Should Christians be Pacifist?

[Hekuran]

I have demonstrated to you that Yashua is the God of the Jewish Scriptures and he called men to go to war over and over. Medic Bravo and I have repeatedly shown you that your theology is not that of Yahova and you insist on teaching a lie. Neither one of us objects to the idea you will never be buddied up in a defensive trench, it is your right to bow down and let them cut your head off but it is not your right to teach such suicidal instruction on a hard-core Christian web site for children to read.

Never though I'd be chided on a Christian website for quoting Jesus. Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer".

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brethren,
I hope this finds you all well.

Always an interesting subject to say the least!

Oh, I have nothing against the pacificist, nor to the one to protecting others with force. All has its appropriate time. (Repeat of Sister Twistie) To the quotes of the early church fathers on non-violence. Well, for those who were stating this position I ask you; if that were so, then to whom were they having this discussion with if all Christians believed as they did? I'm sure you could find early Christians that held the opposing views and have them quoted as well. Then again maybe not! Objectivity is tough brethren.

Oh, and there were Christians in the military of the day as well as attested to from Tombstones with inscriptions stating it as so. So, saying they left the military upon their conversion can be argued against.

I think Brother MedicBravo mentioned the differences in what were levels of being discussed in the use of force, and so my poor rewrite of Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 and short by saying "all has it's appropriate time". This is really appropriate for one to consider. If being persecuted for my faith, I would say no, but if I see an old lady being attacked in the street, I will say yes.

Does this account for all uses of violence??? Of course not. I hate the what if scenarios that many will use to justify this or that, so I won't...except for the one I used above for myself. However, I would ask those who would or would not use force, to seek opposite instances whereby they would not or would do so. Saying I would never, is truly opening the door to having to be faced with the very situation we profess never to do! I pray it be kept from this ever happening to anyone here, for their sake. Regardless of which side you have chosen in this discussion, I truly pray this never is the case for any of you. For those who have taken a life, to those who did not and saw another lose theirs; know the weight it has upon one's spirit, that even in time appears to never grow lighter. (Brotherly Hugs)

Having been in the military for 20 years, I used to pray to never be placed in the position whereby I would need to take a life from another. Yet, knowing deep down inside that it was every present possibility that I might have to preventively speaking, was constant weight upon my heart/spirit. Would I do so to prevent an evil from being done upon another? Would I do what was necessary to stop this evil, even if it cost me my life? God has been gracious to me in this.

Now I wonder, does it count that I might have sent communications that started battles, and cost many lives. Does that count? See one can come up with all kinds of scenarios that put to question one's actions, that will always be wanting. Yes, even the pacifist must answer for their own actions done in Christ Jesus. Meaning to give account of our actions, be they active or inactive. Pray to be kept from ever having to make such decisions.

Still, know regardless of which side of this you fall upon; we are talking to brethren who are washed by the blood of the Lamb. God loves those on both sides of this discussion!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. And the OT on killing/murder. Something to consider. Take a look at the establishment of these cities in the OT: Golan, Ramoth, Bosor and Kedesh, Shechem, Hebron.

 

[MedicBravo]

It's a very reasonable demand to ask for evidence to back up a claim.

It's showing that your claim - made several times on this thread -that the early used violence to defend itself is utterly baseless.

You have nothing to back up what you have said about the early church.

Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer", and all the avaicle evidence indicates that for the first 300 years the communities that believed in him and followed his teaching took his words seriously and literally, and lived in non-violently.

It's NOT baseless.
You're taking one part of a verse to "justify" your opinion.
I'm not the only one who's given multiple verses and simple examples of self-defense.
In fact, when Jesus used violence in chasing the people out of the temple He was defending His Father's house.

1. Proverbs 25:26 "like a muddied spring or polluted well are the righteous who give way to the wicked."
This proverb warns against compromising one’s integrity or yielding to the wicked. It suggests that the righteous should stand firm and defend what is right, even in the face of opposition or adversity. In the context of self-defense, it encourages believers to hold on to their moral principles and not allow themselves to be overcome or influenced by evil.

