Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?

[Spockrates]

In Jesus says if your brother trespasses against you rebuke him and if he repents forgive him. And if he trespass against you 7 times in one day and turn to you 7 times and say I repent, then you shall forgive him.

So I don't think you should forgive all your brothers immediately if they sin against you, but first rebuke them. If they repent their sin you should forgive them, but if they don't repent I guess you don't have to forgive them.

So glad you joined the discussion, Laeomis! Yes, I think in some cases repentance might be required, but perhaps not in every case.

Think about Jesus' prayer for his executioners: "Father, forgive them."

We might ask, "Forgive them, Jesus? Why on earth or in heaven should we do that?"

His answer: "Because they don't know what they are doing," he says (Luke 23:34).

But in both cases, the one forgiven first meets a condition. In the former, the condition is repentance--sincerely deciding to try to never commit the sin again. In the latter, the the condition is ignorance--honestly having no idea a sin was committed.

I guess the next question, then is this: Is there any example in the Bible, or in human experience, where it is good and logical to forgive unconditionally?

It's OK if you don't know. I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[Spockrates]

The point to me brother Spocrates is this. Forgiveness is for your sake,so your prayers stay answered! The only person who suffers by not Forgiving is us! While true some anger can last a bit, do not let the sun go down on that anger either!! 2 reason bros. 1. for unforgiveness robs you! and 2!!! ! For unforgivness covets self! !! That is why bro. If people look to argue with this, let them, it is not you who will suffer!! I know, i have seen, and I have witnessed to both!! lol We learn the easy way or the hard way,I choose the hard way, and suffered greatly because of it bro,don't you!

But my friend, didn't you say forgiveness is love, and love is an action we do for others and not for ourselves? (See your post from 11/23/2014.)

 

[Spockrates]

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[Spockrates]

Looks like you've drawn me in at least for the time being

What you will need to do is find scriptural examples of all the above questions posed by you. Not as recorded in the OT, since the Law was the governing standard for determining a wrong with approved acceptable standard of correction. The NT example as exemplified by Christ Jesus would be of greater benefit for study/application. For it is His walk, His life, His words, with understanding through the Holy Spirit that brings us to the point where we would even begin to contemplate a desire to ask for or give forgiveness.

The use of would not be applicable to forgiveness unless as it pertains to love "...as Christ Loved us". If anything it would point more towards a sacrificial standard on our parts "....and gave Himself up for us.". From what I can tell any thought of withholding forgiveness unless one would see it as an act of love or sacrifice would be inconsistent with this verse and the subject you're looking to know more about.

Yes please do so. With everything that so far has been posted on the subject on this thread and how you've integrated this with your own studies might, I believe, provide an interesting if not good overview on the subject of "forgiveness". Go for it brother.
YBIC
C4E

Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

So what did you think of my idea? Close to the truth, or did I miss it by a mile?

 

[Spockrates]

Sure...

(Single word post...oops)

Please forgive me, Strypes if I misunderstood you, again.

 

[Laeomis]

I agree that forgiveness is very important and in some cases repentance isn't always in the formulae the same. Like in the parable about the king who forgives the man who owed him lots of money and just lets it go. So I think you should always try to forgive first, but if a brother keeps making the same trespass or keeps making different trespasses against you further action may be required and it just is not reasonable to forgive them while their sin is still in effect on your life because it would just keep making you mad and mad, so they'd have to stop it and repent for you to even be able to forgive them.

As for unconditional forgiveness that is the case if they tell you they repent. You should forgive them in every case if they repent. Also it is wise to let debts go and not pressure people to pay you money they owe.

 

[Strypes]

@Spockrates,
There is nothing to forgive. No misunderstanding. You had asked if I wanted to hear your take on things and I said "sure" but as a single word post is against forum rules, I had to add a bit to make it a legal post. You have already posted your take on things and I have already replied with my rebuttal/response. I hope you will one day learn what it means to forgive. I have nothing more to add.

 

[Spockrates]

@Spockrates,
There is nothing to forgive. No misunderstanding. You had asked if I wanted to hear your take on things and I said "sure" but as a single word post is against forum rules, I had to add a bit to make it a legal post. You have already posted your take on things and I have already replied with my rebuttal/response. I hope you will one day learn what it means to forgive. I have nothing more to add.

OK, thanks. I appreciate all your help.

 

[Strypes]

OK, thanks. I appreciate all your help.

You are welcome.

 

[Laeomis]

As for when Jesus asked God to forgive them he said because they know not what they do. I just made a connection I have never made before because you mentioned that and I thought about it. In Leviticus chapter 4 it talks for a while about sins of ignorance and it goes through the offering of how the souls shall be forgiven if they sin by ignorance. So I drew this connection between the two and that's kind of what Jesus is asking god to do, forgive them for their ignorance. Bless the lord that we don't have to go through the old testament sin offerings anymore.

