Should Christians be Pacifist?

[Bill Taylor]

Right, we still die. "Spiritual death" is just something Christians have made up to get around what Scriptuee says. There is no mention of "Spiritual death " in Scripture.

Yashua taught more on the Second Death than He did on Heaven.

 

[Hekuran]

The longer I'm on this forum, the more I'm convinced how most Christians are cut loose from the essential beliefs of their own faith.

It's worrying.

Who is doing the discipling here? Why are people who have followed Jesus for a long time full of misguided doctrines? How is there such ignorance of what the Bible actually says?

I'm feeling pretty bleak this morning about the shockingly low quality of debate here, and the general level of ignorance.

 

[B-A-C]

Who is doing the discipling here? Why are people who have followed Jesus for a long time full of misguided doctrines? How is there such ignorance of what the Bible actually says?

Do you have a scripture that says.. "Let them kill you", or "Don't fight back". I know Matthew 5 talks about giving your coat and walking two miles instead of one. But it's doesn't say let them kill you.
Since there are misguided doctrines, and such ignorance. What do you think the Bible says?

There are scriptures that say people will be persecuted and killed, but where are the ones that say don't defend yourself and your family? That is a genuine question.

 

[Hekuran]

Do you have a scripture that says.. "Let them kill you", or "Don't fight back". I know Matthew 5 talks about giving your coat and walking two miles instead of one. But it's doesn't say let them kill you.
Since there are misguided doctrines, and such ignorance. What do you think the Bible says?

There are scriptures that say people will be persecuted and killed, but where are the ones that say don't defend yourself and your family? That is a genuine question.

This is basic stuff of the Sermon on the Mount. It's there in the simplest words possible. Jesus could hardly have made himself clearer: "Do not resist an evildoer".

 

[Bill Taylor]

It's not about death. It's about killing. The part where Gid said, 'thou shalt not'. That part.

The English Translation of that sentence is flawed over time and word usage. Thou shall not murder is a much more date relative translation. I have killed people defending my crew and myself but I have murdered none.

 

[Butch5]

The English Translation of that sentence is flawed over time and word usage. Thou shall not murder is a much more date relative translation. I have killed people defending my crew and myself but I have murdered none.

As I said, history shows otherwise.

 

[Bill Taylor]

There a common sense rule of thumb about reading any book and ut applies to Hermeneutics before anny other matter can e considered; The Bible, unlike most books has, more or less 49 Pen Men (secretaries) but is still authored by only one author, Yahova, a.k.a. Creator God.



Let me be rude and turn your head for a momennt. The best thing Man has done to the Letters from YHWH is to divide these letters into chapters and verses. (It better enables point to point study. The worst thing man has done to the Word is he bike the natural flow of these messages (letters) from YHWH.



Now, back on point. These 66 letters were arrainged in the book and I believe they7 were led by Ruach, a.k.a. the Holy Spirit but there are copies sold with the Letters in the order they were written. (ESV Chronological Bible (TruTone, Brown), Leather, imitation)



The second rule to live by is “Take the stupid verses out of your way and it is not difficult to understand that there is no sentence nor portion of a sentence thhat stands alone. It is often taught that no scripture can be fully nor completely understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it. The Holy Scriptures are of one context from “In the Beginning” of Genesis through the very last “Amen” of The Revelation this book is about man’s salvation.



​

This is basic stuff of the Sermon on the Mount. It's there in the simplest words possible. Jesus could hardly have made himself clearer: "Do not resist an evildoer".

There is a common sense rule of thumb about reading any book and it applies to Hermeneutics before any other matter can be considered; The Bible, unlike most books has, more or less 49 Pen Men (secretaries) but is still authored by only one author, Yahova, a.k.a. Creator God.



Let me be rude and turn your head for a moment. The best thing Man has done to the Letters from YHWH is to divide these letters into chapters and verses. (It better enables point-to-point study. The worst thing man has done to the Word is he broke the natural flow of these messages (letters) from YHWH.



