Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?

[Spockrates]

Yes.

Feelings are fickle and forgiveness goes against what we "feel" most of the time in my experience. You can "feel" angry/hurt/furious/sad/betrayed etc and still CHOOSE to forgive.

Can be, yes.

Thanks for replying.



So then, let's consider some real examples. For instance, someone steals my car. Should I forgive him?

 

[Strypes]

I recently watched the movie "Ragamuffin" about the life story of one of my most favorite artist, Rich Mullins. (Available on Netfilx and at Walmart etc)... And I am reminded of a joke he used to tell..


As Rich Mullins used to joke, "Vengeance is mine, thus saith the Lord, and I just want to be about my Father's business".



I know that when we are wronged it is a natural "feeling" to be angry. We want to reciprocate the injustice done to us and get them back. Yet Jesus tells us to forgive. It is a choice and it can be a very difficult choice but the peace that comes from being obedient to God is far greater than any fleeting satisfaction derived from retribution.

 

[Strypes]

So then, let's consider some real examples. For instance, someone steals my car. Should I forgive him?

Forgiveness and accountability are not exclusive. You can forgive the person for stealing your car and still report it stolen.

 

[Spockrates]

Forgiveness and accountability are not exclusive. You can forgive the person for stealing your car and still report it stolen.

So in the case of someone stealing my car, forgiveness is not an act of releasing someone from paying a debt owed to me?

 

[Strypes]

So in the case of someone stealing my car, forgiveness is not an act of releasing someone from paying a debt owed to me?

Choosing to forgive the person for stealing from you is a matter of the heart.

Choosing to give them your car would be a different choice. You could choose that if you owned the car free and clear I suppose. But for your protection it would be wise to report the car stolen and also report your car tag stolen in the event the thief uses your car in another crime.

 

[Strypes]

For clarity, releasing a debt is a form of forgiveness. It is not the only form. Someone can lie about you and you can forgive them too and even though it is a form of "release" there was no money involved per se.

Years ago I got a friend out of jail. I used my entire paycheck ($1500.00) and I expected my friend to give me her entire paycheck. She gave me ten dollars and said she would pay me ten dollars a week until she repaid me. I was not cool with that but considering her circumstances at the time I agreed to her arrangement.

It took me several months to get my fiances straight and she did give me the ten dollars a week for about a month or two. Then she moved away to another state and I lost over a thousand dollars. I choose to not only forgive her for not paying me back but I also release that debt.

I learned a valuable lesson in the process. Never loan someone anything you could not afford to lose and if you do loan someone something, in your heart consider it a gift so if they do fail to repay, it would be no big deal.

 

[Spockrates]

For clarity, releasing a debt is a form of forgiveness. It is not the only form.

So when Jesus taught us to pray, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive those endebted to us," what did he mean? Did he mean we should sometimes forgive our debtors and sometimes not forgive them? Sometimes we should say they don't have to pay, and other times we should, like the rich man in the parable, demand they pay us back everything they owe us?

Someone can lie about you and you can forgive them too and even though it is a form of "release" there was no money involved per se.

Years ago I got a friend out of jail. I used my entire paycheck ($1500.00) and I expected my friend to give me her entire paycheck. She gave me ten dollars and said she would pay me ten dollars a week until she repaid me. I was not cool with that but considering her circumstances at the time I agreed to her arrangement.

It took me several months to get my fiances straight and she did give me the ten dollars a week for about a month or two. Then she moved away to another state and I lost over a thousand dollars. I choose to not only forgive her for not paying me back but I also release that debt.

I learned a valuable lesson in the process. Never loan someone anything you could not afford to lose and if you do loan someone something, in your heart consider it a gift so if they do fail to repay, it would be no big deal.

So was the lesson you learned that you should be careful to forgive only the debts you can afford to forgive?

 

[Strypes]

So when Jesus taught us to pray, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive those endebted to us," what did he mean? Did he mean we should sometimes forgive our debtors and sometimes not forgive them? Sometimes we should say they don't have to pay, and other times we should, like the rich man in the parable, demand they pay us back everything they owe us?

So was the lesson you learned that you should be careful to forgive only the debts you can afford to forgive?

Jesus meant exactly what He said.

As for the lesson I learned, I believe I stated it quite clearly.

There is a proverb that says something like "only a fool argues with a fool". So I have a choice to make.

Like choosing to love and choosing to forgive, I now find myself in a conversation about forgiveness with one who appears to be baiting me into an argument and I must choose whether or not I continue in this conversation with one who seems hell bent on argument.

I forgive you. Good day.

 

[Spockrates]

Jesus meant exactly what He said.

As for the lesson I learned, I believe I stated it quite clearly.

