Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?

[Spockrates]

I agree that we can forgive with our will, with our thoughts, or with our feelings, or with various combinations of these 3. To forgive with all 3 is known as forgiving from the heart, and forgiving with all 3 is the standard which God requires (). This is also known as "true forgiveness". Partial forgiveness is not true forgiveness.

The garden gnome example is not an example of forgiveness but an example of retribution. Forgiveness comes into it if you blame the teen for what they have done, and the degree of blame shown in each situation is not clear in your example.

I don't understand what you mean by the word blame, I guess. In both examples, I blame (or believe the teen responsible for and guilty of doing wrong by his) damaging my property.

In the first example, I do seek retribution by calling the police. But in the second example, I don't seek retribution. For I do not call the police, nor do I demand payment for the damaged property.

But are you saying I have not forgiven the teen in either example? If so, please explain what I would do differently to show true forgiveness.

 

[Spockrates]

Well if you had previously shown your unforgiveness externally then remedy it with external means, saying "I forgive you" is a good start. But if it is internal unforgiveness then simply treat her as if you never harbored it inside your heart.

In Christ there is freedom Spockrates, we don't have to keep track of the faults of ourselves or others.

Thanks for the reply. Are you saying we should never judge another person, even if we are fair in our judgement?

 

[Spockrates]

When you really want to follow Jesus and be like him, yes, they say that you have to forgive all the time no matter what...

But as a human, we find it hard, especially if we were wronged severely. (Just like what I am experiencing now.) =)

I know what it is like to be wronged unfairly, Janiagail. Feeling a similar pain, myself. I also agree we should always seek to forgive. But what if a person refuses to repent--refuses to change her mind and behavior? Are we supposed to forgive, the one who does not want our forgiveness?

 

[Spockrates]

I do not know your situation, but I do know that God can be trusted.

Pray and seek God's guidance on how to deal with your situation. God's forgiveness and our forgiveness of others does not exclude the authorities from holding people accountable for their actions.

If someone is hurting your child, get her away from them and call the police.

I believe Paul agrees with you, Stypes. For he wrote:

"Love...always protects." (1 Corinthians 13:6-7)

In fact, he also writes that love "is not easily angered" and "it keeps no record of wrongs" (verse 5). I think you and I agree that forgiveness requires at least these two.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

Thanks for the reply. Are you saying we should never judge another person, even if we are fair in our judgement?

Jesus preached against hypocrisy. Why should you find fault in another when you have faults of your own? God calls us to love one another, and to share the mercy we have been given.

This is not meaning we turn a blind-eye to evil, or ignore teaching. But it means we should give Grace to those who need it, yourself and others alike!

 

[Janiagail]

I know what it is like to be wronged unfairly, Janiagail. Feeling a similar pain, myself. I also agree we should always seek to forgive. But what if a person refuses to repent--refuses to change her mind and behavior? Are we supposed to forgive, the one who does not want our forgiveness?

Hard as it may seem, to be like Jesus, the answer I think is - Yes...

 

[SpiritLedEd]

"But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

(Matthew‬ 6‬:15‬))

There is your general principle. "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8) and out of that love He forgives us all our sins and wants us to do the same. If we withhold forgiveness we are in violation of His will.

SLE

 

[Spockrates]

Jesus preached against hypocrisy. Why should you find fault in another when you have faults of your own? God calls us to love one another, and to share the mercy we have been given.

This is not meaning we turn a blind-eye to evil, or ignore teaching. But it means we should give Grace to those who need it, yourself and others alike!

Cosmic:

I hear what you are saying, and I agree. Yet, think a new or unthinking Christian might become confused by your statement. For at first glance, your words, "Why should you find fault in another when you have faults of your own?" appear to contradict your words, "This is not meaning we turn a blind-eye to evil, or ignore teaching."

The Bible might also cause similar confusion to some. For we read that Jesus said this:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

(Matthew 7:1-2)

But Paul wrote this:

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked person from among you.

(1 Corinthians 5:12-13)

So how do we reconcile the two? Do we say Jesus and Paul are saying the same thing? Do we say they encourage us not to judge, unless we have to judge, and when we must judge, we should do so without hypocrisy and unfairness?

 

[Spockrates]

There is your general principle. "God is love" () and out of that love He forgives us all our sins and wants us to do the same. If we withhold forgiveness we are in violation of His will.

SLE

Does God's love forgive all, or not all? If not all, then what is the difference between those forgiven and those who remain unforgiven by Gid? What, if anything, must the unforgiven do to receive His forgiving love?

