Salvation

[jiggyfly]

And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life. "For God loved the world so much that He gave His one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

These are Yeshua's words.

 

[strawberry]

"...One must be saved (spirit-filled) before they are capable of doing any good works." ----- This is simply not true. My great grandfather is 98 years old and the nicest person I have ever known. If anyone in my family needs something, they only have to ask and he will help, even from his wheel chair. Although he has done great works for nearly a full century, he is a devout atheist and therefore not "spirit-filled".

Tis true my dear Kinjaffa. I have no doubts your grandfather is a wonderful man, but like Yeshua states in Matthew, those folks will say "Lord, Lord" look at all of the good things I did and Yeshua will say "I never knew you." Pray for him.

Those are the goats Yeshua refers to. We are the sheep. I've clarified Matthew 25 many times for you. Good works must be a product of the Holy Spirit in you. Men may boast all they want about all the good things they do, but that's in vain, those works will be judged as fruitless and those men as fools. Works done by a faithless (spiritless) man are done in vain. On the surface they might look good to you, but not to Yeshua. Your grandfather might feed Yeshua, just the same as you, but if he doesn't accept the gospel of Yeshua into his heart (also see David777 and jiggyfly's posts), then your grandfather's works are no good. You see that's what Yeshua is judging.

Yeshua loves us and wants us to love in the most purest way through his spirit; through faith, your faithful submission to the Holy Spirit and those are the good works of his sheep. Those are the only truly 'good works'. And that's according to the scriptures you quoted from Matthew, but you also have to read the surrounding scriptures in Matthew for the full context and also let go of pride to allow the Holy Spirit to work in you. And pray.

In summary, the only truly good work is that which is done through Yeshua's spirit in you. Not by might, not by power, but by my spirit says Yeshua. That's what's being judged, but not judgment in the same sense that you seem to be indicating. The goats yes. The sheep no; their names are written in the lambs book of life, so what you seem to say here seems a bit skewed. I'm trying to help you understand that we are nothing without Yeshua; including our works. Please see my previous posts for references to the supporting scripture, which also include the scriptures you quoted Kinjaffa. The scriptures from the mouth of Yeshua himself. Allow the Holy Spirit to guide you.

As for the Amazon, I've already told you my position is "I don't know" for sure. I pray for those folks and trust God.

 

[jiggyfly]

"...One must be saved (spirit-filled) before they are capable of doing any good works." ----- This is simply not true. My great grandfather is 98 years old and the nicest person I have ever known. If anyone in my family needs something, they only have to ask and he will help, even from his wheel chair. Although he has done great works for nearly a full century, he is a devout atheist and therefore not "spirit-filled".

Do you know Jesus?

 

[smitty]

i first woud suggst that you read the entire passage , in matthew yes he said to keep the commanments, but knowing we cannot, have you kept all the conmanments, remmenber if you break one you are guilty of breaking them all,james 2:9-12, also he wanted to no which ones he was to keep, he was trying to pick and chose the ones he wanted, jesus told if he wanted to be perfect give everything away, so have you done that, matthew 7:21-23, lawlessness is practicing sin, matthew 25:31-46, doing the works God desires, obeying God, treating others as we would like to be treated. and in james, he was speaking about faith in action, i am looking for a job, if i have faith in god to get me a job, i must act on my faith by looking for a job. you cannot read a few lines and form a doctrine, you nneed to read more, and study . Jesus was his name that is the name given to his parents by God luke 1:31 i hope you will continue in search of understanding God, and his word, may god continue to bless you and guide you,

 

[Kinjaffa]

You stated:

"You are a professional at dodging questions. I will go ahead and be nice and give you the answer.

People who are born, live and die in remote places, never hearing the testimony of Christ will be judged by their works. Just as we are all going to be judged by our works at the final judgement. Read (Matthew 25)(John 5)(Revelation 20) to understand this.

If you believe that salvation is only achieved through faith, then those people in the remote places were condemned to eternal suffering from the get-go. I've got news for you, that would not be the actions of the loving God that I serve, YHVH. He is holy, and perfect. Full of love and mercy. To believe that He would condemn these remote and uninformed people to eternity in hell simply because they never knew that they needed to have faith to experience eternal life is garbage and unethical. "

Kinjaffa, I did not avoid the question, I answered the question.
You think that I avoided the question. You think that a person is saved by what actions they perform. Why, because you quoted from James, therefore Kinjaffa must be correct.

Did not Yeshua state that no one is good except the Father in Heaven. Yes, He did state this, our nature is corrupt Kinjaffa.
No person can be good enough to pass the perfect test that Yeshua requires us to pass Kinjaffa. That is why we trust Yeshua to get us through. Yeshua stands between His Father and us.