There is a proverb that says something like "only a fool argues with a fool". So I have a choice to make.

Like choosing to love and choosing to forgive, I now find myself in a conversation about forgiveness with one who appears to be baiting me into an argument and I must choose whether or not I continue in this conversation with one who seems hell bent on argument.

I forgive you. Good day.

It's not an argument, my friend. For there is no point I'm trying to defend! It's a Socratic dialog, where I ask questions I have about why one believes, so I might see if they are good reasons for me to believe, too.



But one last question before you go (and I respect your decision to not answer, if you choose): What debt do I owe you in this discussion, and how have you forgiven that debt by walking away?

 

[Spockrates]

Forgiveness is a kind of mercy.

To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him
God forgives not because He loves, but because He is merciful.
Doing good is a kind of love ().

So when you forgive someone, you are being merciful to them, and you can forgive someone without loving them.
But if you do something good for those who hurt you, then you are showing love.
On the one hand Jesus says to forgive, and on the other hand Jesus says to do good to enemies.
Jesus is basically saying to show mercy and love. It is possible to love without mercy and have mercy without love.

Great thoughts, James! They have me thinking. Please let me know if you are willing to discuss them. For I wonder if forgiving is really the same as showing mercy.

 

[Spockrates]

Hi @Spockrates

Forgiveness. It started ultimately and eternally at the Cross. It was all about this: God forgiving us of our sins, the free gift of grace that cost Jesus His life.

Remember what even Jesus did while dying in the Cross?

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

What else did Jesus say?


Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

We also forgive so that our prayers will not be hindered:

And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Wonderful passages, Chad! Please let me know which one you most want to discuss.

 

[Spockrates]

Bumping this one. I'm thinking forgiveness isn't as simple or easy as it sounds. It is a difficult subject to discuss logically, as one often has emotions invested in the process of forgiving. However it is imperative we do discern what it is. Otherwise how will we know how to forgive?

 

[Strypes]

Forgiveness is a gift. God's gift to us and our gifts to those we forgive. According to the world it is not logical for someone to forgive someone that has harmed them in some way. Like love, forgiveness is a choice. Feelings are irrelevant.

What does logic have to do with forgiveness?

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Strypes]

However it is imperative we do discern what it is. Otherwise how will we know how to forgive?

Forgiveness is a choice.

We choose to obey God by choosing to forgive those that have wronged us.

It is a hard thing to do.

I am sure that it wasn't easy for Jesus to forgive those who put nails in his hands especially whist the nails were in his hands. But Jesus did!

It was not logical. It was amazing.

 

[Spockrates]

What does logic have to do with forgiveness?

For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Thank you for replying, my friend!

“Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."

(Isaiah 1:18)

I believe God is saying here that reason (another word for logic) is what He wants us to use when considering forgiveness. But do you disagree?

 

[Spockrates]

Forgiveness is a choice.

We choose to obey God by choosing to forgive those that have wronged us.

It is a hard thing to do.

I am sure that it wasn't easy for Jesus to forgive those who put nails in his hands especially whist the nails were in his hands. But Jesus did!

It was not logical. It was amazing.

A choice to do what, exactly?

 

[Spockrates]

Strypes:

What you say reminds me of that old Nike slogan, "Just do it!" The words might be helpful to some, but only if they already know what it is. As for me, I don't already know what forgiveness is, so how can I correctly know what choice to make?

 

[grandmamary1219]

Do you think Jesus is saying we must forgive everyone for everything, lest we fail to forgive just one and are never forgiven by God for our momentary lack of forgiveness?

In order to understand, it is important to come to a knowledge of just how sinful you have been, are being, and will be throughout your life. Then understand that the penalty for that sin before a just Judge is death and eternal separation from the God who loves you. Contemplate how much you are loved by the just Judge in that He sent His only begotten Son to pay the entire penalty for your sin, (and not yours only but for every sin of all mankind throughout the ages) in order to reconcile you to also be a son of God and joint heir with Christ to all God has planned for you throughout all eternity.

Then realize that every sin is forgiven man except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (unbelief). Free will is given us by God to choose Life or choose Death (Deuteronomy 30:15-20) and scripture even gives you the right answer for this multiple choice quiz --- Choose Life!

Now come to the brilliant deduction that in order for you to follow in the footsteps of the Messiah, you must leave all judgment to the just Judge and not take vengeance upon those who sin against you, but forgive them that debt as you have been forgiven your debt for sinning against our holy God.

Forgiveness implies that you will leave all judgment up to God for those who sin against you. After all, God knows all the details of the whys and the wherefores of each man's heart. You don't. So how can you judge a man's sin rightly?

