Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?

[Spockrates]

Brighthouse:

The first idea is that forgiveness is a kind of love, and love can never be just a thought. It must always be both thought and action we do to benefit another. Since forgiveness is love, forgiving can never be just a thought. Forgiving must always be both thought and action we do to benefit the one to be forgiven.

The second idea is that forgiveness is not always both thought and action we do to benefit another. Sometimes it is just thought that benefits only ourselves--by removing resentment, anger and desire for revenge and replacing it with tolerance, compassion and desire to benefit the one to be forgiven.

What idea do you think is least likely the truth? (Please think carefully about the two choices and choose only one, or propose a third choice.)

 

[Brighthouse]

LOL Spocrates!!! You are fun to relate to brother!

One of Socrates' friends said having a conversation with him was like going for a swim with an electric eel. But he was glad he did, for without the shock treatment, he would have continued to foolishly believe two opposing ideas were both true!

I like that bro! I believe,what is important is to not only have a view on something,but to also know why you have this view,like my old music teacher once said"Say what you mean,and mean what you say!" To be clear,simple,and to the point! There are two scripture I like to refer to on trusting people.1 Psalm 146:3 and psalm 118:8-9

I in my own life have found this to be most true brother.Whose council would you rather abide in?Man's or Holy Spirit( 1 john 2:27)? LOL Forgiveness is had by all,( by our Jesus!)trust is not! ( proverbs 3:3-8!) And my personal favorite,(Luke 16:10-12) And people cry out to the Lord to have more trust in them? i was a Vice President of operation at a security company( not boasting here,just an example) for about 10 years,I was the head of around 19 sites in and around the Michigan area,my boss was from Ohio,and did not understand the ways here.

I had this manager of a site who had been with the company for ten years,he wished to become a directer of more then one site,but a fellow worker got the job instead of him,who was also a manager,and had only been in the company around 3 years. WHY? I took him into the office and told him to sit down and I would tell him why. For ten years you have been with our company,and in that time, you have done a fine job for us,but the problem is that you are never on time,and had it been up to me,you would have been let go a long time ago!

For you were not faithful in the small tasks assigned to you,you would grumble and make excuse after excuse for the time it took you to preform any task given,this person never complained,he stayed on the task until the task was completed,who would you pick? My Boss took me off of this site, because I would never put up with you being late all the time! You set a very poor example for the rest who had lost there time,because you took your time in such a selfish manner!

After another 3 years, he got to be a boss of more then one site.He learned! Trust is not anything like forgiveness! Forgiveness by Jesus is had by all,but trust is not! Jesus knows our heart, even if we do not wish to look at our own heart!( 2 Chronicles 32:3) "God left him alone only to test him,that HE might KNOW all that was in his own heart!" when we suffer,( not if!)we suffer for a purpose,and if we care enough about why we suffer,we find out as we endure our suffering, the true will of the Lord through this!( heb 10:36)

Some wish to stay babies all there life,i know i did!! LOL( 1 cor 14:20) We will mature the easy way,or the hard way! Make no mistake about this,you have no say in how high you grow,and you do not have anything to say about how you mature either! Except that if you do not mature,then you also cannot be trusted either! And many wish to blame God when it is there own fault! i just ran out of excuses is all!LOL Forgiveness brings us who believe in our Jesus Eternal life,trust brings us the rewards from eternal life!( rev 22:12!) That is the way I see this brother. Your counted on by Jesus, because he knows how great a trust he can put in you! Do you?? This was my question to myself bro.In order to mature we must ask ourselfs tough questions,so that through our Jesus we may receive complete answers!! Blessing all!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Please allow me to rephrase the question, SLE: Did or will Jesus ever fail to forgive, yet commit no sin? For example, when he returns to judge the living and the dead, will he judge some, but forgive others?

+

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross made forgiveness available to all, but only those who genuinely seek God's forgiveness will receive it.

SLE

 

[Chad]

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Jesus' sacrifice on the cross made forgiveness available to all, but only those who genuinely seek God's forgiveness will receive it.

