Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?

[Spockrates]

Here is my dilemma: I know someone who has been asked to forgive. She says she will forgive, but she will never again trust the one she has forgiven, effectively ending the relationship.

Has she really forgiven? If she has, is it only a partial forgiveness? Will trusting the forgiven be a way of fully forgiving?

 

[Strypes]

Here is my dilemma: I know someone who has been asked to forgive. She says she will forgive, but she will never again trust the one she has forgiven, effectively ending the relationship.

Has she really forgiven? If she has, is it only a partial forgiveness? Will trusting the forgiven be a way of fully forgiving?

Once trust has been broken it is near impossible to fully restore. Forgiveness and trust are two separate issues.

I love my daughter. I love her more than any other person on this planet. Yet when she was a teenager she lied to me (it was a big lie) and I defended her just to find out I was wrong as she had lied to me and I had defended a lie.

I have forgiven her but if a similar situation arises I will do more research as her word will not be enough. Sad but true. I trust her 98% but there will always be a bit of doubt. It is a consequence of her prior actions.

It doesn't mean I don't love her or forgive her. It is just that once trust is broken, it can be mended but never fully restored.

I can only speak from my personal experiences especially with boy/girl relationships, when my ex-husband asked for my forgiveness regarding his affair, I forgave him but trust was broken and as a result I took him back (three times) but he never gave up his girl friend and when he was busted the fourth time, I got a lawyer and divorced him. I tried to trust him but he was not worthy of my trust. I forgave him but I would never trust him again.


This lady of whom you speak was asked to forgive and has granted that forgiveness. She says she will never again trust the one she has forgiven effectively ending the relationship. Trusting the one she has forgiven is not a requirement for forgiveness.

The person she has forgiven must face the consequences for breaking her trust which is a trust that has been broken. If he wanted a relationship with her, he shouldn't have broken her trust in the first place. He has proven he is untrustworthy, she would be a fool to trust him again.

There is a scripture that says something like "faithful with a little will be faithful with much".. The opposite is also true.. UNfaithful in little will be UNfaithul with much.

 

[Spockrates]

Once trust has been broken it is near impossible to fully restore. Forgiveness and trust are two separate issues.

I love my daughter. I love her more than any other person on this planet. Yet when she was a teenager she lied to me (it was a big lie) and I defended her just to find out I was wrong as she had lied to me and I had defended a lie.

I have forgiven her but if a similar situation arises I will do more research as her word will not be enough. Sad but true. I trust her 98% but there will always be a bit of doubt. It is a consequence of her prior actions.

It doesn't mean I don't love her or forgive her. It is just that once trust is broken, it can be mended but never fully restored.

I can only speak from my personal experiences especially with boy/girl relationships, when my ex-husband asked for my forgiveness regarding his affair, I forgave him but trust was broken and as a result I took him back (three times) but he never gave up his girl friend and when he was busted the fourth time, I got a lawyer and divorced him. I tried to trust him but he was not worthy of my trust. I forgave him but I would never trust him again.

This lady of whom you speak was asked to forgive and has granted that forgiveness. She says she will never again trust the one she has forgiven effectively ending the relationship. Trusting the one she has forgiven is not a requirement for forgiveness.

The person she has forgiven must face the consequences for breaking her trust which is a trust that has been broken. If he wanted a relationship with her, he shouldn't have broken her trust in the first place. He has proven he is untrustworthy, she would be a fool to trust him again.

There is a scripture that says something like "faithful with a little will be faithful with much".. The opposite is also true.. UNfaithful in little will be UNfaithul with much.

Thanks, Strypes. I have a one son who is addicted to drugs and in rehab, so I might feel a similar pain.

Yes, I'm familiar with the passage of Matthew 25: A boss asks employees to invest his money. Some do, but one does not. So the boss takes the money from the employee who did not invest and gives it to an employee who did invest. He then promotes the employees who did invest and makes them supervisors. (It's a slave-master parable, but similar to a boss-employee example.)

But I wonder if Jesus really meant the story to teach bosses to never ever trust any employee again who makes even one mistake. I think, instead the story was meant to teach employees and others to never give up trying to be trustworthy, even if they sometimes fail.

But if the master in the story is God and the servants in the story are you and I, then I don't think Jesus is saying that if we fail once, God will never trust us again. After all, God loves us both, and Paul tells us:

Love...always trusts.

(1 Corinthians 13:6-7)

So I think, maybe Jesus is saying that if we continue to fail God our entire lives, then after death, we should not be surprised if God does not reward us as well as he rewards others who did not fail him as much as we did. But I don't think he is saying God will never trust those who sin once.

But what are your thoughts?

 

[Strypes]

But what are your thoughts?

What Bible version are you using?