Abraham was not justified by what he did. Abraham believed Yeshua and he was justified, kinjaffa. So was Moses, why? Because they believed what they were told. It is the simple way we operate Kinjaffa. Faith is first, then we act. Scripture does say our works are as filthy rags to Yeshua. We could never stand before Yeshua because of what we have done. Yeshua would destroy us, we are not perfect just forgiven.

My quotes come from both James and the Messiah Yeshua. I must correct you on yet another matter. In the book of James we learn that Abraham was considered righteous because of his WORKS.

(James 2:21-22)

"Was not Abraham our father justified by WORKS when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his WORKS, and by WORKS faith was made perfect? "

Clearly his works were required to become justified/righteous, it's right there in verse 21. And since his works were required for righteousness, the theory that faith alone will save you is void. Again, faith without works is absolutely meaningless. If you don't like it, too bad.

Don't get me wrong, faith is a good thing to have. I certainly have it and plenty to spare. But to claim that faith alone can save someone is not biblical. To prove this, I again point to the people who are born in remote places and never have a chance to learn who the Son is, and that they should have faith in Him. If we use your "faith only" theory, all these people were condemned to eternity in hell simply because of their geographic location and lack of knowledge. That is not what YHVH does. His Son Yeshua will judge everyone who has ever been born, lived and died at the final judgement. (Matthew 25)(John 5)(Revelation 20).

 

[Kinjaffa]

Do you know Jesus?

I know Yeshua, and I believe that He is the Son of God. He was the perfect pesach sacrifice. He was resurrected on the third day and has been building a mansion for his bride ever since.

 

[Kinjaffa]

Tis true my dear Kinjaffa. I have no doubts your grandfather is a wonderful man, but like Yeshua states in Matthew, those folks will say "Lord, Lord" look at all of the good things I did and Yeshua will say "I never knew you." Pray for him.

Those are the goats Yeshua refers to. We are the sheep. I've clarified Matthew 25 many times for you. Good works must be a product of the Holy Spirit in you. Men may boast all they want about all the good things they do, but that's in vain, those works will be judged as fruitless and those men as fools. Works done by a faithless (spiritless) man are done in vain. On the surface they might look good to you, but not to Yeshua. Your grandfather might feed Yeshua, just the same as you, but if he doesn't accept the gospel of Yeshua into his heart (also see David777 and jiggyfly's posts), then your grandfather's works are no good. You see that's what Yeshua is judging.

Yeshua loves us and wants us to love in the most purest way through his spirit; through faith, your faithful submission to the Holy Spirit and those are the good works of his sheep. Those are the only truly 'good works'. And that's according to the scriptures you quoted from Matthew, but you also have to read the surrounding scriptures in Matthew for the full context and also let go of pride to allow the Holy Spirit to work in you. And pray.

In summary, the only truly good work is that which is done through Yeshua's spirit in you. Not by might, not by power, but by my spirit says Yeshua. That's what's being judged, but not judgment in the same sense that you seem to be indicating. The goats yes. The sheep no; their names are written in the lambs book of life, so what you seem to say here seems a bit skewed. I'm trying to help you understand that we are nothing without Yeshua; including our works. Please see my previous posts for references to the supporting scripture, which also include the scriptures you quoted Kinjaffa. The scriptures from the mouth of Yeshua himself. Allow the Holy Spirit to guide you.

As for the Amazon, I've already told you my position is "I don't know" for sure. I pray for those folks and trust God.

You clearly misread Matthew's words. When the King says, "I never knew you"(Matthew 7:22-23) he is referring to those who cast out demons in his name and performed miracles. Remember that Greek word "dunamis" that you were confused about? It means miracles, not works.

Read (Matthew 25:41-46) Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Please notice that Yeshua sends these people to hell. Why? Because they did not feed, clothe or love each other. These people have no works. The King does not say ANYTHING about faith.

I still don't why you say "I don't know" what happens to people that live in places like the Amazon. You seemed so sure that you must have faith in order to experience eternal life. That's what you said, so with that train of thought, all those people will roast in hell for eternity because they had no faith.

 

[jiggyfly]

I know Yeshua, and I believe that He is the Son of God. He was the perfect pesach sacrifice. He was resurrected on the third day and has been building a mansion for his bride ever since.

Just wondered because you also said;

My great grandfather is 98 years old and the nicest person I have ever known.

Your salvation doctrine is quite different than what the scriptures portray. Seems to be void of grace and make Yeshua's sacrifice secondary.