SLE

In agreement

 

[Spockrates]

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Jesus' sacrifice on the cross made forgiveness available to all, but only those who genuinely seek God's forgiveness will receive it.

SLE

Thanks for replying, SLE. Please tell me: The ones who genuinely seek--are they those who sincerely repent and also request forgiveness? Or are they those who request but refuse to repent? Or are they those who neither request nor repent?

 

[Spockrates]

LOL Spocrates!!! You are fun to relate to brother!

I like that bro! I believe,what is important is to not only have a view on something,but to also know why you have this view,like my old music teacher once said"Say what you mean,and mean what you say!" To be clear,simple,and to the point! There are two scripture I like to refer to on trusting people.1 and psalm 118:8-9

I in my own life have found this to be most true brother.Whose council would you rather abide in?Man's or Holy Spirit( 1 john 2:27)?

Man's counsel, but only so far as man's agrees with the Holy Spirit. Still trying to determine what the Holy Spirit's counsel about forgiving means.

LOL Forgiveness is had by all,( by our Jesus!)trust is not! ( proverbs 3:3-8!)

But how can forgiveness be had by all, since those in hell are unforgiven?

And my personal favorite,() And people cry out to the Lord to have more trust in them? i was a Vice President of operation at a security company( not boasting here,just an example) for about 10 years,I was the head of around 19 sites in and around the Michigan area,my boss was from Ohio,and did not understand the ways here.

I had this manager of a site who had been with the company for ten years,he wished to become a directer of more then one site,but a fellow worker got the job instead of him,who was also a manager,and had only been in the company around 3 years. WHY? I took him into the office and told him to sit down and I would tell him why. For ten years you have been with our company,and in that time, you have done a fine job for us,but the problem is that you are never on time,and had it been up to me,you would have been let go a long time ago!

For you were not faithful in the small tasks assigned to you,you would grumble and make excuse after excuse for the time it took you to preform any task given,this person never complained,he stayed on the task until the task was completed,who would you pick? My Boss took me off of this site, because I would never put up with you being late all the time! You set a very poor example for the rest who had lost there time,because you took your time in such a selfish manner!

After another 3 years, he got to be a boss of more then one site.He learned! Trust is not anything like forgiveness! Forgiveness by Jesus is had by all,but trust is not! Jesus knows our heart, even if we do not wish to look at our own heart!( ) "God left him alone only to test him,that HE might KNOW all that was in his own heart!" when we suffer,( not if!)we suffer for a purpose,and if we care enough about why we suffer,we find out as we endure our suffering, the true will of the Lord through this!( heb 10:36)

Some wish to stay babies all there life,i know i did!! LOL( 1 cor 14:20) We will mature the easy way,or the hard way! Make no mistake about this,you have no say in how high you grow,and you do not have anything to say about how you mature either! Except that if you do not mature,then you also cannot be trusted either! And many wish to blame God when it is there own fault! i just ran out of excuses is all!LOL Forgiveness brings us who believe in our Jesus Eternal life,trust brings us the rewards from eternal life!( rev 22:12!) That is the way I see this brother. Your counted on by Jesus, because he knows how great a trust he can put in you! Do you?? This was my question to myself bro.In order to mature we must ask ourselfs tough questions,so that through our Jesus we may receive complete answers!! Blessing all!

So if forgiveness is sometimes restoring a relationship with someone who regains our trust, then we should not always forgive in this way. True?

But if forgiveness is never restoring a relationship with someone who has regained our trust, then there is no need to forgive in this way. In fact, such an act is not forgiving at all! True?

It seems you still need to fully recover from the shock, my friend. The Lord our God is with you! Pray for wisdom, be strong and courageous, and tell me:

Is forgiveness sometimes restoring a relationship with someone who earns our trust, or is it never forgiving to restore a relationship with someone who earns our trust?