Because I do not see "Love always trusts" in 1 Corinthians 13

ESV
1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

KJV
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

ok it does say "trust" in the NIV in verse 7 " 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

So lets go to the greek...

Greek Interlinear
1Corinthians13:7

panta G3956 a_ Acc Pl n ALL

stegei G4722 vi Pres Act 3 Sg IS-EXCLUDING is-forgoing

panta G3956 a_ Acc Pl n ALL

pisteuei G4100 vi Pres Act 3 Sg IS-BELIEVING

panta G3956 a_ Acc Pl n ALL

elpizei G1679 vi Pres Act 3 Sg IS-EXPECTING

panta G3956 a_ Acc Pl n ALL

hupomenei G5278 vi Pres Act 3 Sg IS-UNDER-REMAINING is-enduring

Ok.. I am not a Greek scholar but none of that seems to translate "trust"



So what do I think?.. Do you really want to know?



You will probably be offended...



I will speak truth to you in as much "Love" as I can muster..


I Think..

I think it is you that needed the lady's forgiveness and she has forgiven you but she no longer trust you because of what ever it was you did to need forgiveness.

You want to pretend it never happened but it did.

You want to go back to the way you two were before you did what you did and she can't because what you did broke trust beyond repair.

She has forgiven you but no longer trust you.

You refuse to accept her choice to end the relationship and you are desperately trying to find justification for your actions and to place the blame on her.

You run "forgiveness" around in circles hoping that someone here will give you justification\cause\reason for you to placate your ego and make your bad behavior HER Fault.


YOU are failing to show LOVE (1Corinthians 13:5) to her by demanding your way, insisting that she has not fully forgiven you because she doesn't want a relationship with you anymore because she doesn't trust you.

Leave her alone!

Face the fact that you blew it with her and "let it go"!

 

[Strypes]

Forgive yourself. Learn from your mistakes and move on.

 

[Spockrates]

What Bible version are you using?

Because I do not see "Love always trusts" in

ok it does say "trust" in the NIV in verse 7 " 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

So lets go to the greek...

Ok.. I am not a Greek scholar but none of that seems to translate "trust"

Yes, I use the NIV, because I find it a more modern translation, making it less likely for me to misinterpret the text.

What you are saying, I think, is that the NIV does not translate 1 Corinthians 13 correctly. But perhaps you are mistaken. Your translation of choice reads:

Love believes all things.

Mine reads:

Love always trusts.

I think they mean the same thing. If you were to say, "Chris, you can forgive. I believe in you!" You would be saying you trust me to find the resolve to forgive. This you believe about me. If you truly love me, you would believe all good things about me, giving me the benefit of the doubt, so to speak.

But if you don't believe love is trust, please explain why. Please provide a biblical passage that says it never is loving to believe in someone. Or give me some other good reason to accept what you say is true. If what you say is true, I trust you will. For I believe in you, Strypes.

 

[Strypes]

Psalm 118:8

NIV

"It is better to take refuge in the Lord
than to trust in humans."

 

[Strypes]

There is an amazing story in the 13 th chapter of 1st Kings. It is a story about a man that was called by God and given specific instructions. He was a prophet in Judah. God told him to go to the king of Israel and give him a message (not a good one). While he was on this mission for God, he was not to eat anything (at all). He knew what God said and he did what God said and was on his way home When......


the Prophet from ISRAEL sent his folks to the prophet from JUDAH on the road and said...

"18 Then the old prophet from Bethel said to him, "I, too, am a prophet just like you, and at the Lord's command an angel told me to take you home with me and offer you my hospitality." But the old prophet was lying."

Very Interesting story.. I encourage you to read the rest of it.


The Just of this story to me is that when you hear from God and you KNOW it was God, don't let anyone, even if they say they "HEARD FROM GOD" distract you from what you ALREADY KNOW God said. If God changes his instructions ... He will tell you himself!

For the Lion waits....


Be careful who you trust

 

[Travis]

To give my opinion on the original question at hand.

Should I always forgive....?

I think the answer is no.

That answer could be misconstrued, but that's OK.

There is an amazing story in the 13 th chapter of 1st Kings. It is a story about a man that was called by God and given specific instructions. He was a prophet in Judah. God told him to go to the king of Israel and give him a message (not a good one). While he was on this mission for God, he was not to eat anything (at all). He knew what God said and he did what God said and was on his way home When......


the Prophet from ISRAEL sent his folks to the prophet from JUDAH on the road and said...

"18 Then the old prophet from Bethel said to him, "I, too, am a prophet just like you, and at the Lord's command an angel told me to take you home with me and offer you my hospitality." But the old prophet was lying."

Very Interesting story.. I encourage you to read the rest of it.


The Just of this story to me is that when you hear from God and you KNOW it was God, don't let anyone, even if they say they "HEARD FROM GOD" distract you from what you ALREADY KNOW God said. If God changes his instructions ... He will tell you himself!

