Salvation

[David777]

Hello again Kinjaffa.

Well let's get down to business.

You said,

"The single most important question anyone will ever as you as a believer is, "What must I do to be saved". Shouldn't we reply the same exact way Yeshua did in Matthew 19? Tell them to follow the laws of YHVH?

So how does the messiah fit into your scheme. Israel were already given the Mosaic Law. Should not the Gentiles just take hold of the Mosaic law. Please explain why the messiah Yeshua was sent in the first place Kinjaffa?

 

[strawberry]

Make no mistake, we are *not* saved by works.

 

[Kinjaffa]

Yeshua came to fulfill the passover prophecy so that eternal death would be conquered for humanity. Why does He love us that much? I have no idea, as far as I know the angels in heaven don't understand it either. As for a "scheme", I have no "scheme". I simply adhere to the words of the Messiah, regardless of what mere mortal men have to say. His words last forever (Matthew 24:35) "Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear."

Let us think about this. Suppose Yeshua was some how wrong, and we will not be judged by our works but instead our eternal destination is based on faith. How then are the countless millions and perhaps billions of people in times past supposed to be eligible for eternal life since many of them never even heard the "Jesus story"? People are still being born in the deepest, darkest, most secluded jungles on earth and they NEVER have a chance to know who Yeshua is. They certainly have no idea that they should have faith in him to receive everlasting life. Do you then suppose that our fair, balanced and loving God of the universe would condemn these people to eternal suffering simply because of they were born in a situation wherein they NEVER had a chance to hear about Yeshua and his sacrifice? I think not. Yeshua says not. Yeshua said that ALL nations will be gathered before him and be judged according to their works (Matthew 25:31-46). Those who do good works receive eternal life, and the evil doers experience eternal torment. This judgement is easy for Him since He knows all of our hearts and what kind of people we are.

 

[strawberry]

(Matthew 7:21-23) Yeshua tells us that there will be many people who have faith, but that do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. These people call Him "Lord, Lord" and they are even capable of performing miracles and casting demons out of people. Surely one cannot do these things genuinely without having faith. What is interesting is that in verse 23 we learn that even these faith-filled miracle workers do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Read Matthew 25 for a further study.

Respectfully, I don't think Jesus (Yeshua) intended that (Matthew 7:21-23) be interpreted as people of faith will be turned away at the pearly gates because they have faith, but lack works. That goes against everything Jesus died for. I think Jesus is talking about people that are not saved that try to suddenly say they were doing all of these good things in the name of God. I think witches and warlocks are a classic example of this. They are puppets of satan capable of performing miracles and casting out demons, *but* satan's miracles are in no way a comparison to God's. I have no doubt, when those folks are being dragged to hell by their 'spirit guide' (demons) they thought were their friendly voice of God, they will be begging "Lord, Lord, I did all of these things in your name", at which point it will be too late for them.

 

[Kinjaffa]

Respectfully, I don't think Jesus (Yeshua) intended that (Matthew 7:21-23) be interpreted as people of faith will be turned away at the pearly gates because they lack faith or works. That goes against everything Jesus died for. I think Jesus is talking about people that are not saved that try to suddenly say they were doing all of these good things in the name of God. I think witches and warlocks are a classic example of this. They are puppets of satan capable of performing miracles and casting out demons, *but* satan's miracles are in no way a comparison to God's. I have no doubt, when those folks are being dragged to hell by their 'spirit guide' (demons) they thought were their friendly voice of God, they will be begging "Lord, Lord, I did all of these things in your name", at which point it will be too late for them. Make no mistake, we are *not* saved by works.

The people Yeshua is referring to are capable of doing miracles in HIS name, not Satans name. I did not say that people would be turned away at the "pearly gates" because they lack faith. I simply stated what is written in (Matthew 7). There will be people who have faith and they do not enter the Kingdom. If we are not saved by works, please read:


In Matthew 7, and 25 the King states that those who do good works will enter eternal life (Matthew 25:34-36). And that those who do not do good works will go to hell (Matthew 25:41-43). He does not mention faith.

In (Matthew 19:16-17), Yeshua tells a rich man that in order to receive eternal life, he must "follow the commandments". Again, no mention of faith.

In (John 5:29) we see that "Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment." Again, faith is not mentioned as a criteria for salvation.

In (Revelation 20:11-13) we see that the dead are judged by their works. Once again, no mention of faith.

In (James 2:14) we see "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?" Notice that he asks a rhetorical question, "Can faith save him?".

In (James 2:17) we see "So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless." Well geeee....that sums it up doesn't it?

In (James 2:24) we see "So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone".

