Should Christians be Pacifist?

[B-A-C]

I'm assuming that if you had any actual evidence of the church of the first three centuries endorsing violence you would have posted it by now

What is your assessment of John 18:10; ?

Yes he was rebuked for doing it, but it was violence whether he was rebuked or not.

What is your assessment of Luke 22:36; ?

How about John 2:15; ?

How about Rev 2:21-23; ?

Rev 19:21; ?

If you believe that people who defend themselves are evil, then would you say that you are resisting some evildoers?

First Crusade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just war theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[B-A-C]

Exod 32:25; Now when Moses saw that the people were out of control—for Aaron had let them get out of control to be a derision among their enemies—
Exod 32:26; then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me!" And all the sons of Levi gathered together to him.
Exod 32:27; He said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.'"
Exod 32:28; So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day.

Exod 32:33; The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
Exod 32:34; "But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin."
Exod 32:35; Then the LORD smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.

Mal 3:6; "For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

Heb 13:8; Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Jas 1:17; Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.

 

[Hekuran]

What is your assessment of John 18:10; ?

Yes he was rebuked for doing it, but it was violence whether he was rebuked or not.

What is your assessment of Luke 22:36; ?

How about John 2:15; ?

How about Rev 2:21-23; ?

Rev 19:21; ?

If you believe that people who defend themselves are evil, then would you say that you are resisting some evildoers?

First Crusade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just war theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't believe that people who defend themselves are evil.

I've addressed most of the passages you've mentioned already in this thread. But Revelation 19:21 is worth considering

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”


Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.​

It's the climatic battle of the book of Revelation. But look at who does the fighting. The armies of heaven are dressed in fine white clean linen, hardly the most robust battle gear. If you read back a few verses v8, we get an explanation of the white linen "(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)"

So in the battle scene, Jesus destroys the kings of the world with the sword that comes from his mouth (Do you think is a reference to the Word of God?). The armies of heaven ride behind victoriously, but seem not to be directly engaged in battle.

The Book of Revelation was originally written to help seven churches to live through the persecution and pressure to compromise to the power of Rome. Christians are not commanded to fight or to defend, but to patient endurance.

Revelation 1:9
Revelation 2:3
Revelation 3:10
Revelation 13:10
Revelation 14:12

The story of Revelation is that despite all appearances, the Lamb and the martyrs are victorious over Babylon and the dragon. This is consistent with Jesus's teaching in the Sermon on the Mount: victory is won by endurance, patience, acts of righteousness - not by force.

 

[B-A-C]

So the battle scene, Jesus destroys the kings of the world with the sword that comes from his mouth (Do you think is a reference to the Word of God?).

I don't doubt that the sword here may be metaphorical, spiritual, I won't argue that point.

However, the "kill" is not metaphorical. I also don't believe the birds eating their corpses is metaphorical.

Rev_19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

[Hekuran]

I don't doubt that the sword here may be metaphorical, spiritual, I won't argue that point.

However, the "kill" is not metaphorical. I also don't believe the birds eating their corpses is metaphorical.

Rev_19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Of course. It's Jesus returning in judgement over Babylon and all who belong to her.

But our part is to endure faithfully and leave the rest to God. See Romans 12: 17-19

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ says the Lord.​

 

[Bill Taylor]

I don't believe that people who defend themselves are evil.

I've addressed most of the passages you've mentioned already in this thread. But Revelation 19:21 is worth considering

​

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.​

You intentionally ignore all context. Is that true of all texts you read? (see underlined in red)

 

[Bill Taylor]

Of course. It's Jesus returning in judgement over Babylon and all who belong to her.

But our part is to endure faithfully and leave the rest to God. See Romans 12: 17-19

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ says the Lord.​

All writing has a context that includes all of the expressions. We are to be at peace but serve our Elohim, who is a God of all things, even war when others will not live at peace.

 

[Hekuran]

All writing has a context that includes all of the expressions. We are to be at peace but serve our Elohim, who is a God of all things, even war when others will not live at peace.

That's your personal belief. It's not what the text says.

Paul makes no mention of going to war. Nor, I think, does any New Testament writer.

 

[Hekuran]

Paul makes no mention of going to war. Nor, I think, does any New Testament writer.

On second thoughts, Paul does mention war in 2 Corinthians 10...

I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

 

[MedicBravo]

You're getting a bit overheated here.

I'm assuming that if you had any actual evidence of the church of the first three centuries endorsing violence you would have posted it by now, so I'll save your embarrassment and not ask any more.

And please be careful that you know what you are arguing against. For example, I've not made the claim that every single Christian is to be 100% pacifist, nor have I claimed that prayer has turned bombs into magical fairy dust.

