Should Christians own guns?

[Hekuran]

Read the context. How could Jesus be numbered with the transgressors without evidence he was one. Would they arrest him for turning the other cheek?

It's a strange passage, one I really don't understand. Clearly Jesus had no intention of the swords to be used to resist arrest. First, he says that two swords is 'enough'. Two swords would not be sufficient to overcome a crowd with clubs and swords. Second, Jesus stops Peter's attack on the high priests servant and heals his ear.

The presence of the swords doesn't seem to play any part in the reason for Jesus' arrest and they are not mentioned in the trial.

Fulfilling the 'numbered with transgressors' prophecy makes better sense, but I don't find it completely satisfying. Surely, being arrested, tried, and crucified with murderers and insurrectionists would fulfill the prophecy equally well?

Whatever, the consistent message of Jesus kingdom throughout the gospel is of non-violence, so we have to find a way to read this passage in a way that fit with everything else Jesus taught.

 

[Dave L]

It's a strange passage, one I really don't understand. Clearly Jesus had no intention of the swords to be used to resist arrest. First, he says that two swords is 'enough'. Two swords would not be sufficient to overcome a crowd with clubs and swords. Second, Jesus stops Peter's attack on the high priests servant and heals his ear.

The presence of the swords doesn't seem to play any part in the reason for Jesus' arrest and they are not mentioned in the trial.

Fulfilling the 'numbered with transgressors' prophecy makes better sense, but I don't find it completely satisfying. Surely, being arrested, tried, and crucified with murderers and insurrectionists would fulfill the prophecy equally well?

Whatever, the consistent message of Jesus kingdom throughout the gospel is of non-violence, so we have to find a way to read this passage in a way that fit with everything else Jesus taught.

He was framed for being a transgressor. The swords (two daggers) in Greek helped accomplish this.

Transgressor = Greek = lawless; outside the law

The context gives this for the reason for his arrest. Read carefully.

“Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.” Luke 22:36–37 (KJV 1900)

 

[Hekuran]

It doesn't quite stack up for me. How does the purse make them transgressors, for example?

And the charges brought before Pilate were claiming to be king, refusal to pay taxes and incitement to riot in Galilee. The swords don't appear to have been mentioned.

Having said that, I don't have a better alternative reading to offer.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Read the context. How could Jesus be numbered with the transgressors without evidence he was one. Would they arrest him for turning the other cheek?

They didn't, The one who condemned Him knew He was INNOCENT, and his "TRANSGRESSION" was BLASPHEMY - which Rome couldn't care less about, but Pilate simply caved to Political pressure from the Sanhedron - who bore the greater GUILT for the murder.

 

[brighthouse98]

I believe it is your call. Remember what is not done in faith is sin.( Rom 14:23) As for me? I say this. It is better to have a gun and not need it,then to need one and not have it! LOL

 

[Dave L]

They didn't, The one who condemned Him knew He was INNOCENT, and his "TRANSGRESSION" was BLASPHEMY - which Rome couldn't care less about, but Pilate simply caved to Political pressure from the Sanhedron - who bore the greater GUILT for the murder.

Are you suggesting Jesus did not fulfil prophecy being numbered with the transgressors? Do you think Peter attacking and severing Malchus' ear with his sword might have convinced them he was a transgressor?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Are you suggesting Jesus did not fulfil prophecy being numbered with the transgressors? Do you think Peter attacking and severing Malchus' ear with his sword might have convinced them he was a transgressor?

That had nothing to do with anything. Since Jesus was a BLASPHEMER (to the Sanhedron), and a "political problem" to the Romans, naturally He was "Counted as a transgressor". CURSD was ANYBODY who hung on a cross.

 

[Dave L]

That had nothing to do with anything. Since Jesus was a BLASPHEMER (to the Sanhedron), and a "political problem" to the Romans, naturally He was "Counted as a transgressor". CURSD was ANYBODY who hung on a cross.

Peter attacked Malchus with his sword and cut off his ear = he was a transgressor just a the prophet said Jesus would be numbered among. How do you think guns fit into our calling to love enemies?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Peter attacked Malchus with his sword and cut off his ear = he was a transgressor just a the prophet said Jesus would be numbered among. How do you think guns fit into our calling to love enemies?

They fit just as well as Swords.