 

[strawberry]

No matter how many good works you do Kinjaffa, you will never be righteous enough for heaven. No, not ever. (Romans 3:10) You are saved by grace through faith my friend, not by works. Jesus set you free from the laws of sin and death. Listen to the Holy Spirit about this and pray for wisdom.

Paul discovered that everytime he willed to do good, he sinned instead. It became a new Law or principle to him. (Romans. 7:21).

What you just stated (above) is not what the scriptures state; it's a misinterpretation. So long as we rely upon God to deliver us through faith in the fact that we died with Christ, we remain above the law of sin and death above that newly discovered law that explained why Paul could not do good. We must continually realize that we need to rely upon God's Spirit to keep us above sin, and not rely upon our weak human power of self effort to stop sinning. (Romans 7:18-25)

(Romans 7:18-25):

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature (Or my flesh). For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature (Or in the flesh) a slave to the law of sin.
​

 

[Kinjaffa]

No matter how many good works you do Kinjaffa, you will never be righteous enough for heaven. No, not ever. (Romans 3:10) You are saved by grace my friend, not by works. Jesus set you free from the laws of sin and death. Listen to the Holy Spirit about this and pray for wisdom.

Paul discovered that everytime he willed to do good, he sinned instead. It became a new Law or principle to him. (Romans. 7:21).

What you just stated (above) is not what the scriptures state; it's a misinterpretation. So long as we rely upon God to deliver us through faith in the fact that we died with Christ, we remain above the law of sin and death above that newly discovered law that explained why Paul could not do good. We must continually realize that we need to rely upon God's Spirit to keep us above sin, and not rely upon our weak human power of self effort to stop sinning. (Romans 7:18-25)

Clearly you did not read the scriptures I linked. Please note a difference here. I refer to the words of Yeshua, you refer to the words of a mortal human being. Do you think our Messiah was joking? Please read:


In Matthew 7, and 25 the King states that those who do good works will enter eternal life (Matthew 25:34-36). And that those who do not do good works will go to hell (Matthew 25:41-43). He does not mention faith.

In (Matthew 19:16-17), Yeshua tells a rich man that in order to receive eternal life, he must "follow the commandments". Again, no mention of faith.

In (John 5:29) we see that "Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment." Again, faith is not mentioned as a criteria for salvation.

In (Revelation 20:11-13) we see that the dead are judged by their works. Once again, no mention of faith.

In (James 2:14) we see "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?" Notice that he asks a rhetorical question, "Can faith save him?".

In (James 2:17) we see "So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless." Well geeee....that sums it up doesn't it?

In (James 2:24) we see "So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone".

 

[strawberry]

I read them and don't agree with your interpretation.

Please read (Romans 7:18-25):

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature (Or my flesh). For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature (Or in the flesh) a slave to the law of sin.

 

[Kinjaffa]

Either you can accept the words of our Messiah as genuine and true. Or you can reject Him and call Him a liar. There is no middle ground. When my King Yeshua said that all people will be judged according to their works, and either receive eternal life or eternal death based on those works, HE MEANT IT!

What is so hard bout interpreting this. (Matthew 25:34-36)

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me."

Or this (John5:29)

"Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment."

Or this (Revelation 20:12-13)

"I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their DEEDS."

Or this (James 2:14)

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?"

Or this (James 2:17)

"So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless."

The words that Yeshua spoke, and that James and John repeated are clear. If you don't get it, pray to the Father that the Holy Spirit will help you understand.

 

[strawberry]

^ Context and the bigger picture. We are saved by grace, not by works; by the blood of Jesus. I have no doubts about that.

 

[Kinjaffa]

^ Context and the bigger picture. We are saved by grace, not by works; by the blood of Jesus. I have no doubts about that.

Context? CONTEXT? Again, just read the words the Messiah spoke! The only context is that mankind will be judged by their works. Why don't you agree with the words of Yeshua? Why would you prefer the words of a mortal man over the words of the Sovereign Lord? You can quote stuff from Romans alllll dayyyy long. But the words of the Messiah last forever, and His words are different than those found in Romans. My advice, read the words of Christ, amen.

 

[strawberry]

^ The Bible is God's word. Be at peace <3...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast," (Ephesians 2:8-9).


:heart3:

 

[jiggyfly]

Context? CONTEXT? Again, just read the words the Messiah spoke! The only context is that mankind will be judged by their works. Why don't you agree with the words of Yeshua? Why would you prefer the words of a mortal man over the words of the Sovereign Lord? You can quote stuff from Romans alllll dayyyy long. But the words of the Messiah last forever, and His words are different than those found in Romans. My advice, read the words of Christ, amen.