All I have been saying in this thread (over, over and over) is that Jesus taught, "do not resist an evildoer".

Maybe it's time to take breather and come back when your thoughts are a bit clearer?

Perhaps - rather than arguing with me - you'd do better to meditate on the wisdom of what Jesus taught, consider why he said it, and how it shapes our understanding of the kingdom of God, and the way we live in a broken and fallen world.

No. I've no unstable emotions in this.
You don't have evidence that every single Christian at any time or culture has adopted a 100% pacifist mindset.
Be careful? Don't assume I came to this conclusion on my own nor recently.
You ARE holding onto a VERY tiny, weak argument. Those who had first hand experience and were given authority by Jesus have far more cred than anyone else at that time or any since.
You're cherry picking Matthew 5:39. No verse by itself is legit without the rest especially the preceding and post verses IN context.
This is the same flawed argument the Left tries to use against us.
James 4:7 and 1 Peter 5:9 command us to resist the devil (evildoer) and his evil practices and such people (evildoers). These two at a minimum, dispel that verse being the definitive statement.

Again, Jesus discerns between righteous self-defense and revenge. He says not to ignore evil.
Again, a "slap on the cheek" is one thing. A fist fight is quite another as it can lead to being maimed or death.
Regardless of time or culture, some (The 12) had to set an example, while the rest did not and could not.
When Jesus was arrested, unjustly tried, and sentenced (decision by the Jew) He didn't fight back.
Largely b/c, He is the standard which we can never reach but it was also prophesy.
Prophesy has been done for a long time.
Paul in Romans 12:21 "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
You know as well as I no amount of "feelings, hugs, vibes, and kindness" is going to stop people that are too far gone.
MY thoughts? Mine are very clear backed by God, Scripture, and inference or the most logical reason which IS a way of discerning evidence.
I've given verse after verse and have explained it to you in different ways. There are people who know far more than most in this and their work in the Bible.

 

[Hekuran]

Regardless of time or culture, some (The 12) had to set an example, while the rest did not and could not.
When Jesus was arrested, unjustly tried, and sentenced (decision by the Jew) He didn't fight back.

I don't understand the point of setting a standard or being an example if that standard is not to be followed?

Of course Jesus encountered opposition and evil in his daily ministry on earth. He responded to it not by forceful resistance but in overcoming evil with good.

He lived out what he taught: do not resist an evildoer.

Part of the great comission to the disciples is to "teach them [all nations] to obey everything I have commanded you.

 

[Bill Taylor]

That's your personal belief. It's not what the text says.

Paul makes no mention of going to war. Nor, I think, does any New Testament writer.

It is a very disturbing accusation you render there and the truth is that anyone who submits to being owned by Yahovah and Yashua is taught by Ruah in every facet if life. I still have personal opinions about what music is preferred but, opinions about what scripture teaches? No sir, that domain belongs to y Teacher Ruah, a.k.a. the Holy Spirit of Yahivah Jira, my provider. I do not recall you mentioning a personal association with Ruah one, single time. It causes me to fear for your well-being, and I'm sure others here have prayed for you to recieve God's wisdom.

 

[Hekuran]

It is a very disturbing accusation you render there and the truth is that anyone who submits to being owned by Yahovah and Yashua is taught by Ruah in every facet if life. I still have personal opinions about what music is preferred but, opinions about what scripture teaches? No sir, that domain belongs to y Teacher Ruah, a.k.a. the Holy Spirit of Yahivah Jira, my provider. I do not recall you mentioning a personal association with Ruah one, single time. It causes me to fear for your well-being, and I'm sure others here have prayed for you to recieve God's wisdom.

It remains true that you are reading into the text things that are not there.

It is a matter of fact, not of opinion, that Paul makes no mention of war in Romans 12, and he certainly does not make a justification for war.

 

[joestue]

Romans 12

No doubt you will not consider the possibility romans 13 is sarcasm.

So he could get the letter out of prison.

 

[Hekuran]

No doubt you will not consider the possibility romans 13 is sarcasm.

So he could get the letter out of prison.

Absolutely correct. I'm not going to consider that possibility.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brothers,
Something to consider here. As a military man, I of course have a different perspective.
What did Paul say "If at all possible..." Of course it is not always possible. Of course it follows with "do not take revenge". When one goes to the aid of another to protect them, keep in mind that they are not doing so out of revenge, but to help aid another, whether Christian or not.

Here is the flip side for what you have shared Brother @Hekuran
which is actually an excerpt from a book titled: When is right to fight? by Robert A. Morey
A little long, but in the reading of it remember context.

I do not expect this or anything else to change your mind dear brother, but I do have a question for you.

Those who do violence as you see it, were they ever Saved, or do they lose their Salvation?