For the Lion waits....


Be careful who you trust

That is a scary truth.

 

[Spockrates]

NIV

"It is better to take refuge in the Lord
than to trust in humans."

So when we compare that verse to 1 Corinthians 13, what truth do we glean? It is always loving to trust. But God is the only one who is always trustworthy. I'm thinking Abraham Lincoln was right, when he said:

"You can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

I'm thinking we may apply this to love:

You can love all people some ways, or some people all ways, but you can't love all people all ways.

For some people--perhaps just a few--should never be trusted.

What do you think?

 

[Spockrates]

To give my opinion on the original question at hand.

I think the answer is no.

That answer could be misconstrued, but that's OK.

That is a scary truth.

Thanks for contributing to my search to better understand when and how to forgive, Travis. Under what circumstances would you not forgive?

My thought is you are correct. A police officer who shoots a criminal who is about to harm the officer or others is not loving or forgiving the perpetrator of the crime by doing bodily harm to him. Though he might certainly be loving others. For Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13, "Love...always protects."

 

[Spockrates]

There is an amazing story in the 13 th chapter of 1st Kings. It is a story about a man that was called by God and given specific instructions. He was a prophet in Judah. God told him to go to the king of Israel and give him a message (not a good one). While he was on this mission for God, he was not to eat anything (at all). He knew what God said and he did what God said and was on his way home When......

the Prophet from ISRAEL sent his folks to the prophet from JUDAH on the road and said...

"18 Then the old prophet from Bethel said to him, "I, too, am a prophet just like you, and at the Lord's command an angel told me to take you home with me and offer you my hospitality." But the old prophet was lying."

Very Interesting story.. I encourage you to read the rest of it.

The Just of this story to me is that when you hear from God and you KNOW it was God, don't let anyone, even if they say they "HEARD FROM GOD" distract you from what you ALREADY KNOW God said. If God changes his instructions ... He will tell you himself!

For the Lion waits....

Be careful who you trust

I've spoken to many Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who say much the same thing. They KNOW they've heard from God that what they believe is true. Yet there are many Christians who disagree with them, saying they've heard from God, too. In fact, I've heard good Bible teachers say it is possible for a genuine Christian to sincerely believe she heard from God, yet be sincerely wrong. I think it is possible for me to be deceived even when I believe God spoke to me, Strypes. How about you?

 

[Strypes]

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Spockrates,
I think you are off topic again and should start a different thread to discuss knowing the voice of God.

 

[Spockrates]

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Spockrates,
I think you are off topic again and should start a different thread to discuss knowing the voice of God.

OK, thanks for keeping me on topic. What are your thoughts on this post?

So when we compare that verse to 1 Corinthians 13 what truth do we glean? It is always loving to trust. But God is the only one who is always trustworthy. I'm thinking Abraham Lincoln was right, when he said:

"You can please all of the people some of the time, or some of the people all of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."

I'm thinking we may apply this to love:

You can love all people some ways, or some people all ways, but you can't love all people all ways.

For some people--perhaps just a few--should never be trusted.

What do you think?

 

[Strypes]

Proverbs 29:25
The fear of man lays a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is safe.


Again...

Trust and Forgiveness are two separate issues.

Someone can forgive an offense and still not trust the offender.


You can and should always trust God.

 

[Travis]

Thanks for contributing to my search to better understand when and how to forgive, Travis. Under what circumstances would you not forgive?

My thought is you are correct. A police officer who shoots a criminal who is about to harm the officer or others is not loving or forgiving the perpetrator of the crime by doing bodily harm to him. Though he might certainly be loving others. For Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13, "Love...always protects."

"Under what circumstances would you not forgive? "​

Well, your original question was pretty broad. You didn't say: 'Should I always forgive someone who hurts me?' Or, 'should I always forgive someone for what they have done to me personally?

There are a number of situations where we are in a position of authority, where someone sins against another person (not directly related to us at all), and we are not called to forgive that person, we are called to reprimand and serve justice to that person. For a judge, that can mean physically having someone sentenced to death. I'm glad I don't have to make that kind of decision.

Proverbs 17:15 He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.​

God is completely Just. Without that foundation of justice, there is no real meaning behind what Christ did on the Cross. He doesn't forgive everyone, lest there would not be a single human being ever thrown into the lake of fire. There will be though. That's scary.

If someone sins against me personally, and insofar as I am capable, I intend on forgiving them. Often times seeing God's justice served in a temporal sense can help make that forgiveness easier. But, even if I don't ever see that justice served, it's much better for me to forgive them than not to. At the end of the day, complete justice will be served to every single person who ever lived. Those who are covered with garments of righteousness, washed in the blood of the lamb, get exactly what they deserve too, but only through the grace of Jesus Christ (He took what we deserve, so that we can share in what he deserves). I don't like that bitterness and resentment welling up in my heart that unforgiveness brings with it. It kills love.