2. Psalm 82:4 "Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
This verse highlights the responsibility of protecting the vulnerable and weak from harm. It implies a call to action to help those who cannot defend themselves and deliver them from the clutches of the wicked. It aligns with the idea of self-defense as a means of protecting oneself and others from unjust violence or oppression.

3. My favorite regarding self-defense. Luke 22:36 "And He said to them, 'But now, let him who has a money bag take it, and likewise a knapsck; and let him who has no sword sell his garment and buy one."
In this passage, Jesus instructs his disciples to prepare for challenging times ahead by obtaining a sword. While some interpret this metaphorically, it can also be seen as a practical endorsement of self-defense. Jesus acknowledges the need to protect oneself and indicates that having a sword can be a reasonable means of doing so in certain circumstances.

Psalm 144:1 "Praise be to the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle."
This psalm acknowledges God’s role as a trainer for war and battle. It recognizes that God equips believers with the necessary skills and abilities to defend themselves and engage in combat if needed. While the context may extend beyond physical combat, it affirms the concept that self-defense is a valid form of protection.

I could go on. I know we've interacted on here before.
When Jesus returns it will NOT be of peace but of war.
There are many who know a lot more than the both of us on this and know we are commanded to defense self and others.
What authority are you to override any of these experts and Jesus?
Truth is, humans HATE being wrong and you display every signs of narcissism.
Every "claim" or evidence doesn't come from the Bible alone.
Your problem is God and the Bible say the truth in this and you can't say, "Yes, Lord" in response.
If you choose that dark path and manage to get to Heaven I wonder what your answer will be for abandoning your family and loved ones.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Never though I'd be chided on a Christian website for quoting Jesus. Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer".

Paul did so to false teachers over and over... read his 13 letters. All followers of Yashua are called to demand truth in teaching the Gospel.

 

[Hekuran]

It's NOT baseless.
You're taking one part of a verse to "justify" your opinion.
I'm not the only one who's given multiple verses and simple examples of self-defense.
In fact, when Jesus used violence in chasing the people out of the temple He was defending His Father's house.

1. Proverbs 25:26 "like a muddied spring or polluted well are the righteous who give way to the wicked."
This proverb warns against compromising one’s integrity or yielding to the wicked. It suggests that the righteous should stand firm and defend what is right, even in the face of opposition or adversity. In the context of self-defense, it encourages believers to hold on to their moral principles and not allow themselves to be overcome or influenced by evil.

2. Psalm 82:4 "Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."
This verse highlights the responsibility of protecting the vulnerable and weak from harm. It implies a call to action to help those who cannot defend themselves and deliver them from the clutches of the wicked. It aligns with the idea of self-defense as a means of protecting oneself and others from unjust violence or oppression.

3. My favorite regarding self-defense. Luke 22:36 "And He said to them, 'But now, let him who has a money bag take it, and likewise a knapsck; and let him who has no sword sell his garment and buy one."
In this passage, Jesus instructs his disciples to prepare for challenging times ahead by obtaining a sword. While some interpret this metaphorically, it can also be seen as a practical endorsement of self-defense. Jesus acknowledges the need to protect oneself and indicates that having a sword can be a reasonable means of doing so in certain circumstances.

Psalm 144:1 "Praise be to the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle."
This psalm acknowledges God’s role as a trainer for war and battle. It recognizes that God equips believers with the necessary skills and abilities to defend themselves and engage in combat if needed. While the context may extend beyond physical combat, it affirms the concept that self-defense is a valid form of protection.

I could go on. I know we've interacted on here before.
When Jesus returns it will NOT be of peace but of war.
There are many who know a lot more than the both of us on this and know we are commanded to defense self and others.
What authority are you to override any of these experts and Jesus?
Truth is, humans HATE being wrong and you display every signs of narcissism.
Every "claim" or evidence doesn't come from the Bible alone.
Your problem is God and the Bible say the truth in this and you can't say, "Yes, Lord" in response.
If you choose that dark path and manage to get to Heaven I wonder what your answer will be for abandoning your family and loved ones.

If your claim that the early church used violence is not baseless, then show the evidence for it. Do you have any evidence?