Now, back on point. These 66 letters were arranged in the book and I believe they were led by Ruach, a.k.a. the Holy Spirit but there are copies sold with the Letters in the order they were written. (ESV Chronological Bible (TruTone, Brown), Leather, imitation)



The second rule to live by is “Take the stupid verses out of your way and it is not difficult to understand that there is no sentence nor portion of a sentence that stands alone. It is often taught that no scripture can be fully nor completely understood without the light of all scripture shining on it. The Holy Scriptures are of one context from “In the Beginning” of Genesis through the very last “Amen” of The Revelation this book is about man’s salvation.



​

 

[Bill Taylor]

As I said, history shows otherwise.

And I have earnestly tried to persuade you to ignore my opinion and yours and to prayerfully depend on Ruah for the very thing He was sent to us for.

 

[Hekuran]

There a common sense rule of thumb about reading any book and ut applies to Hermeneutics before anny other matter can e considered; The Bible, unlike most books has, more or less 49 Pen Men (secretaries) but is still authored by only one author, Yahova, a.k.a. Creator God.



Let me be rude and turn your head for a momennt. The best thing Man has done to the Letters from YHWH is to divide these letters into chapters and verses. (It better enables point to point study. The worst thing man has done to the Word is he bike the natural flow of these messages (letters) from YHWH.



Now, back on point. These 66 letters were arrainged in the book and I believe they7 were led by Ruach, a.k.a. the Holy Spirit but there are copies sold with the Letters in the order they were written. (ESV Chronological Bible (TruTone, Brown), Leather, imitation)



The second rule to live by is “Take the stupid verses out of your way and it is not difficult to understand that there is no sentence nor portion of a sentence thhat stands alone. It is often taught that no scripture can be fully nor completely understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it. The Holy Scriptures are of one context from “In the Beginning” of Genesis through the very last “Amen” of The Revelation this book is about man’s salvation.





There is a common sense rule of thumb about reading any book and it applies to Hermeneutics before any other matter can be considered; The Bible, unlike most books has, more or less 49 Pen Men (secretaries) but is still authored by only one author, Yahova, a.k.a. Creator God.



Let me be rude and turn your head for a moment. The best thing Man has done to the Letters from YHWH is to divide these letters into chapters and verses. (It better enables point-to-point study. The worst thing man has done to the Word is he broke the natural flow of these messages (letters) from YHWH.



Now, back on point. These 66 letters were arranged in the book and I believe they were led by Ruach, a.k.a. the Holy Spirit but there are copies sold with the Letters in the order they were written. (ESV Chronological Bible (TruTone, Brown), Leather, imitation)



The second rule to live by is “Take the stupid verses out of your way and it is not difficult to understand that there is no sentence nor portion of a sentence that stands alone. It is often taught that no scripture can be fully nor completely understood without the light of all scripture shining on it. The Holy Scriptures are of one context from “In the Beginning” of Genesis through the very last “Amen” of The Revelation this book is about man’s salvation.



​

Not quite sure where you're going with this, Bill. Do you trust what Jesus teaches when he says, "Do not resist an evildoer"?

 

[B-A-C]

Do you trust what Jesus teaches when he says, "Do not resist an evildoer"?

Someone suing you, taking your coat, that's a evil doer, someone killing you that's different. If that's the best verse you have, I wouldn't build a doctrine on it.

 

[Hekuran]

Someone suing you, taking your coat, that's a evil doer, someone killing you that's different. If that's the best verse you have, I wouldn't build a doctrine on it.

It's not a verse I have, like a card in a game of poker. It's the consistent witness of scripture. And it's unassailable. Jesus doesn't offer any qualifications or mitigating circumstances: "do not resist an evildoer."

I don't fail to see the irony of people who say they take the Bible literally encounter the Sermon on the Mount and suddenly find all sorts of reasons to be non-literal.

Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer."