 

[Spockrates]

Hard as it may seem, to be like Jesus, the answer I think is - Yes...

And how did Jesus forgive and teach us to forgive? Did he forgive everyone, everything, for no reason at all? Or did he forgive many (but not all) and show such forgiveness only when they met some condition to be forgiven?

Please consider this example. On the cross Jesus prayed:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

(Luke 23:34)

What reason did Jesus give for the Father to forgive?

 

[Strypes]

So how do we reconcile the two? Do we say Jesus and Paul are saying the same thing? Do we say they encourage us not to judge, unless we have to judge, and when we must judge, we should do so without hypocrisy and unfairness?

Does God's love forgive all, or not all? If not all, then what is the difference between those forgiven and those who remain unforgiven by Gid? What, if anything, must the unforgiven do to receive His forgiving love?

And how did Jesus forgive and teach us to forgive? Did he forgive everyone, everything, for no reason at all? Or did he forgive many (but not all) and show such forgiveness only when they met some condition to be forgiven?

Spockrates,

People answer your questions with straightforward answers given to you by their personal experiences, from scripture, and with examples in a fruitless attempt to help you understand forgiveness. You in turn take their answers (and mine) and put a dubious twist to them. Is your purpose to deliberately cause confusion? Do you take pleasure in your attempt to confound? Is your goal to push us all to exasperation as you did with @grandmamary1219 ??

You quoted Matthew 7 (Judge not that you be not judged).. so lets go off topic from "Forgiveness" and talk a bit about judging others.. Lets take a closer look at Matthew chapter 7...

Matthew 7: "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

Be careful how you judge as the standard you use will be the standard used to judge you. So what is the standard?

Let's keep reading in Matthew Chapter 7...

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

So with this thread as the tree and your responses to the participants being on trial (being judged), what "fruit" do we see?

Clarity? Understanding? Comfort? Affirmation? .... (Good Fruits)

or do we find your responses to be ..

Exasperating? Besetting? Quarrelsome? Confusing? Ambiguous? Shadowy? (Bad Fruit)

So what are your true intentions?

Do we continue with the discussion of judgement or return to the Topic of Forgiveness?

In summation, We are all guilty of sin and only through the love and grace of God do we find forgiveness because Jesus took the punishment for our crimes so that we are pardoned. We have Jesus' righteousness and not our own. We are judged as "NOT GUILTY" because we are covered by the blood of Jesus.

We forgive others because we ourselves are forgiven.

We are fully forgiven and we strive to fully forgive.

 

[Spockrates]

Spockrates,

People answer your questions with straightforward answers given to you by their personal experiences, from scripture, and with examples in a fruitless attempt to help you understand forgiveness.

Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

(Galatians 6:9)​

You in turn take their answers (and mine) and put a dubious twist to them. Is your purpose to deliberately cause confusion? Do you take pleasure in your attempt to confound? Is your goal to push us all to exasperation as you did with @grandmamary1219 ??

“If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”

(John 18:23)​

You quoted Matthew 7 (Judge not that you be not judged).. so lets go off topic from "Forgiveness" and talk a bit about judging others.. Lets take a closer look at Matthew chapter 7...

Not sure why you think judging someone is off the topic of forgiveness. I'm thinking judging someone is the opposite of forgiving them, my friend. By contrasting the two, my hope was it would help me better understand forgiveness.

Matthew 7: "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.


Be careful how you judge as the standard you use will be the standard used to judge you.

Yes, I agree with your interpretation of Christ's words. It's my interpretation, too. Although, we might both be mistaken.

So what is the standard?

Let's keep reading in Matthew Chapter 7...
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

So with this thread as the tree and your responses to the participants being on trial (being judged), what "fruit" do we see?

Clarity? Understanding? Comfort? Affirmation? .... (Good Fruits)

or do we find your responses to be ..

Exasperating? Besetting? Quarrelsome? Confusing? Ambiguous? Shadowy? (Bad Fruit)

It has never been my intention to quarrel, though I can understand how one might become impatient with my simple questions. It's true I would not classify myself as a good tree, even though some who know me well would disagree. However, I don't believe I am a bad tree, either. For I know my intentions are good and sincere. There is a third possibility: I might be neither a good nor a bad tree. This, I think, is the case. For I would classify myself as a barren tree, as I have many questions, but few answers to give.

what are your true intentions?

Rather than a tree, a more apt metaphor might be that of a gardener. I do find that for those who have the patience to allow me to prune them, they bear more fruit than they had before they allowed me to do my painful work. That is my intention--to help people think more clearly about why they believe. For knowing why one believes will increase one's faith in God, I think.