 

[Hekuran]

Dear Brethren,
I hope this finds you all well.

Always an interesting subject to say the least!

Oh, I have nothing against the pacificist, nor to the one to protecting others with force. All has its appropriate time. (Repeat of Sister Twistie) To the quotes of the early church fathers on non-violence. Well, for those who were stating this position I ask you; if that were so, then to whom were they having this discussion with if all Christians believed as they did? I'm sure you could find early Christians that held the opposing views and have them quoted as well. Then again maybe not! Objectivity is tough brethren.

Oh, and there were Christians in the military of the day as well as attested to from Tombstones with inscriptions stating it as so. So, saying they left the military upon their conversion can be argued against.

I think Brother MedicBravo mentioned the differences in what were levels of being discussed in the use of force, and so my poor rewrite of Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 and short by saying "all has it's appropriate time". This is really appropriate for one to consider. If being persecuted for my faith, I would say no, but if I see an old lady being attacked in the street, I will say yes.

Does this account for all uses of violence??? Of course not. I hate the what if scenarios that many will use to justify this or that, so I won't...except for the one I used above for myself. However, I would ask those who would or would not use force, to seek opposite instances whereby they would not or would do so. Saying I would never, is truly opening the door to having to be faced with the very situation we profess never to do! I pray it be kept from this ever happening to anyone here, for their sake. Regardless of which side you have chosen in this discussion, I truly pray this never is the case for any of you. For those who have taken a life, to those who did not and saw another lose theirs; know the weight it has upon one's spirit, that even in time appears to never grow lighter. (Brotherly Hugs)

Having been in the military for 20 years, I used to pray to never be placed in the position whereby I would need to take a life from another. Yet, knowing deep down inside that it was every present possibility that I might have to preventively speaking, was constant weight upon my heart/spirit. Would I do so to prevent an evil from being done upon another? Would I do what was necessary to stop this evil, even if it cost me my life? God has been gracious to me in this.

Now I wonder, does it count that I might have sent communications that started battles, and cost many lives. Does that count? See one can come up with all kinds of scenarios that put to question one's actions, that will always be wanting. Yes, even the pacifist must answer for their own actions done in Christ Jesus. Meaning to give account of our actions, be they active or inactive. Pray to be kept from ever having to make such decisions.

Still, know regardless of which side of this you fall upon; we are talking to brethren who are washed by the blood of the Lamb. God loves those on both sides of this discussion!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. And the OT on killing/murder. Something to consider. Take a look at the establishment of these cities in the OT: Golan, Ramoth, Bosor and Kedesh, Shechem, Hebron.

Thanks for this @Christ4Ever. As far as I know, the early church writers were unanimous in rejecting the use of force.

One of the Christian leaders I have met and been most impressed by lives in one of the most violent countries in the world. The murder rate is three times the USA rate and hijeck and kidnap are common.

He's been armed carjacked several times. His response is to say, "you may kill me, and perhaps you will. But before you do, let me tell you about Jesus..."

He's been beaten a few times, and has led men in prayers of repentance a few times.

Astonishing courage.

I've learned (in a lesson violent society) to intervene in violent situations without using force, and I've found that it is generally more effective than going in fists clenched.

And yes, there are occasions where applying Jesus' wisdom and principles in the moment is fraught with difficulty and complexity.

 

[Hekuran]

Paul did so to false teachers over and over... read his 13 letters. All followers of Yashua are called to demand truth in teaching the Gospel.

I can't recall any place in the new testament where Paul chided anyone for quoting Jesus. Which incidents do you have in mind?

 

[Bill Taylor]

I've addressed this several times in the thread already.

Whatever Jesus' meant in the incident when he advised his disciples to get hold of a purse, backpack and sword, it was not to prepare for acts of violence. We know this because when one of the swords was used in an attack on the high priest's servant, Jesus rebuked the attacker and healed the servant.

This is in line with his sermon in the mount teaching, "do not resist an evildoer".

And your teaching is perpetuated by jerking verses out of their context, verses, and chapters, that in reality, do not exist in these original letters. You are a false teacher, teaching a false gospel, and Yashua warned us ti be vigilant and we need to rebuke your teaching by teaching the True Gospel.