"There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can't bear it now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me. John 16:12-14

Your advice is misleading.

 

[David777]

Greetings all.

Hello Strawberry, Kinjaffa did say that he did not accept Pauline theology. Then you quoted from Romans, of course, Kinjaffa will reject that. Good attempt, truthful.

 

[David777]

Dear Kinjaffa.

Thankyou for the reply regarding the messiah.

This is the important part of your reply:

"Yeshua came to fulfill the passover prophecy so that eternal death would be conquered for humanity. Why does He love us that much? I have no idea, as far as I know the angels in heaven don't understand it either."

No doubt you are acquainted with the Old Testament prophecies concerning the messiah. In these rich promises, YHWH descibes precisely the purpose of the messiah. So when you read the letter of Matthew you will understand what the messiah says and does.

This is the critical point Kinjaffa. Are you with me so far Kinjaffa.

Any spelling mistakes so far?

 

[Kinjaffa]

Hello Strawberry, Kinjaffa did say that he did not accept Pauline theology. Then you quoted from Romans, of course, Kinjaffa will reject that. Good attempt, truthful.

I never said "I DO NOT ACCEPT PAULINE THEOLOGY". You are bearing a false testimony sir. I simply said that "I adhere to the words of the Messiah, regardless of what mere mortal men have to say."

Yeshua made it very clear that He will judge us according to our works, and that those who do good works will enter eternal life, and those who do no good works will enter eternal suffering. (Matthew 25)(Revelation 20)

Why are you dodging these scriptures?
Why are you so afraid to acknowledge them?
Do you believe that people who are born deep in the jungles, in the middle of no-where are condemned to eternal suffering because they never knew or had faith in Yeshua?

Here are the words of the Messiah himself regarding works and salvation. Let them sink in.

In Matthew 7, and 25 the King states that those who do good works will enter eternal life (Matthew 25:34-36). And that those who do not do good works will go to hell (Matthew 25:41-43). He does not mention faith.

In (Matthew 19:16-17), Yeshua tells a rich man that in order to receive eternal life, he must "follow the commandments". Again, no mention of faith.

In (John 5:29) we see that "Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment." Again, faith is not mentioned as a criteria for salvation.

In (Revelation 20:11-13) we see that the dead are judged by their works. Once again, no mention of faith.

Also, His half-brother James said the same things:

In (James 2:14) we see "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?" Notice that he asks a rhetorical question, "Can faith save him?".

In (James 2:17) we see "So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless." Well geeee....that sums it up doesn't it?

In (James 2:24) we see "So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone".

 

[David777]

Now the Old Testament.

Let's examine two of these Old Testament prophecies.

Kinjaffa please note that Lord here is YHWH,

"The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name… Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain." Zechariah 14:9, 16-17

Now compare this with

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey. " Zechariah 9:9

It is obvious who the king is Kinjaffa. Are they not one and the same.
The Lord is YHWH, the King is YHWH, Yeshua is King of the Jews, Yeshua is YHWH. The Lord Almighty is the King.

They are the same Kinjaffa.

 

[David777]

Dear Kinjaffa.

You are rejecting the words of men. Paul was a man, hence you reject the apostle to the Gentiles(us). Therefore, you do reject Paul's theology. It is not false, it is only logical.

 

[Kinjaffa]

Let's examine two of these Old Testament prophecies.

Kinjaffa please note that Lord here is YHWH,

"The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name… Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain." Zechariah 14:9, 16-17

Now compare this with

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is just and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey. " Zechariah 9:9

It is obvious who the king is Kinjaffa. Are they not one and the same.
The Lord is YHWH, the King is YHWH, Yeshua is King of the Jews, Yeshua is YHWH. The Lord Almighty is the King.

They are the same Kinjaffa.

I have always believed in the tri-unity of the God of the universe. You are implying that I do not, and it appears yet again you are trying to change the topic of this post. Please stay on the topic of salvation and how people receive it.

--------------------------------
| Father = YHVH |
God = | Son = Yeshua |
| Holy Spirit = Ruach Ha-Kodesh |
---------------------------------
They are all "all together separate" (also the name of a great Christian band). All-in-one yet distinguishable.

 

[David777]

Not avoiding the topic.

Be patient Kinjaffa, I am not avoiding the subject of your thread.
Just establishing the ground work first. I am happy that you accept that YHWH and Yeshua are the same King of Israel. Creator of the Universe and life. Yeshua gave the Law to Moses. Yeshua wants us to follow Him.

I will be back soon, I have to post a letter. Be patient with me Kinjaffa.