notice none of these verses say.. if you've ever done it, you're doomed. No, they say if you're continuing to do it, to practice it, then you are doomed.

1Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

 

[B-A-C]

When God sends Christian A to eternal hell after 50 years of service and Christian B to eternal bliss after 5 hours of service, how is that not a perversion of justice?

It seems to me.. that whenever someone like Solomon or Judas comes up.. OSAS people will say... well they were never saved in the first place.
OK, let's go with that for minute here. That means, no one knows if they are saved right now. You could be living for the Lord, serving Him, even healing people and casting out demons. (The Bible says Judas could do this)
and then, after decades of service. You turn your back on God. You renounce your faith. The only difference between non-OSAS and OSAS here.. is one believes they were saved for a while. The other believes they were
never saved in the first place. But either way... we both agree they aren't saved now.

Oh you might say, well I would never turn my back on Jesus... yeah Peter said that once too. None of us know what tomorrow holds. None of us know what we will say or do over the next 10 years, or a month, or a week,
.. or even tomorrow.

 

[B-A-C]

We are allowed to stumble sometimes.

This is what grace is. Grace covers our weaknesses, our mistakes, our "stumbling".
But grace doesn't cover everything.

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

I'm not saying this is you, but there are some people who say... well we all sin all the time anyway, what difference does it make? We might as well do whatever we want and live however we want. Grace has us covered.

Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2; May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

 

[KingJ]

Who's justice? Yours or God's.

Prov 14:12; There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

If a man was faithful to his wife for 40 years, and then has a affair that lasts a week... it's still adultery.
If a man is never violent for 40 years, and then murders a number of people in 10 minutes, it's still murder.
If a man never steals for 40 years, and then robs a bank in 15 minutes, it's still stealing.

.... what does the length of time have to do with it? You might be my best friend for 40 years, but if you harm my children or my wife intentionally... even just for a few minutes... guess what.

But the thing is... none of us are righteous. All have sinned... and even if you've just sinned only 1 time... (who can honestly say that?) .. you're still just as guilty as if you've sinned a million times.

Rom 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Jas 2:10; For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Oh sure, there are people who say.. I was good for 40 or 50 years.. but were they really? Were they sinless their whole life?
The 50 years of service isn't what saved example A above. The 5 hours of service isn't what saved example B above. It's how did you live your life?
"Good living" isn't enough. No one can live good enough to meet God's standards. No one ever has. ( except Jesus of course ). You can't get saved by "good works" or "seniority of years in service".

First faith is a must. You absolutely have to believe in Jesus. Even if someone was able to live perfectly without sin... ( I don't believe anyone ever has ) you still have to have faith in Jesus.
But second, even though you say you believe in Jesus... you have to live like it. I'm not saying you have to be perfect. We are allowed to stumble sometimes.

Prov 24:16; For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again, But the wicked stumble in time of calamity.

But we are not allowed to practice sin. Live in it, make it a habitual lifestyle. We cannot continue in willful sin. We have to repent, change our priorities, change our lifestyles, change how we
treat people. Change how we love people. We have to love God... but again, repentance isn't enough on it's own. You must have faith to go with it.

Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Rom 2:2; And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1Jn 3:4; Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Notice none of these verses say.. if you've ever done it, you're doomed. No, they say if you're continuing to do it, to practice it, then you are doomed.

1Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Thanks for the stab at the question.

I don't agree with your take on Christianity. 'We must have faith'. 'We must practice righteousness or we will not stay saved'.

I agree that we must practice righteousness or we will not 'be' saved.

You correctly state that we all sin and immediately emphasize the difference between two sinners being the importance of one 1. believing in Jesus and 2. not continuing in sin.

1. You seem to assume our 'human ability' to believe Jesus is 'Lord' carries weight with God. You need to understand that it does not. Us believing Jesus exists carries zero weight with God. There is no 'righteousness imparted to us' for mustering up faith to believe Jesus is Lord. Our ability to believe the unseen is seen carries zero weight with God. A faith in Jesus being Lord is a faith given Rom 12:3. 1 Cor 12:3 is crystal clear that nobody can call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit. Peter received a revelation from above Matt 16:16-17. When we understand that faith to believe Jesus is Lord is a faith given, we ask the question of 'to whom is it given?'. This question leads to an OSAS answer. Which I explain here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

2. I agree 100%. There is a world of difference between one who continues in sin and one who hates sin but still makes 'mistakes' of sin. Rom 12:9 speaks to this. Even Paul says he 'hates' it in Rom 7:15.