 

[Bill Taylor]

I can't recall any place in the new testament where Paul chided anyone for quoting Jesus. Which incidents do you have in mind?

I and Medic Bravo have not chided you for quoting Yashua, we are rebuking you for looking at man imposed numbers that do not exist in the original penning of these letters/records out of their Greater and their Lessor Contexts and creating a False Gospel/lie.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Hekuran,
I'll say once more. If you feel led to kneel down and to allow a known or unknown enemy murder you and or your family and yourself, that is your right. On the other hand, teaching this as one of the Earmarks of a Christian should never be tolerated. As Christ4ever pointed out, Christians are not stamped out with a cookie cutter.

 

[B-A-C]

Eccl 3:1; There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven—
Eccl 3:2; A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
Eccl 3:3; A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up.
Eccl 3:4; A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance.
Eccl 3:5; A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.
Eccl 3:6; A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away.
Eccl 3:7; A time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to be silent and a time to speak.
Eccl 3:8; A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Eccl 3:1; There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven—
Eccl 3:2; A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
Eccl 3:3; A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up.
Eccl 3:4; A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance.
Eccl 3:5; A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.
Eccl 3:6; A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away.
Eccl 3:7; A time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to be silent and a time to speak.
Eccl 3:8; A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.

AMEN!

 

[MedicBravo]

If your claim that the early church used violence is not baseless, then show the evidence for it. Do you have any evidence?

I have. The fact you can't understand it is your problem.
Your acting exactly like Leftoids. The ONLY answer you'll accept is your tiny, narrow definition of evidence.
Ex: Jesus or the Disciples said this or that word for word.
I put a link to one video from someone who not only explains it but the basics of his work as a Detective require it.
Did yo watch it? If so, did you understand it. If you did, are you so hardened that you think your way is right?
The 11 who died for Jesus would NOT have if they hadn't experienced Him themselves.
Eyewitness testimony is the best evidence.
You were given more than enough verses.

 

[Hekuran]

I have. The fact you can't understand it is your problem.
Your acting exactly like Leftoids. The ONLY answer you'll accept is your tiny, narrow definition of evidence.
Ex: Jesus or the Disciples said this or that word for word.
I put a link to one video from someone who not only explains it but the basics of his work as a Detective require it.
Did yo watch it? If so, did you understand it. If you did, are you so hardened that you think your way is right?
The 11 who died for Jesus would NOT have if they hadn't experienced Him themselves.
Eyewitness testimony is the best evidence.
You were given more than enough verses.

I am asking for the evidence backing your claim that the early church used force. I haven't set any defining parameters on what form the evidence might take.

What is it that has persuaded you that the early church used force?

So far, I know only that you believe they must have in order to avoid being eliminated. I reject that as I think it underestimates the power of the gospel.

 

[Hekuran]

Hekuran,
I'll say once more. If you feel led to kneel down and to allow a known or unknown enemy murder you and or your family and yourself, that is your right. On the other hand, teaching this as one of the Earmarks of a Christian should never be tolerated. As Christ4ever pointed out, Christians are not stamped out with a cookie cutter.

I'm not teaching anything, let alone making this as a defining feature of a Christian. I'm just reminding you of Jesus' words.

 

[Hekuran]

And your teaching is perpetuated by jerking verses out of their context, verses, and chapters, that in reality, do not exist in these original letters. You are a false teacher, teaching a false gospel, and Yashua warned us ti be vigilant and we need to rebuke your teaching by teaching the True Gospel.

I'll give you a bit of context to Jesus' statement "do not resist an evildoer".

The phrase is part of Jesus teaching in the Sermon on the Mount, which is the first major section of teaching in Matthew's gospel.

After baptism and temptation in the wilderness, Jesus begins his public ministry "he went throughout all Galilee, eteaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and ghealing every disease and every affliction among the people."

The opening scenes of Matthews gospel draw parallels between Jesus and Moses, through whom God saved his people from pharoah and gave the Torah, and Jesus and King David, the great king of Israel.

They are under Roman occupation, Pax Romana, a peace which is maintained by military might.