Do we continue with the discussion of judgement or return to the Topic of Forgiveness?

Yes, if you think by contrasting judgment with forgiveness will help us reap a good harvest of better understanding how to forgive. But if you think the line of inquiry will bear no good fruit, I'm willing to try something else. What do you have in mind?

In summation, We are all guilty of sin and only through the love and grace of God do we find forgiveness because Jesus took the punishment for our crimes so that we are pardoned. We have Jesus' righteousness and not our own. We are judged as "NOT GUILTY" because we are covered by the blood of Jesus.

We forgive others because we ourselves are forgiven.

We are fully forgiven and we strive to fully forgive.

Yes, you and I do both strive to forgive. But that is off topic, isn't it? In the opening post I did not ask if I should forgive, but how I should forgive. You see? So when I ask, "Strypes, how should I forgive?" and you answer, "Forgiveness is a choice. Just choose to forgive!" Can you then understand why I continue to ask questions? For you haven't really answered my question. Then when I ask, "Yes, but what should I do, exactly to show forgiveness?" and you answer, "We forgive others because we ourselves are forgiven. We are fully forgiven and we strive to forgive!" Can you now see that my question still remains unanswered? Strypes, I hope you will forgive me for asking, but don't you see that I'm not asking what I should do or why I should do it (as I know I should forgive because Christ loves me). I'm instead asking how I should do it. I might be wrong, but I don't think seeking this truth is a bad thing.

I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe.

(Ephesians 1:17-19)​

 

[Spockrates]

And please don't misunderstand, Strypes. I'm not saying you are to blame for not understanding what I was asking. The fault is mine for not being clear. But if my question is still unclear, please consider this:

When the jailer asked Paul and Silus, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They did not reply, "Salvation is a choice. Choose salvation!" Nor did they say, "You need to be saved, because if you are not saved, you are going to hell!" But instead, they answered his question, saying, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household” (Acts 16:29-31).

What I'm asking is this: "Strypes, what must I do to forgive?" And if you don't have the patience or the wisdom to answer, hey, that's OK! But can you blame a guy for asking?

 

[Strypes]

What I'm asking is this: "Strypes, what must I do to forgive?" And if you don't have the patience or the wisdom to answer, hey, that's OK! But can you blame a guy for asking?

The answer is still the same as it has been through out this thread. You choose to forgive. You make the choice to forgive. You decide you want to forgive.

If you want to be obedient to Christ command, then you choose to forgive.

We forgive others because we ourselves are forgiven.

We are fully forgiven and we strive to fully forgive.

So you want some tips on how to proceed after you have made the choice to forgive someone?

I can help with that.

Pray for them.

 

[Strypes]

It has never been my intention to quarrel, though I can understand how one might become impatient with my simple questions. It's true I would not classify myself as a good tree, even though some who know me well would disagree. However, I don't believe I am a bad tree, either. For I know my intentions are good and sincere. There is a third possibility: I might be neither a good nor a bad tree. This, I think, is the case. For I would classify myself as a barren tree, as I have many questions, but few answers to give.

So with this thread as the tree and your responses to the participants being on trial (being judged), what "fruit" do we see?

Clarity? Understanding? Comfort? Affirmation? .... (Good Fruits)

or do we find your responses to be ..

Exasperating? Besetting? Quarrelsome? Confusing? Ambiguous? Shadowy? (Bad Fruit)

So what are your true intentions?

Rather than a tree, a more apt metaphor might be that of a gardener. I do find that for those who have the patience to allow me to prune them, they bear more fruit than they had before they allowed me to do my painful work. That is my intention--to help people think more clearly about why they believe. For knowing why one believes will increase one's faith in God, I think.

Let's see what the Bible says about who does the pruning....

John 15:
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vine dresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. 9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you

Sooooo...

Spockrates,

At your own admission, you are a barren tree yet you wish to prune the rest of us. That is God's job. not yours.

You consider twisting our answers to your questions into a duplicitous inquiry contrary to our straightforward scripture based answers will increase our faith and that by challenging what we believe and what scripture states we will increase in faith because you made us think... Really?

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

Strypes <== *snatches pruning shears from Spockrates and gives them back to God.*


: )

 

[Spockrates]

The answer is still the same as it has been through out this thread. You choose to forgive. You make the choice to forgive. You decide you want to forgive.

If you want to be obedient to Christ command, then you choose to forgive.

We forgive others because we ourselves are forgiven.