 

[Strypes]

I agree that forgiveness is very important and in some cases repentance isn't always in the formulae the same. Like in the parable about the king who forgives the man who owed him lots of money and just lets it go. So I think you should always try to forgive first, but if a brother keeps making the same trespass or keeps making different trespasses against you further action may be required and it just is not reasonable to forgive them while their sin is still in effect on your life because it would just keep making you mad and mad, so they'd have to stop it and repent for you to even be able to forgive them.

As for unconditional forgiveness that is the case if they tell you they repent. You should forgive them in every case if they repent. Also it is wise to let debts go and not pressure people to pay you money they owe.

@Spockrates,
If you listen to this guy, you will never understand forgiveness.

Remember that the reason we forgive is because we ourselves are forgiven and God ask us to forgive so we do it in obedience to Him. The offending party need not "repent" for us to forgive.

 

[Brighthouse]

Sure we do this for others bro! When you give a nice gift to someone,and they light up because you cared enough about them,do you not feel good as well? Sure you do! Giving and forgiving like any gift of love is always shared.

 

[Spockrates]

@Spockrates,
If you listen to this guy, you will never understand forgiveness.

Remember that the reason we forgive is because we ourselves are forgiven and God ask us to forgive so we do it in obedience to Him. The offending party need not "repent" for us to forgive.

You mean this, don't you?

We love because he first loved us.

(1 John 4:19)

If so, then are you saying forgiveness is a kind of love? The next question, then is this: Is love something we do only for ourselves, or something we do for others? And the question after that: Since love is what we do for others, what do we do for them--do we reconcile with them and trust them again?

You see, Strypes? I do believe you and James and others in this discussion are right. Forgiving is something we should never fail to do for ourselves. We should let go of the resentment so the bitterness does not consume us. With God's help, we can always do this.

But I also wonder if Laeomis is right. For I see how forgiveness is love, and love is a giving thing. It's something we do for others to benefit them, even when it does not necessarily benefit us.

So why can't you both be right? Why can't the truth be, as Brighthouse suggests, both? Forgiveness is something we always unconditionally do for ourselves, but sometimes conditionally do for others?

 

[Spockrates]

Sure we do this for others bro! When you give a nice gift to someone,and they light up because you cared enough about them,do you not feel good as well? Sure you do! Giving and forgiving like any gift of love is always shared.

Yes, sounds logical to me. Loving others--whether it be by forgiving or some other way--gives me a sense of satisfaction. And I see no reason to believe we cannot always let go of resentment or even hatred, with God's help.

But what if someone does you and I wrong, knows it's wrong and does not care? What of those about whom Paul warns us?

Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

(1 Timothy 4:2)

We should not seethe with anger thinking about what they did. But should we forgive them by reconciling with them, when they don't want reconciliation? Should we forgive them by trusting them when they make it clear they are not to be trusted?

You see? I'm thinking we should always forgive in one way but not always forgive in every way. What do you think?

 

[Spockrates]

As for when Jesus asked God to forgive them he said because they know not what they do. I just made a connection I have never made before because you mentioned that and I thought about it. In Leviticus chapter 4 it talks for a while about sins of ignorance and it goes through the offering of how the souls shall be forgiven if they sin by ignorance. So I drew this connection between the two and that's kind of what Jesus is asking god to do, forgive them for their ignorance. Bless the lord that we don't have to go through the old testament sin offerings anymore.

Amen. The thing is, those who don't think they've done anything wrong might be quite a large group, indeed! Many quarrels among Christians and non-Christians center around disagreements over whether a wrong was committed at all. It's not easy to find someone who admits she did wrong, and perhaps even harder to get the wrongdoer to admit she needs to make a change!

So I suppose ignorance would be the logical reason to take some forgiving action in many cases. Where such an action is not wise, some convincing might be required, as Jesus recommends:

15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

(Matthew 18)

What are your thoughts?

 

[Brighthouse]

I knew you would get me Spocrates!!!! LOL TRUST!!!!! You smoked me on that one brother!!!LOL How many times will you go off the cliff with people?? ONCE!!! I forgive, but when asked are you willing to trust me again??? A fault of mine bro!! I am, and believe most highly in being, and in staying LOYAL! Once a person becomes disloyal in any way shape or form,my relationship also ends with them. It was also true in business brother,I ran a hardware store for a while,laid down the rules for each who wished to work for me,do not steal! be on time, and do your job!if you need Money or goods, ask me! Fail me In these areas,and you fail also the people you work with,and judgment will be severe.i told each this brother! No misunderstanding,and swift results!( col 3:25)

After a couple of months,one of my very good employees stole a pot they needed from the store. The excuse was,It was late and I did not wish to call you,but really needed the idem. Fired. If a person steals once from you,they will,or have already taken something again brother,it is just in there nature, oh they will promise you they will not,but time and time again I have seen this happen.