I'm challenging you to answer the question in a sentence or less. One word will do--sometimes, or never.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hello Brother Spockrates.
Wondering if I'd come back?
I apologize for not replying back quicker to your last post (#284). My own trials have stopped me from getting down to the "nitty-gritty" so to speak. At least as quickly as I would have liked to.

It seems I've had to do some catch-up (20 or so posts). Which gave me time to see if your last "ideas" you made to me in #253 which is what I'm assuming you're referring to below have change.

#284

So what did you think of my idea? Close to the truth, or did I miss it by a mile?

#253

My first thought is that there is a difference between thoughts and actions. Forgiveness, it seems to me might sometimes be one and other times be the other. Sometimes one might forgive with one's mind, as James suggested in this discussion, by not blaming the forgiven. Other times one might forgive with more than merely thought. One might forgive with actions, by doing something to show the forgiven she is forgiven.

What do you think of my ideas so far?

The only addition to this line of thought would be is that you can't have the action without the thought/belief. One can verbalize or act upon something all they want, but until one believes in ones heart it's truth, ones spirit still remains empty of any change or growth.

Reminds me a little of how belief is spoken of by Paul in Romans.

Otherwise, I'd say. So far so good Brother!
YBIC
C4E

Additional Note: Seems you've brought some joy to Brighthouse!!!! Love it when brothers in Christ Jesus, just seem to "click"

Matthew 18:20

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Thanks for replying, SLE. Please tell me: The ones who genuinely seek--are they those who sincerely repent and also request forgiveness? Or are they those who request but refuse to repent? Or are they those who neither request nor repent?

When I came to Christ in 1983 I had not officially repented of anything, but I was genually seeking; the repentance came later, after a period of spiritual growth.

 

[Spockrates]

Hello Brother Spockrates.
Wondering if I'd come back?
I apologize for not replying back quicker to your last post (#284). My own trials have stopped me from getting down to the "nitty-gritty" so to speak. At least as quickly as I would have liked to.

It seems I've had to do some catch-up (20 or so posts). Which gave me time to see if your last "ideas" you made to me in #253 which is what I'm assuming you're referring to below have change.

#284

#253

The only addition to this line of thought would be is that you can't have the action without the thought/belief. One can verbalize or act upon something all they want, but until one believes in ones heart it's truth, ones spirit still remains empty of any change or growth.

Reminds me a little of how belief is spoken of by Paul in Romans.

Otherwise, I'd say. So far so good Brother!
YBIC
C4E

Additional Note: Seems you've brought some joy to Brighthouse!!!! Love it when brothers in Christ Jesus, just seem to "click"

Good to hear from you, again! Well, I think it is possible to have action without belief. Consider the film Saving Private Ryan. A soldier in the film believed he should act bravely. But instead, he was a coward and did not fight to save his friend from death. (I found disturbing the scene where he cowered outside the room where a German soldier struggled with and killed his friend with a knife, even as his friend cried out for help.) In this case, he acted contrary to his belief. A biblical example would be Peter, who said he would die with Christ, but instead succumbed to fear and denied he even knew him.

Perhaps it is also possible to act contrary to one's beliefs regarding forgiveness. A person might do some act of forgiveness, so that others might see, yet in her heart still harbor resentment.

But do you think a forgiving act is not truly forgiveness if there are no corresponding thoughts? Do you also think the same is true of other examples of love--an act of compassion is not truly love unless there are also compassionate feelings motivating the act?

 

[Spockrates]

When I came to Christ in 1983 I had not officially repented of anything, but I was genually seeking; the repentance came later, after a period of spiritual growth.

In what way did you come to Christ? Not asking for personal details, just a general answer. For example, did you believe Christ died for your sins but not believe you must repent? That's what happened with me. I called myself a saint saved by grace but still lived like the devil.

 

[Brighthouse]

Brother Spocrates it is kindness to forgive 2Peter 1:5-11

 

[Christ4Ever]

Good to hear from you, again! Well, I think it is possible to have action without belief. Consider the film Saving Private Ryan. A soldier in the film believed he should act bravely. But instead, he was a coward and did not fight to save his friend from death. (I found disturbing the scene where he cowered outside the room where a German soldier struggled with and killed his friend with a knife, even as his friend cried out for help.) In this case, he acted contrary to his belief. A biblical example would be Peter, who said he would die with Christ, but instead succumbed to fear and denied he even knew him.