 

[Curtis]

Jesus said......

Luke 22:36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

I do not think having a sword was for opening letters from home.

 

[Hekuran]

Jesus said......

Luke 22:36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.

I do not think having a sword was for opening letters from home.

Are you not familiar with the rest of the story?


When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

It's consistent with his earlier teaching " do not resist an evildoer".

 

[Curtis]

Are there any born again people in the Military, or in Law Enforcement?


Seven Facts About Human Governments:

1. They were instituted by God (Gen_9:1-7; Rom_13:1-6; 1Pe_2:13-17).

2. Their purpose was to execute criminals and enforce law and order among people (Rom_13:1-6; 1Pe_2:13-17; Gen_9:6; Isa_11:4-9; Isa_65:20; Dan_2:21; Dan_4:17-25; Dan_5:21).

3. It is the duty of Christians and others to help establish and support human government for the preservation of society and promotion of the highest good of man (Rom_13:1; 1Pe_2:13-17).

4. Governments were instituted to govern by force and to punish, not only local and individual criminals, but also universal and national criminals. This includes execution of war to put down criminal nations as well as criminal individuals (Rom_13:1-5; 1Pe_2:13-17; Dan_2:21; Dan_4:17-25; Dan_5:21).

5. Christians are not to leave popular government up to the ungodly. To neglect good government is to neglect the salvation of souls. Promotion of public and private good is one of the greatest means of saving souls (Rom_13:1-6; 1Ti_1:8-10). Christians should vote and enter public life to promote good government so that the gospel will not be hindered and stamped out. Both reason and experience, as well as the Bible make this obligatory upon all. Since government is necessary for the best good of all, it is the duty of every Christian to help bring about the best government to secure this end.

6. Human governments, therefore, are not founded upon the arbitrary will of God, but upon the needs of humanity in securing their highest good. If in a small family, law and penalties are needed, how much more are they needed in communities, states, and nations. If government needs reforming, then let the Christians bring about such reforms. If they require nothing contrary to God, moral obligation, and the conscience, and if they meet the needs of those governed, they should be perpetuated (Rom_13:1-6).

7. Upon the grounds of the best public interest, it becomes the duty of human governments to use all necessary means to attain this end. It is absurd to believe that rulers have the right to govern and not the right to use the necessary means to carry on good government. Such error or belief causes many Christians to object to the right of capital punishment, the right to deal with mobs, to suppress rebellions, and to make wars on criminal nations. When a person sells himself to destroy the best good of others, it becomes necessary to take him from the society he seeks to destroy. In such cases it becomes necessary to deal with individuals, and nations to enforce law and order for the best good of all. It must be both the right and the duty of government and all its subjects to use every necessary and possible means to suppress rebellion and enforce respect for law and order. Rulers are God’s ministers to execute God’s wrath upon the ungodly and preserve moral law and government for the good of all (Rom_13:1-6; 1Pe_2:13-17).

 

[MedicBravo]

I agree. But we should be aware that Jesus taught an alternative even to self defence.

‘You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.” But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.
‘You have heard that it was said, “You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.” But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.

Matthew 5:38–45

Most of the time, in fact a high majority of the time, the "pacifist" or option isn't going to happen.
There's not enough time.
I have people I love and it is my duty to protect them. Their and my safety is far more important than the evil ones.

 

[Hekuran]

Most of the time, in fact a high majority of the time, the "pacifist" or option isn't going to happen.
There's not enough time.
I have people I love and it is my duty to protect them. Their and my safety is far more important than the evil ones.

Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer".

 

[Hekuran]

Are there any born again people in the Military, or in Law Enforcement?


Seven Facts About Human Governments:

1. They were instituted by God (Gen_9:1-7; Rom_13:1-6; 1Pe_2:13-17).

2. Their purpose was to execute criminals and enforce law and order among people (Rom_13:1-6; 1Pe_2:13-17; Gen_9:6; Isa_11:4-9; Isa_65:20; Dan_2:21; Dan_4:17-25; Dan_5:21).