I forgive you for what you have done,but because of what you have done I promised you, as I did to all, upon you being hired that you would be fired.( col 3:25!!) I hope the next person you work for,you become more loyal to, and learn from what has happened here today.I will not say anything against you,for you have been forgiven,but there is a consequence as well. If I would have kept him on, then the others would have found out that my word was no good!A manager cannot afford this! Some will disagree with my actions, I understand this!

But there is one thing, hanging with me, all will understand.

You will never have a more faithful friend,or a more LOYAL ONE! That is just my nature bro,and in this no matter what anyone says or believes,I will not change this for myself,it is MY law,written on MY heart! Jesus knows me,and understands me! Even before Jesus came into my life,being loyal in word and in deed has always been a part of my character brother,I grew up in an Italian area. LOL if your word is no good neither are you.That is just the way it is for me bro.Think I may need some work in the trust area perhaps??? I admit it brother! But the few friends I do have, are really friends!! Jesus had but 12 of these himself!! LOL And he was on the earth for some thirty years!! LOL friends are few indeed brother,but you have to become one to know what a true friend really is! For to me there is a law in friendship.( john 15:11-17) I have 3 myself. Because a friend to me, i will die for! That is our bond,and loyality as a friend to me brother. Happy now brother???LOL You got me!! LOL hahahaa. Blessing!!

 

[Brighthouse]

Remember what Jesus told Adam??( genesis 2:16-17!!) If the Lord would have not done what he said he would do,how could we learn from the beginning just how important our words are to others?? There will always be someone who will test your words,to really confirm you words! That is why we are accountable,and those who would look to become our friends will themselves hold to this,one way or another!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Does the Son of God never fail to forgive? Or does the Son of Man sometimes fail to forgive, but still commit no sin?

The Son of God and Son of Man are one and the same person, the Lord Jesus. Son of God and Son of Man are titles He used to describe His divinity and His humanity and He never fails to forgive; that's what the cross was all about.

SLE

 

[Spockrates]

The Son of God and Son of Man are one and the same person, the Lord Jesus. Son of God and Son of Man are titles He used to describe His divinity and His humanity and He never fails to forgive; that's what the cross was all about.

SLE

Please allow me to rephrase the question, SLE: Did or will Jesus ever fail to forgive, yet commit no sin? For example, when he returns to judge the living and the dead, will he judge some, but forgive others?

 

[Spockrates]

I knew you would get me Spocrates!!!! LOL TRUST!!!!! You smoked me on that one brother!!!LOL How many times will you go off the cliff with people?? ONCE!!! I forgive, but when asked are you willing to trust me again??? A fault of mine bro!! I am, and believe most highly in being, and in staying LOYAL! Once a person becomes disloyal in any way shape or form,my relationship also ends with them. It was also true in business brother,I ran a hardware store for a while,laid down the rules for each who wished to work for me,do not steal! be on time, and do your job!if you need Money or goods, ask me! Fail me In these areas,and you fail also the people you work with,and judgment will be severe.i told each this brother! No misunderstanding,and swift results!( col 3:25)

After a couple of months,one of my very good employees stole a pot they needed from the store. The excuse was,It was late and I did not wish to call you,but really needed the idem. Fired. If a person steals once from you,they will,or have already taken something again brother,it is just in there nature, oh they will promise you they will not,but time and time again I have seen this happen.

I forgive you for what you have done,but because of what you have done I promised you, as I did to all, upon you being hired that you would be fired.( col 3:25!!) I hope the next person you work for,you become more loyal to, and learn from what has happened here today.I will not say anything against you,for you have been forgiven,but there is a consequence as well. If I would have kept him on, then the others would have found out that my word was no good!A manager cannot afford this! Some will disagree with my actions, I understand this!

But there is one thing, hanging with me, all will understand.

You will never have a more faithful friend,or a more LOYAL ONE! That is just my nature bro,and in this no matter what anyone says or believes,I will not change this for myself,it is MY law,written on MY heart! Jesus knows me,and understands me! Even before Jesus came into my life,being loyal in word and in deed has always been a part of my character brother,I grew up in an Italian area. LOL if your word is no good neither are you.That is just the way it is for me bro.Think I may need some work in the trust area perhaps??? I admit it brother! But the few friends I do have, are really friends!! Jesus had but 12 of these himself!! LOL And he was on the earth for some thirty years!! LOL friends are few indeed brother,but you have to become one to know what a true friend really is! For to me there is a law in friendship.( john 15:11-17) I have 3 myself. Because a friend to me, i will die for! That is our bond,and loyality as a friend to me brother. Happy now brother???LOL You got me!! LOL hahahaa. Blessing!!

One of Socrates' friends said having a conversation with him was like going for a swim with an electric eel. But he was glad he did, for without the shock treatment, he would have continued to foolishly believe two opposing ideas were both true!

So now that you have been zapped, let's see what opposing ideas have shocked you. Let's determine which is likely true and which is likely untrue...