 

[Dave L]

They fit just as well as Swords.

What's your point? It got Jesus framed for being a transgressor to fulfill prophecy. Peter was a transgressor even if Jesus wasn't. All part of God's plan.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What's your point? It got Jesus framed for being a transgressor to fulfill prophecy. Peter was a transgressor even if Jesus wasn't. All part of God's plan.

That Jesus wasn't "Framed for being a transgressor", as you'd know if you ever read the Bible. To the Jews, He was a BLASPHEMER, and to the Romans he was just a "political problem". There's no indication that any of 'em even KNEW about Peter's sword work (outside of malchus).

 

[Dave L]

That Jesus wasn't "Framed for being a transgressor", as you'd know if you ever read the Bible. To the Jews, He was a BLASPHEMER, and to the Romans he was just a "political problem". There's no indication that any of 'em even KNEW about Peter's sword work (outside of malchus).

“Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, And he shall divide the spoil with the strong; Because he hath poured out his soul unto death: And he was numbered with the transgressors; And he bare the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.” Isaiah 53:12 (KJV 1900)

 

[Brad Huber]

That Jesus wasn't "Framed for being a transgressor", as you'd know if you ever read the Bible. To the Jews, He was a BLASPHEMER, and to the Romans he was just a "political problem". There's no indication that any of 'em even KNEW about Peter's sword work (outside of malchus).

A transgressor is any sin, not just cutting the ear off someone thats about to kill your master.

 

[Hekuran]

Jesus did link the swords with fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy. See Luke 22


Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you out to preach the Good News and you did not have money, a traveler’s bag, or an extra pair of sandals, did you need anything?”

“No,” they replied.

“But now,” he said, “take your money and a traveler’s bag. And if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one! For the time has come for this prophecy about me to be fulfilled: ‘He was counted among the rebels.’

Yes, everything written about me by the prophets will come true.”

“Look, Lord,” they replied, “we have two swords among us.”

“That’s enough,” he said.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

he was numbered with the transgressors;

Which, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with WHETHER or not Jesus actually WAS a "Transgressor" (He wasn't). You seem to be really "Hung Up" on this "Transgressor" stuff.

 

[Christ4Ever]

We talking about guns, but in truth just about anything can be a weapon, and they can be used with deadly intent/force.
Here's a video that is really mislabeled, because if you notice the sign one of the men is holding, and the t-shirts they are wearing you will notice that they appear to be street evangelists. Makes me understand why they were sent out by 2's! However, the point being, after you watch it (just a minute, but only seconds to see the action). Should the man have stopped the young man/child from the violent intent of his actions? I'm kind of interested in how others view what happened.

There are a few denominations that believe that any violence regardless of the circumstances is a no i.e. Quakers, Amish, and I'm sure there are others as well. So, this may very well be a discussion that has no end to it, at least until that day!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Dave L]

Which, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with WHETHER or not Jesus actually WAS a "Transgressor" (He wasn't). You seem to be really "Hung Up" on this "Transgressor" stuff.

Did he fulfill the prophecy? Why suggest he did not when it says he did?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Did he fulfill the prophecy? Why suggest he did not when it says he did?

Of course, but your "Peter and his sword" foolishness has nothing to do with that at all.

 

[Dave L]

Of course, but your "Peter and his sword" foolishness has nothing to do with that at all.

He attacked an innocent person and severed his ear from his head and he is not a transgressor?

 

[34BillionthHumanBeing]

God’s greatest command is love one another. In implementation terms, that means, an individual human being may not initiate the use force against another human being. Think of that as God’s rule of law.

But since Satan runs amok with no checks and balances, then a human being will initiate the use force against another human being and therefore God’s rule of law must execute on behalf and for the benefit of the innocent.

If the use of force is applied against you, then the aggressor forfeits his or her right to live. This means you have the right to self-preservation by any means necessary.

A firearm is merely a type of means.

So, your argument is not really about guns, but rather if a human being has the right to self-preservation if the use of force is applied against him or her.

God created you. Inherit in your creation, you reserve the right to life on earth whilst in the flesh free from fear, coercion, being lied to, being attacked, being stolen from, being cheated, being killed and ad nauseum.

Don’t ever feel guilty, if you find yourself having to preserve your right to life whilst in the flesh on earth.