3. It is the duty of Christians and others to help establish and support human government for the preservation of society and promotion of the highest good of man (Rom_13:1; 1Pe_2:13-17).

4. Governments were instituted to govern by force and to punish, not only local and individual criminals, but also universal and national criminals. This includes execution of war to put down criminal nations as well as criminal individuals (Rom_13:1-5; 1Pe_2:13-17; Dan_2:21; Dan_4:17-25; Dan_5:21).

5. Christians are not to leave popular government up to the ungodly. To neglect good government is to neglect the salvation of souls. Promotion of public and private good is one of the greatest means of saving souls (Rom_13:1-6; 1Ti_1:8-10). Christians should vote and enter public life to promote good government so that the gospel will not be hindered and stamped out. Both reason and experience, as well as the Bible make this obligatory upon all. Since government is necessary for the best good of all, it is the duty of every Christian to help bring about the best government to secure this end.

6. Human governments, therefore, are not founded upon the arbitrary will of God, but upon the needs of humanity in securing their highest good. If in a small family, law and penalties are needed, how much more are they needed in communities, states, and nations. If government needs reforming, then let the Christians bring about such reforms. If they require nothing contrary to God, moral obligation, and the conscience, and if they meet the needs of those governed, they should be perpetuated (Rom_13:1-6).

7. Upon the grounds of the best public interest, it becomes the duty of human governments to use all necessary means to attain this end. It is absurd to believe that rulers have the right to govern and not the right to use the necessary means to carry on good government. Such error or belief causes many Christians to object to the right of capital punishment, the right to deal with mobs, to suppress rebellions, and to make wars on criminal nations. When a person sells himself to destroy the best good of others, it becomes necessary to take him from the society he seeks to destroy. In such cases it becomes necessary to deal with individuals, and nations to enforce law and order for the best good of all. It must be both the right and the duty of government and all its subjects to use every necessary and possible means to suppress rebellion and enforce respect for law and order. Rulers are God’s ministers to execute God’s wrath upon the ungodly and preserve moral law and government for the good of all (Rom_13:1-6; 1Pe_2:13-17).

All natural human reasoning. Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer."

 

[MedicBravo]

Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer".

You're taking one verse out of context.

(38-42) Jesus interprets the law of retribution.​

"“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.”

Mosaic law did teach that. If you got into a fight and you blinded a buy in one eye then by law he could and should blind you in your eye. That is justice. That was made to disdain people from doing harm to one another; to settle disputes without violence. Imagine if such a law was a thing in America today. We'd have a LOT of maimed people.
It's about revenge. It's about patience. It's about petty insults and minor wounds from fights that will HEAL.
Jewish writing say that striking someone with the back of the hand - a severe insult, was punishable by a heavy fine; Mishnak BK 8:6.

It is 100% ABSURD to think Jesus means evil should never be resisted. He demonstrated that it MUST be resisted, i.e. Him turning over the table, chasing people with a whip of cords, and ran them out of the temple. He may not have hit anyone but that IS violence and just violence at that.
Still not convinced? Ok.
If you got into it with someone and they hit you upside the head with a bat, it would not only hurt but probably need severe medical attention. Would you "turn your other cheeck" and let him possibly maim or kill you?
That is by definition absurd and harmful.
There is a clear difference between a "slap on the cheek" and someone trying to murder you or those you care about. If you "think" that doing nothing while you are killed in front of them and them after, that's all on you and is NOT scripture.

 

[Brad Huber]

All natural human reasoning. Jesus said, "do not resist an evildoer."

So if someone was slowly sticking a knife into your stomach, you would just stay still and let him finish the job huh? LOL

 

[Hekuran]

So if someone was slowly sticking a knife into your stomach, you would just stay still and let him finish the job huh? LOL

No. When the crowds tried to kill Jesus early in his ministry, he escaped them. Doing the same is surely legitimate.