A link to the excerpt from the aforementioned book:

The Early Church, War and Pacifism By Dr. Robert Morey (Evangelical scholar)

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

I am reminded of the account in the New Testament of the people expecting a 'warrior' type king and Messiah, and the whole mentality was fleshly and carnal. Jesus made it clear that His rule was not like that.

So what was and is His rule?

Perhaps God's Righteousness, not ours.

Why did the faithful accounts found in the writings of the New Testament even mention the 'confusion' of the people [Disciples included] regarding their expectation of a king who would lead Israel into victory in the same manner that historically had been the case - the case, that is, according to little or no faith in the LORD but plenty in their own strength and might and horses and chariots etc.
Do you remember Who delivered Israel over and again?
How often was victory by God's hand and without even the Israelite's doing dot but obeying the Word of the LORD?

What is our victory?

God ordained that we should walk in good works, that, being His righteousness. His 'blueprint' for man was never war.

Does it make even a little sense that in revealing Himself to us in and through Jesus Christ, that He would make known His 'blueprint'?

Until the Day of the Lord, there will be fighting and wars etc, evil all around and faithlessness.

Does that mean we have to engage in worldly fighting to overcome?

What is the word of your testimony and does it bring praise and glory to God and make mention of the Prince of Peace?

The word 'pacifist' invites contention but as Christians do we need to fight and devour one another?

I can't see the word 'pacifist' in the Bible. Can you? So perhaps don't get too zealous or defensive or offended about it. Instead, ask the Lord to increase your faith... remaining unprofitable in the doing.

The Life God has for us and always has, since before we even began, has the 'basic' of love and living to the fullest in what we call love, but let it be God's love [agape] and let us pursue His righteousness in peace with one another and the world.

Post in Peace

Jesus Christ is the Lord


Bless you all ....><>

 

[Hekuran]

Dear Brothers,
Something to consider here. As a military man, I of course have a different perspective.
What did Paul say "If at all possible..." Of course it is not always possible. Of course it follows with "do not take revenge". When one goes to the aid of another to protect them, keep in mind that they are not doing so out of revenge, but to help aid another, whether Christian or not.

Here is the flip side for what you have shared Brother @Hekuran
which is actually an excerpt from a book titled: When is right to fight? by Robert A. Morey
A little long, but in the reading of it remember context.

I do not expect this or anything else to change your mind dear brother, but I do have a question for you.

Those who do violence as you see it, were they ever Saved, or do they lose their Salvation?

A link to the excerpt from the aforementioned book:

The Early Church, War and Pacifism By Dr. Robert Morey (Evangelical scholar)

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

Thank you.

I've not time to read the article now, but will get round to it shorly.

You might be surprised to know that I'm not actually 100% pacifist. Would I be prepared to throw a punch if it was the only way to stop a gunman open fire on the street? Of course I would.

In the same way, I'd be prepared to steal a loaf of bread if that was the only way to keep a family from starvation - even though the 10 commandments are very clear "you shall not steal".

Jesus, the apostles and the early church were in a situation different from ours in that they did not have any worldly power or authority, so limited capacity and responsibility to protect others. That changed when Christianity became an official religion of the empire in the time of Constantine.

Now we have christians in government and police, for example, who are responsible for keeping the population safe from harm. The question of the use of force takes on a different perspective here.

I would maintain that violence has no place in the kingdom of God, that we should be far, far more committed to applying Jesus' teaching and engaging sacrificially and peacefully to overcome evil. But we also live under the authority of worldly powers, and benefit from their protection, which means I find it difficult to be absolutist about pacifism.

 

[Bill Taylor]

It remains true that you are reading into the text things that are not there.

It is a matter of fact, not of opinion, that Paul makes no mention of war in Romans 12, and he certainly does not make a justification for war.

Now you shift your argument.. making Shaul the supreme authority over Yashau and Yahova? You are seeking after the wisdom of this world, ignoring the Wisdom of Yahova and Yashuah as taught by Ruah... the Helper sent by Yashuah because we are not the smartest pickles on the jar?
Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise.
1 Corinthians 3:18

 

[Hekuran]

Now you shift your argument.. making Shaul the supreme authority over Yashau and Yahova? You are seeking after the wisdom of this world, ignoring the Wisdom of Yahova and Yashuah as taught by Ruah... the Helper sent by Yashuah because we are not the smartest pickles on the jar?
Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise.
1 Corinthians 3:18

You're throwing out some pretty odd accusations here: I'm a false teacher, I believe you're destined for hellfire, I'm giving suicidal advice to children, and finally I am putting Paul's authority above God.

None of these is remotely true.

If you want to discuss issues with me, let's discuss based on the things I have actually said. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me; knocking down this series of wild speculations about me is a bit tiresome.