 

[Kinjaffa]

i first woud suggst that you read the entire passage , in matthew yes he said to keep the commanments, but knowing we cannot, have you kept all the conmanments, remmenber if you break one you are guilty of breaking them all,james 2:9-12, also he wanted to no which ones he was to keep, he was trying to pick and chose the ones he wanted, jesus told if he wanted to be perfect give everything away, so have you done that, matthew 7:21-23, lawlessness is practicing sin, matthew 25:31-46, doing the works God desires, obeying God, treating others as we would like to be treated. and in james, he was speaking about faith in action, i am looking for a job, if i have faith in god to get me a job, i must act on my faith by looking for a job. you cannot read a few lines and form a doctrine, you nneed to read more, and study . Jesus was his name that is the name given to his parents by God luke 1:31 i hope you will continue in search of understanding God, and his word, may god continue to bless you and guide you,

His name is not Jesus. That is an English name derived from a Latin name "ieosus". It is not biblical in any way shape or form. His true name is Yeshua. But a rose by any other name smells just as sweet. Just know that I call Him by His true name out of respect and love.

We know from (Matthew 19) that Yeshua said that in order to experience eternal life we should follow the commandments. Obviously it is impossible to follow them perfectly, but don't deliberately miss His point. He wants us to follow His laws as best as we can. After all, He made them for a reason. Our attempts to follow His law will turn out VERY sloppy, I guarantee it. But think about it like this. If you had a child, and your child drew you a sloppy picture and gave it to you as a present, would you reject it? I sure hope not. YHVH will accept our earnest and sincere attempts to follow His law just as a father will accept the ugly stick figure drawings that a child draws. Do they have any real value? No, but to the Father it is precious and acceptable.

 

[Kinjaffa]

Just wondered because you also said;


Your salvation doctrine is quite different than what the scriptures portray. Seems to be void of grace and make Yeshua's sacrifice secondary.

It is not my salvation doctrine. It is what the Lord said. Read (Matthew 25)(John 5)(Revelation 20). Mankind will be judged by their works. If you don't like what Yeshua said, too bad.

Yeshua was the perfect sacrifice. The only way to cleanse humanity so that we could experience eternal life. His sacrifice was not secondary. If His blood had not been shed, it would not matter if people had faith in Him or works. There would be no salvation without the actions He took at Golgotha.

 

[jiggyfly]

It is not my salvation doctrine. It is what the Lord said. Read (Matthew 25)(John 5)(Revelation 20). Mankind will be judged by their works. If you don't like what Yeshua said, too bad.

Yeshua was the perfect sacrifice. The only way to cleanse humanity so that we could experience eternal life. His sacrifice was not secondary. If His blood had not been shed, it would not matter if people had faith in Him or works. There would be no salvation without the actions He took at Golgotha.

Your posts are becoming very contradictory, you say that salvation is by personal works and not by faith,then you say that the Christ's work at the cross is not secondary. You obviously don't think Christ's death was adequate for salvation considering your posts in this thread.

 

[Kinjaffa]

Your posts are becoming very contradictory, you say that salvation is by personal works and not by faith,then you say that the Christ's work at the cross is not secondary. You obviously don't think Christ's death was adequate for salvation considering your posts in this thread.

Haha. Are you a troll? Or are you being serious? It is hard to tell what people are up to sometimes. Nothing I say is contradictory, because everything I say comes straight from the mouth of Yeshua the Messiah.

I will try to say this as simply as I possibly can, with the smallest words that I possibly can.

If Yeshua was never sacrificed and brought back to life, we would all be spiritually dead forever. But, since He did do these things, there is no longer a wall between us and eternal life. That being said, He will judge us by our works at the final judgement. Read (Matthew 25)(John 5)(Revelation 20).

If you honestly believe that salvation is received by faith only, what do you have to say about the countless millions of people who have never had the chance to hear the Story of Yeshua? How is a person supposed to have faith in Christ if they never knew who He was or what He did? Do you believe that YHVH will condemn these people to hell for eternity?

 

[jiggyfly]

Haha. Are you a troll? Or are you being serious? It is hard to tell what people are up to sometimes. Nothing I say is contradictory, because everything I say comes straight from the mouth of Yeshua the Messiah.

I will try to say this as simply as I possibly can, with the smallest words that I possibly can.

If Yeshua was never sacrificed and brought back to life, we would all be spiritually dead forever. But, since He did do these things, there is no longer a wall between us and eternal life. That being said, He will judge us by our works at the final judgement. Read (Matthew 25)(John 5)(Revelation 20).