We are fully forgiven and we strive to fully forgive.

So you want some tips on how to proceed after you have made the choice to forgive someone?

I can help with that.

Pray for them.

Thank you! So once I choose to forgive, because God forgave me, the way I do this forgiveness is to pray for the forgiven. I cannot argue with that. For Jesus prayed on the cross for his executioners:

"Father, forgive them. For they do not know what they are doing."

(Luke 23:34)

Now please tell me if your answer is complete, or if there is more to forgiving. Is praying the only thing I must do to forgive?

 

[Spockrates]

Let's see what the Bible says about who does the pruning....

Sooooo...

Spockrates,

At your own admission, you are a barren tree yet you wish to prune the rest of us. That is God's job. not yours.

You consider twisting our answers to your questions into a duplicitous inquiry contrary to our straightforward scripture based answers will increase our faith and that by challenging what we believe and what scripture states we will increase in faith because you made us think... Really?

Strypes <== *snatches pruning shears from Spockrates and gives them back to God.*

: )

LOL! Maybe I shouldn't ask questions to get people to think. Let's see if God gives the gardening tool back to me.



Therefore, be imitators of God as dearly loved children. And walk a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us as an offering and a sweet-smelling sacrifice to God.

(Ephesians 5:1-2)

 

[james1523]

And please don't misunderstand, Strypes. I'm not saying you are to blame for not understanding what I was asking. The fault is mine for not being clear. But if my question is still unclear, please consider this:

When the jailer asked Paul and Silus, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They did not reply, "Salvation is a choice. Choose salvation!" Nor did they say, "You need to be saved, because if you are not saved, you are going to hell!" But instead, they answered his question, saying, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household” (Acts 16:29-31).

What I'm asking is this: "Strypes, what must I do to forgive?" And if you don't have the patience or the wisdom to answer, hey, that's OK! But can you blame a guy for asking?

That's because they had already repented, they only needed to believe.

In other places, eg Acts 2:37-28, the apostle only says to repent and be baptized, because they already believed in Christ.

There is one place where they say salvation is a choice and that is Acts 2:40.

From these examples we can see that the gospel is tailored towards the particular audience being spoken to.
In fact in the bible are a number of gospels, there is not really one thing called "the gospel".

 

[Strypes]

Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Acts 16:25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, "Do not harm yourself, for we are all here." 29 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God. 35 But when it was day, the magistrates sent the police, saying, "Let those men go." 36 And the jailer reported these words to Paul, saying, "The magistrates have sent to let you go. Therefore come out now and go in peace." 37 But Paul said to them, "They have beaten us publicly, uncondemned, men who are Roman citizens, and have thrown us into prison; and do they now throw us out secretly? No! Let them come themselves and take us out." 38 The police reported these words to the magistrates, and they were afraid when they heard that they were Roman citizens. 39 So they came and apologized to them. And they took them out and asked them to leave the city. 40 So they went out of the prison and visited Lydia. And when they had seen the brothers, they encouraged them and departed.

I like to see the passages referred to in context.

Back to that in a minute..

First lets review ...

I said...

The answer is still the same as it has been through out this thread. You choose to forgive. You make the choice to forgive. You decide you want to forgive.

If you want to be obedient to Christ command, then you choose to forgive.

We forgive others because we ourselves are forgiven.

We are fully forgiven and we strive to fully forgive.

So you want some tips on how to proceed after you have made the choice to forgive someone?

I can help with that.

Pray for them.

And Spockrates did his little twist....

Thank you! So once I choose to forgive, because God forgave me, the way I do this forgiveness is to pray for the forgiven

Forgiveness is the choice to forgive because it is a decision you make. Once you have decided you wish to forgive in obedience to Christ, something you can actively do to help you stay firm to your choice to forgive is to pray for the one that wronged you.

Praying is not the forgiving. Praying for those that have wronged you is another of Jesus' commands and it really helps to affirm your decision to forgive and strengthen you to press on.

Matthew 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Regarding Jesus forgiving those that crucified him. The choice was made before He spoke the words.

In fact in the bible are a number of gospels, there is not really one thing called "the gospel".

Yes there is. It is the good news that salvation has come through Christ Jesus!


So back to the passages in Acts where folks were saved at Pentecost and the Philipian Jailer believed,...

All of them realize they had a need and asked pertinent questions. (Asking questions is a good thing when there are no ulterior motives.)

 

[Strypes]

A final thought...

Though the act of praying is not the choice to forgive, whist praying, you can make the choice to forgive. You can choose to forgive at anytime.