Perhaps it is also possible to act contrary to one's beliefs regarding forgiveness. A person might do some act of forgiveness, so that others might see, yet in her heart still harbor resentment.

But do you think a forgiving act is not truly forgiveness if there are no corresponding thoughts? Do you also think the same is true of other examples of love--an act of compassion is not truly love unless there are also compassionate feelings motivating the act?

Hello Brother Spockrates.

So little time. Have to get straight to the point and attempt to keep it short! LOL

Have you truly forgiven someone if it’s only an action?

Are you following the letter of the law? Something that you feel is required of you of which you don’t believe? So you go through the motions? Forgiveness must be believed not necessarily by the receiver for we do not control how others receive what is communicated, but as the sender we do control what we give. If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart......isn't that what Paul spoke of in Romans 10:9 and Brother Brighthouse in #242 " action of any belief which defines ones faith...... Bear witness to Jesus in us !". Paul in regards to salvation and Brother Brighthouse in who we believe in; that as witnesses, words w/o action is what? and words/action w/o belief is what? Deception at best, but all being said and done, just a lie? What's worse it's one we might even believe?

Now to that unbelief that the above brings to mind which should be addressed..........Appreciate the movie reference, but what the soldier lacked was one item that can be helped and does apply to what is being talked of when it comes to action. So we go the one who can provide to us what we are in need of........

"Faith" Mark 9:24 "......., Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." The awesome part is that the father stepped out in faith to acknowledge his unbelief. So if you trust in the Lord and step out in faith in regards to forgiveness either as giver/receiver He will always be there for you to provide the necessary belief.

As long as you keep in mind that forgiveness is not about gaining anything, but truly being freed from, hopefully this will make it easier to have the proper outlook.

In truth you have already spoken of it.....Love.......you had it.....extrapolate it........allow it to be in every......I mean every part of your life and till your death when you will at last are united with all the Saints and Him the originator of that Love. Try to remember that forgiveness provides another way by which you are giving & receiving that Love that has been shown and given to us through Christ Jesus. That might be the greatest gift of forgiveness that allows healing to occur which opens the door to greater love and peace.

YBIC
C4E

Extra Note of Interest: One thing I've noticed when people have apologized, and have seen it even in myself in the past. Most folks go with "Forgive me "fill in blank" for what happened......" then we add....... "If this other thing hadn't happened" or "but I really didn't mean it to happen, etc.........when we do this, are we really looking for forgiveness or are we attempting to justify our actions by basically saying it really wasn't my fault? I'm sure you've seen it or have even done it, but clearly not in line with what forgiveness is trying to accomplish with either party!


PS: Haven't really taken a closer look at this, like I usually do. Time is a pressing, but :wink: I wanted to reply back to you!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

In what way did you come to Christ? Not asking for personal details, just a general answer.

I found myself being slowly drawn toward an interest in the Bible and I eventually had a powerful Holy Spirit engineered experience in a church service when I experienced love unlike I'd ever experienced it before and I knew it was from God and I was hooked.

SLE

 

[Spockrates]

Brother Spocrates it is kindness to forgive

Yes it is, my friend.

 

[Spockrates]

I found myself being slowly drawn toward an interest in the Bible and I eventually had a powerful Holy Spirit engineered experience in a church service when I experienced love unlike I'd ever experienced it before and I knew it was from God and I was hooked.

SLE

Yeah, when I was introduced to the gospel, I could not get enough of the Bible and read it from cover to cover. Then and now John's gospel and the psalms I most enjoy reading.

It seem, though repentance is required by God to be forgiven, at least in some cases. For Jesus said:

"...and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

(Luke 24:47)

And Paul appears to say the same:

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret... .