Question for you Spockrates:

Was Noah in the right in this situation:

Genesis 9
24 When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said, "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be to his brothers." 26 He also said, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant. 27 May God enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem, and let Canaan be his servant." 28 After the flood Noah lived 350 years. 29 All the days of Noah were 950 years, and he died.​

?

Travis

 

[Spockrates]

"Under what circumstances would you not forgive? "​

Well, your original question was pretty broad. You didn't say: 'Should I always forgive someone who hurts me?' Or, 'should I always forgive someone for what they have done to me personally?

There are a number of situations where we are in a position of authority, where someone sins against another person (not directly related to us at all), and we are not called to forgive that person, we are called to reprimand and serve justice to that person. For a judge, that can mean physically having someone sentenced to death. I'm glad I don't have to make that kind of decision.

He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.​

God is completely Just. Without that foundation of justice, there is no real meaning behind what Christ did on the Cross. He doesn't forgive everyone, lest there would not be a single human being ever thrown into the lake of fire. There will be though. That's scary.

If someone sins against me personally, and insofar as I am capable, I intend on forgiving them. Often times seeing God's justice served in a temporal sense can help make that forgiveness easier. But, even if I don't ever see that justice served, it's much better for me to forgive them than not to. At the end of the day, complete justice will be served to every single person who ever lived. Those who are covered with garments of righteousness, washed in the blood of the lamb, get exactly what they deserve too, but only through the grace of Jesus Christ (He took what we deserve, so that we can share in what he deserves). I don't like that bitterness and resentment welling up in my heart that unforgiveness brings with it. It kills love.

Would you say, then that for a Christian to be just, she must sometimes not forgive? If that is what you are saying, I think I might agree. For that seems to be what Paul is recommending in .

Question for you Spockrates:

Was Noah in the right in this situation:

24 When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said, "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be to his brothers." 26 He also said, "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant. 27 May God enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem, and let Canaan be his servant." 28 After the flood Noah lived 350 years. 29 All the days of Noah were 950 years, and he died.​

?

Travis

I'd say that if Noah was predicting the future rather than causing it, then he did nothing wrong. Simply saying out loud what God reveals to him, is not a sin, and it's not unforgiving. It's simply speaking the truth about what will be.

 

[Spockrates]

The fear of man lays a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is safe.

Again...

Trust and Forgiveness are two separate issues.

Someone can forgive an offense and still not trust the offender.

You can and should always trust God.

Yeah, I'm still wondering if what you say is true. I think it comes down to what forgiving is, as we discussed earlier. Christians like Travis make some good points that make me think forgiveness is not just what I should feel about someone, but also something I should do for someone. It's OK that you disagree with them. I'm just trying to make up my own mind.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Yes, I agree the Holy Spirit changes hearts and minds, which some say is what repentance is. Though I think that might be only part of what complete repentance is.

So then, it seems God fully and eternally forgives those who meet the requirement of repenting. I suppose, then the next question to answer is this: Should we sometimes forgive others the way God forgives us? Should we require others to repent before we fully forgive them? I wonder if this is what Jesus meant, here:

3 “So watch yourselves. If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

(Luke 17)

What do you think he meant by the words, "if they repent, forgive them"?

I think we err when we couple rebuking those who sin against us with condemning them; rebuking is to be an act of love, not of hate. God hates sin but loves us sinners.

SLE

 

[Travis]

Would you say, then that for a Christian to be just, she must sometimes not forgive? If that is what you are saying, I think I might agree. For that seems to be what Paul is recommending in .

I'd say that if Noah was predicting the future rather than causing it, then he did nothing wrong. Simply saying out loud what God reveals to him, is not a sin, and it's not unforgiving. It's simply speaking the truth about what will be.

1. We are sinful creatures. By nature we are going to screw up the whole knowing where the line is on how we should react to someone else's offenses against us. If we don't forgive someone, when we should have, and hold unforgiveness in our hearts, then there is a price to pay for keeping that there (as an objective reality, not as some theoretical idea). It gives the enemy ground to work. If you are willing to pay the price for harboring that, then you have every right to do so. I'd prefer not to. Understanding the ground rules is important on this subject. But, regardless of whether we understand them perfectly or not, they still apply to us. Everything we do, or don't do has consequences that are determined by the laws the Lord set up a long long time ago.
2. I'm not sure if Noah was just repeating what he had heard from God, or speaking it out of his own will instead. The text doesn't really tell us, unless I missed something I guess. It's interesting to ponder. The scriptures don't really tell us what God thought/thinks about it either. The fact that it is there is significant though, and tells us that it has/will come to pass in my opinion. Whatever that implies :baffle:

Travis