So the scene is set for Jesus to complete the work of Moses and king David, overcome the oppression of the Romans, and lead his people to freedom in his victorious kingdom.

The Sermon on the Mount is a renewal of the ancient Torah. Jesus shows how the values and behaviours of his kingdom are different to the kingdoms of the world.

It begins with beatitudes that radically overturn conventional ideas of blessing.

Jesus urges his listeners to address the deep matters of the heart, not just outward action. So foe example he forbids not just adultery, but looking with lust.

On violence and retaliation he says,


You have heard that it was said, y‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But aif anyone bslaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone cforces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and edo not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

“You have heard that it was said, g‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, iLove your enemies and jpray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust


Jesus lived out these principles with perfect integrity. He did not respond with violence when he was arrested, tried under false accusations, whipped, and crucified, died and buried.

On the third date he rose from the dead, showing that the powers of death, chaos, and destruction are defeated.

The apostles spread the news of Jesus resurrection, and, like Jesus, some of them were killed for the message they preached

 

[Bill Taylor]

I'm not teaching anything, let alone making this as a defining feature of a Christian. I'm just reminding you of Jesus' words.

Everything you post on the web is there for any seeker, child, and any other person to read. I think of what my Lord will say to me about my teaching. You have wrapped the teacher's mantle around your body and I do not think you are to stupid to know and the judge already knows what you deny. You do not need to don the square cap to be a teacher.

 

[Hekuran]

Just a reminder @Bill Taylor, it's not my teaching. It's Jesus who said, "do not resist an evildoer".

 

[MedicBravo]

I am asking for the evidence backing your claim that the early church used force. I haven't set any defining parameters on what form the evidence might take.

What is it that has persuaded you that the early church used force?

So far, I know only that you believe they must have in order to avoid being eliminated. I reject that as I think it underestimates the power of the gospel.

It's not a claim.
It's is FACT. I've explained it to you well.
If I were the enemy I'd use this idiotic 100% pacifism to wipe out the early church. EASILY.
You can reject it all you want but it changes nothing.
Self-defense and of others IS in the Bible and you've nitpicked this limited answer that someone else must give or "You're wrong."
You don't understand there are different kinds of evidence.
You do understand the bible in full context.
You've given nothing to your "claim" every single Christian is to be 100% pacificist since the organization of the Church.
God used Christians in just wars and they were on the receiving end at times. If they were to do as you suggest then Christians would've been wiped out sooner rather than later.
Show me evidence where prayer has turned bullets, bombs, swords, poison gas, etc. into magical fairy dust.
Oh no! You can't do that.

 

[Hekuran]

It's not a claim.
It's is FACT. I've explained it to you well.
If I were the enemy I'd use this idiotic 100% pacifism to wipe out the early church. EASILY.
You can reject it all you want but it changes nothing.
Self-defense and of others IS in the Bible and you've nitpicked this limited answer that someone else must give or "You're wrong."
You don't understand there are different kinds of evidence.
You do understand the bible in full context.
You've given nothing to your "claim" every single Christian is to be 100% pacificist since the organization of the Church.
God used Christians in just wars and they were on the receiving end at times. If they were to do as you suggest then Christians would've been wiped out sooner rather than later.
Show me evidence where prayer has turned bullets, bombs, swords, poison gas, etc. into magical fairy dust.
Oh no! You can't do that.

You're getting a bit overheated here.

I'm assuming that if you had any actual evidence of the church of the first three centuries endorsing violence you would have posted it by now, so I'll save your embarrassment and not ask any more.

And please be careful that you know what you are arguing against. For example, I've not made the claim that every single Christian is to be 100% pacifist, nor have I claimed that prayer has turned bombs into magical fairy dust.

All I have been saying in this thread (over, over and over) is that Jesus taught, "do not resist an evildoer".

Maybe it's time to take breather and come back when your thoughts are a bit clearer?

Perhaps - rather than arguing with me - you'd do better to meditate on the wisdom of what Jesus taught, consider why he said it, and how it shapes our understanding of the kingdom of God, and the way we live in a broken and fallen world.