(2 Corinthians 7:10)

But what do you think? Are Jesus and Paul saying repentance is required to be eternally forgiven by God? Or am I misunderstanding these passages?

 

[SpiritLedEd]

It seem, though repentance is required by God to be forgiven, at least in some cases.

I hate the word required when its used in religious contexts. It's not about rule-keeping; it's about relationship with your Creator. As I said, when I first came to Christ I was not interested in repentance, but I was captivated by His love.

SLE

 

[Spockrates]

I hate the word required when its used in religious contexts. It's not about rule-keeping; it's about relationship with your Creator. As I said, when I first came to Christ I was not interested in repentance, but I was captivated by His love.

SLE

Yes, I hate the word too! I also agree Christianity is a relationship. But in relationships, aren't there requirements?

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. ... 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her... 1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

(Ephesians 5 and 6)

Love, respect or obedience are requirements for those in such relationships, I think.

But don't take my word for it! Paul and Jesus are the ones who say repentance saves us. The questions to answer, then are these: Are there different kinds or degrees of repentance? If there are, then what kind or degree of repentance is sufficient for such salvation?

 

[Spockrates]

Hello Brother Spockrates.

So little time. Have to get straight to the point and attempt to keep it short! LOL

Have you truly forgiven someone if it’s only an action?

Are you following the letter of the law? Something that you feel is required of you of which you don’t believe? So you go through the motions?

Thank you so much for the time you are able to give, my friend! Yes, I agree and would call such hypocrisy. But perhaps we should not be so quick to judge. There is a difference, I think between having one's mind dead set against the thing done and desiring to have one's mind aligned with the thing done. Many times I have prayed for myself when antagonists give me a hard time, "Lord, help me! I don't love them, but I want to want to love them the way you do."

Forgiveness must be believed not necessarily by the receiver for we do not control how others receive what is communicated, but as the sender we do control what we give. If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart......isn't that what Paul spoke of in and Brother Brighthouse in #242 " action of any belief which defines ones faith...... Bear witness to Jesus in us !". Paul in regards to salvation and Brother Brighthouse in who we believe in; that as witnesses, words w/o action is what? and words/action w/o belief is what? Deception at best, but all being said and done, just a lie? What's worse it's one we might even believe?

But I think there is a difference between faith or belief resulting in acts of trust, and emotions such as compassion resulting in acts of love and forgiveness. Belief is a logical process of acting on what we have determined is true. Emotions are often illogical, sometimes tempting us to act contrary to such faith. They are the stuff that sin is made of. As Paul explains:

15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.

(Romans 8)

So words such as, "I forgive you," spoken without the emotion of compassion might show desire, but not necessarily show a lack of faith. I might confidently believe that I should speak and act in forgiving ways. Yet I might, at the same time know I feel resentment, anger or even hatred, although I sincerely desire to feel differently.

With this in mind, would you say one who speaks and acts forgivingly, but still has not overcome such feelings has not truly forgiven? Would you say one who speaks and acts lovingly, but still has not overcome such feelings has not truly loved?

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Indeed God does want us to repent and indeed repentance is the key to salvation, BUT, we cannot reach that stage by ourselves; when we become willing to change, His Spirit enters our hearts and leads us to repentance.

"But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes He will guide you into all truth" (Jn 16:13)

SLE

 

[Spockrates]

Indeed God does want us to repent and indeed repentance is the key to salvation, BUT, we cannot reach that stage by ourselves; when we become willing to change, His Spirit enters our hearts and leads us to repentance.

"But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes He will guide you into all truth" ()

SLE

Yes, I agree the Holy Spirit changes hearts and minds, which some say is what repentance is. Though I think that might be only part of what complete repentance is.

So then, it seems God fully and eternally forgives those who meet the requirement of repenting. I suppose, then the next question to answer is this: Should we sometimes forgive others the way God forgives us? Should we require others to repent before we fully forgive them? I wonder if this is what Jesus meant, here:

3 “So watch yourselves. If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. 4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

(Luke 17)

What do you think he meant by the words, "if they repent, forgive them"?