If you honestly believe that salvation is received by faith only, what do you have to say about the countless millions of people who have never had the chance to hear the Story of Yeshua? How is a person supposed to have faith in Christ if they never knew who He was or what He did? Do you believe that YHVH will condemn these people to hell for eternity?

I am very serious, you obviously do not accept the whole of scripture. Can I ask why your here @ TalkJesus?

 

[strawberry]

You clearly misread Matthew's words. When the King says, "I never knew you"(Matthew 7:22-23) he is referring to those who cast out demons in his name and performed miracles. Remember that Greek word "dunamis" that you were confused about? It means miracles, not works. .

Rawr!

Read (Matthew 25:41-46) Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Please notice that Yeshua sends these people to hell. Why? Because they did not feed, clothe or love each other. These people have no works. The King does not say ANYTHING about faith.

ORLY? Letz step out of the weeds and back on the sidewalk...

:shade: EXHIBIT B:

(Matthew 6:30 KJV) Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

(Matthew 8:10 KJV) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

(Matthew 8:26 KJV) And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

(Matthew 9:2 KJV) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

(Matthew 9:22 KJV) But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

(Matthew 9:29 KJV) Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

(Matthew 14:31 KJV) And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

(Matthew 15:28 KJV) Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

(Matthew 16:8 KJV) Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

(Matthew 17:20 KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

(Matthew 21:21 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

(Matthew 23:23 KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

(Matthew 25:21 KJV) His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

(Mark 2:5 KJV) When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

(Mark 4:40 KJV) And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

(Mark 5:34 KJV) And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.

(Mark 10:52 KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.

(Mark 11:22 KJV) And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

I still don't why you say "I don't know" what happens to people that live in places like the Amazon. You seemed so sure that you must have faith in order to experience eternal life. That's what you said, so with that train of thought, all those people will roast in hell for eternity because they had no faith.

It's a painful thought. *sniffles*

Is your grandfather doing alright? Is that why you started this thread? Do you want us to pray for him? Confess!

:teddybear:

 

[smitty]

i looked at a copy of the 1611 king james bible, and Iesus is Jesus, but i looked a little deeper, to my surpise, Iob-Job, Iohn-john, there is no letter J in the bible at the time, could it be the letter J was not added until later. and i have a copy of the bible, please check it out you self

 

[SpiritLedEd]

If you honestly believe that salvation is received by faith only, what do you have to say about the countless millions of people who have never had the chance to hear the Story of Yeshua? How is a person supposed to have faith in Christ if they never knew who He was or what He did? Do you believe that YHVH will condemn these people to hell for eternity?

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the Old Testament that indicates that any of the patriarchs listed in Hebrews 11 knew anything about the triune (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) nature of God. They only knew God as He had revealed Himself at the time they were alive yet they were saved because they were champions of faith and their faith led to good works: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Eph 2:8-10 NIV); "Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must first believe that He exists and that He rewards those who diligently seek Him." (Heb 11:6 NIV).

SLE

 

[David777]

Hello Strawberry.

Very impressive array of scriptual quotes. Kinjaffa is being very stubborn, questionable motives of course.

 

[AbbysAunt]

Hi Kinjaffa,

I would like to point out as you did more scriptures on what Yeshua said about entering into the kingdom of God.

John3:3-8 Yeshua answered and said to him" Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?
Yeshua answered, Most assuredly I say to you unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of Spirit.

One can keep the commandments all they wish but if you do so without knowing Yeshua as your Lord and Savior then it will do no good to get you into heaven as we see in John and was said by Yeshua Himself. He was our passover Lamb, it was His precious blood that was shed and that covers us and frees us from our sin... When He died and rose again He made a way for those who were lost to come to the Father in Heaven...He is mediator between God the Father and man on earth...without Him there is no getting to the Father in Heaven pure and simple.

John11:25 Yeshua said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me though he may die, he shall live, And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?

Matthew11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father and noone knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

We can follow the commandments and do good works all we want but without Yeshua(Jesus) they mean absolutely nothing and will not gaurentee us eternal life in heaven, but once we become born again and take Yeshua as Lord and Savior of our lives then because we have turned from and died to the old self and begun a new Life in Him want to practice the commandments and laws that Yeshua said we must follow. We do this because we are not who we were before we were saved...we are a new creation and as such want to live for Yeshua the best we can. Taking Jesus as Lord and Savior along with following the laws and putting our faith into action with good works...this all works together, goes hand in hand in attaining our salvation and our eternal life in Heaven with our Lord.

I pray and Hope that Yeshua blesses you richely and keeps you now and always!