Forgive them, and trust God to make all things right (Romans 8:28) in His perfect timing. And believe me, He will make all things right in His perfect timing!

Or choose death, if you wish to exercise your right to be the captain of your own soul.

It's the most important decision any of us can make.

And know this, forgiveness on your part toward a fellow man does not mean reconciliation with that fellow man. Reconciliation takes place only if there is repentance unless you just like to be a doormat to those who would abuse you ad nauseum.

You've been given many good answers and there does not seem to be much understanding on your part of this process of forgiveness even so. Have you ever actually placed your faith in Jesus? Once a person faithes on Jesus, the Holy Spirit indwells and begins to work progressively to teach, convict (of personal sin), discipline, and mold that believer into the likeness of the Son,

If you believe, then He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it!

Hebrews 12:2

Philippians 1:6

Go to GotQuestions, a link provided right here on Talk Jesus, and ask questions there about all these things. Read the answers until you understand. Read your bible in context, not just isolated scriptures. The Holy Spirit will do His job if you are open to His leading.

 

[Spockrates]

In order to understand, it is important to come to a knowledge of just how sinful you have been, are being, and will be throughout your life. Then understand that the penalty for that sin before a just Judge is death and eternal separation from the God who loves you. Contemplate how much you are loved by the just Judge in that He sent His only begotten Son to pay the entire penalty for your sin, (and not yours only but for every sin of all mankind throughout the ages) in order to reconcile you to also be a son of God and joint heir with Christ to all God has planned for you throughout all eternity.

Thank you for your reply, and yes, I understand.

Then realize that every sin is forgiven man except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (unbelief). Free will is given us by God to choose Life or choose Death () and scripture even gives you the right answer for this multiple choice quiz --- Choose Life!

Yes, I realize.

Now come to the brilliant deduction that in order for you to follow in the footsteps of the Messiah, you must leave all judgment to the just Judge and not take vengeance upon those who sin against you, but forgive them that debt as you have been forgiven your debt for sinning against our holy God.

Yes, I have the same induction.

Forgiveness implies that you will leave all judgment up to God for those who sin against you. After all, God knows all the details of the whys and the wherefores of each man's heart. You don't. So how can you judge a man's sin rightly?

Forgive them, and trust God to make all things right () in His perfect timing. And believe me, He will make all things right in His perfect timing!

Or choose death, if you wish to exercise your right to be the captain of your own soul.

It's the most important decision any of us can make.

Yes, I agree it is vital.

And know this, forgiveness on your part toward a fellow man does not mean reconciliation with that fellow man. Reconciliation takes place only if there is repentance unless you just like to be a doormat to those who would abuse you ad nauseum.

But I wonder if what you say, here is true. How do you know to reconcile is not to forgive?

You've been given many good answers and there does not seem to be much understanding on your part of this process of forgiveness even so. Have you ever actually placed your faith in Jesus?

Yes, I have. But I don't think having perfect wisdom from God is a prerequisite for having genuine faith in God. One can trust what she does not fully understand. Yet, I don't think it is a sin to want to better understand. Do you?

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

(Philippians 4:8)

I think forgiveness is indeed a noble thing to try to comprehend.

Once a person faithes on Jesus, the Holy Spirit indwells and begins to work progressively to teach, convict (of personal sin), discipline, and mold that believer into the likeness of the Son,

If you believe, then He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it!

Agreed, and in my experience faith in God can be an event, but godly wisdom is a process. I'm sure your wisdom from the Holy Spirit is greater than it was when you first believed. Or am I wrong?

Go to GotQuestions, a link provided right here on Talk Jesus, and ask questions there about all these things. Read the answers until you understand. Read your bible in context, not just isolated scriptures. The Holy Spirit will do His job if you are open to His leading.

Jesus asked me to ask you, instead of reading some online article.



Please tell me why you believe forgiving is not the same as reconciling. Are you saying forgiveness cannot be the same because someone never needs to repent to be forgiven?

 

[grandmamary1219]

Please tell me why you believe forgiving is not the same as reconciling. Are you saying forgiveness cannot be the same because someone never needs to repent to be forgiven?

That's what I am saying, you forgive fellow man even if he does not repent. But I do not recommend reconciling with fellow man without his seriously repenting!

Let's give an example, a husband who beats his wife may enjoy reconcilation with her if she is afraid to leave him, but he will not necessarily enjoy forgiveness from her. However, she can decide to forgive him even if he never repents, but staying in the relationship without some serious repentance and demonstrated changed behavior on his part is not in her best interest!

In the case of God forgiving man, repentance (changing one's mind from unbelief to belief in Jesus) is required. Man cannot be saved by grace through faith in Jesus without repenting (believing that Jesus is who He claimed to be).