My only comments on this are,

A. Do you honestly believe God cannot know who are His? Those that 'truly' hate what is evil? Someone like David. Someone like Paul. Someone, not like the devil? If you do not agree with OSAS, you have to believe God may or may not graft some demons back into heaven in the future.

B. You need to try and not focus on the sin but rather the single act of 'righteous dedication'. Bear with me. Consider marriage and your example of adultery. Person A marries, commits adultery after 50 years for a week. Person B does not marry, fornicates and commits adultery with married spouses on numerous occasions. There is still a difference between Person A and B. Person A showed a depth of intent for their spouse when they committed to a Godly marriage, with biblical vows of till death do us part. Their act of adultery is very possibly a 'mistake' and not their hearts intent. We as humans would all agree on this, unless person A continues in adultery of course. Now, person B, we would never say 'mistake of sin' to them. It is because of hearts intent that God gave David exemption to death by the law. As scripture says 'His heart was after God's' Acts 13:22. Likewise, consider Jimmy Swaggart. Mistake of sin. Nobody would say that if he died right after his sin he would be in hell for all eternity. Consider also the cross. One single action at a depth of intent from God, secures our trust and eternal love for Him.

God 'draws a line in the sand' on hearts intent. Many scriptures speak to God judging the heart. Heart intent is something God knows Jer 17:9-12.

OSAS is true because God does simply 'not' give anyone a revelation of Jesus being Lord unless they pass His judgement of their heart. God does not enter a marriage with a demon. God would not, not marry anyone who can lay their life down for Him. Consider Rev 2:10. Martyrdom = eternal bliss. Please read this thread What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

 

[B-A-C]

consider Jimmy Swaggart. Mistake of sin. Nobody would say that if he died right after his sin he would be in hell for all eternity.

Jimmy Swaggert was of the same denomination I am. We went to the same Bible college (a few decades apart).
I can assure you, everyone in my denomination, and at that Bible college considered Jimmy unsaved at that time.
I'm not talking about JSBC (the school he started). I never attended that school.

Since then, he walked in repentance and went through years of rehabilitation, but what if he refused to do so?

 

[KingJ]

That means, no one knows if they are saved right now.

Simply not true. All must and can judge themselves to be in Christ 2 Cor 13:5. I would say that if we can truthfully call Jesus Lord, we are saved.

When we become a Christian, we are given a measure of faith Rom 12:3, we hear God's voice John 10:27, He reaches out to us James 4:8, He makes Himself known to us / the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit Rom 8:16, we get a revelation of Jesus being Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

You could be living for the Lord, serving Him, even healing people and casting out demons. (The Bible says Judas could do this)
and then, after decades of service. You turn your back on God. You renounce your faith. The only difference between non-OSAS and OSAS here.. is one believes they were saved for a while. The other believes they were
never saved in the first place. But either way... we both agree they aren't saved now.

It depends. As I explain above, it is possible for anyone to sin. True Christians included. It is our hatred of sin and desire to not continue in it that separates us. In that specific instance, yes, correct, we both agree they would not likely be saved if they did not show signs of repentance. I say 'likely' because we are 'not' God. Jer 17:9-12 is crystal clear that 'only' God can judge a heart.

Oh you might say, well I would never turn my back on Jesus... yeah Peter said that once too.

Interesting point Peter. He was given a revelation of Jesus in Matt 16:16-17. Much akin to what Christians are given. The A-Z of Peter's time shows us that his heart was correctly judged by God.

Judas did not receive this revelation from above.

None of us know what tomorrow holds. None of us know what we will say or do over the next 10 years, or a month, or a week,
.. or even tomorrow.

Well that is a very bleak view of Christianity. It is very possible for true Christians in a weak flesh to be deceived, forget God, assume and teach the worst. But God will not forget who are His.

Becoming a Christian takes a true depth of intent. God will never forget any that are capable of this. It is the only criteria to be grafted into His family, washed clean and kept.

 

[KingJ]

Jimmy Swaggert was of the same denomination I am. We went to the same Bible college (a few decades apart).
I can assure you, everyone in my denomination, and at that Bible college considered Jimmy unsaved at that time.
I'm not talking about JSBC (the school he started). I never attended that school.

Since then, he walked in repentance and went through years of rehabilitation, but what if he refused to do so?

BAC, if you knew what Jimmy Swaggart has done for God, you will know that someone like him truly loves the Lord and would never ever in a million years be found among the enemies of God in an eternal hell.

Imagine that. Sending a devout cop to prison. God deals with His sheep that go astray in a special manner. He does certainly not deal with them in the same manner as those who were never His sheep.

Despite what you and him were taught and believe, you are both 100% incorrect . God is not a fool.