Sinless Perfection And The Truth That Sets You Free

[Born Again 2004]

Sinless Perfection is heresy!
When heresy is used today with reference to Christianity, it denotes the formal denial or doubt of a core doctrine of the Christian faith as defined by one or more of the Christian Churches.
A person who promotes his / her ability to be sinless, commits heresy against the church. They often quote many scriptures to support their claim but in error, which holds them in bondage to their lack of understanding of what a human is as compared to God.
One of the often quoted scriptures reveals their error, is in John 8. Specifically John 8: 32-34 pertains to truth and practicing sin...anyone who practices sin.
Jesus is not saying that the truth will set you free from sinning, it will set you free from the consequence of sin. And certainly Christians do not purposely or practice sin. Romans 8:1.

 

[B-A-C]

Do you have any scripture that says we "have" to keep sinning? It is a requirement?
Here are a few that say we don't have to.

Luke 1:6; They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

John 8:11; She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."

John 5:14; Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."

Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2; May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 6:12; Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
Rom 6:13; and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:14; For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Rom 6:17; But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18; and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Rom 6:22; But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

There is grace and forgiveness for those who repent.

Luke 5:32; "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
Luke 24:47; and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
2 Cor 7:10; For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without reservation, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

If anything... I would say those who teach we can continue to live in sin while we are Christians would be the "heresy".

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

How will we know these people? These false teachers...

Matt 7:15; "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Matt 7:16; "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
Matt 7:17; "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
Matt 7:18; "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt 7:20; "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Simple... if they have "bad fruit" (sin) they are a false teacher. If they are teachers others it's OK to have bad fruit... they are a false teacher. You can't have both "good fruit" and "bad fruit", if you have bad fruit.. you are a bad tree.

 

[Hekuran]

Oh dear. I have a feeling this thread will not go well. :zipped:

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You can't have both "good fruit" and "bad fruit", if you have bad fruit.. you are a bad tree.

Actually yes sir one can.
They may do well in one area and produce good fruit and fail in another and produce bad fruit.

That's why it's important to be open unto the Holy Spirit and ALLOW Him to prune you and remove the non producing branches.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Do you have any scripture that says we "have" to keep sinning? It is a requirement?
Here are a few that say we don't have to.

First, thank you for responding. Secondly, I am at a loss, not that you have not acted with unusual thoughts before but, C'mon, where in the world did you come up with such a question....of course I haven't any such scripture that don't exist !!!

 

[B-A-C]

Oh dear. I have a feeling this thread will not go well

It doesn't have to be as bad as all that

I'm just trying to put forth another point of view. We have some on here who say.. you have to be 100% "perfect", 100% of the time.
Furthermore, this has to happen the "instant" you become a Christian, otherwise you aren't saved.

I am not saying that.

Then we have the other extreme. You never never be good, you can never be perfect, no matter how you try even if you try for 100 years.
God isn't going to judge you for your sins. He only cares whether or not you believe in Jesus. So you can sin all you want, in fact you'll
never be able to stop. You "have" to sin.

I'm not saying this either.

But maybe there is a medium between those two extremes. Maybe we will never be 100% perfect 100% of the time.
But we don't have to be slaves to sin either. In fact we don't "have" to sin at all. We sin because we choose to. No one makes us.
(despite Net Chaplain inferring that God causes us to sin).

I hate putting up numbers.. because then the numbers become a formula or a doctrine or something weird...
But I will take a chance here.... hopefully this won't get blown out of proportion.

20 years ago....
I cursed 365 days a year.
I looked a pornography over 300 days a year.
I made a woman get an abortion.
I went drinking, and probably got drunk 80 days a year.
I went gambling at the casino's maybe 20 days a year.
I lusted after women I wasn't marred to 365 days a year.
I never gave to any homeless people or orphanages.
I never visited sick people.

If I have to grade myself on a scale from 1 to 10. I would say I was about a 1. maybe a 2 on a good day.

Last year. (I'm not perfect, I'm still not 100%)
I think maybe I cursed once or twice when I hurt myself.
I don't look at pornography at all!! 100% on this one.
No abortions. 100% on this one.
I had a couple of drinks last year. Didn't get drunk at all. I think I had a drink for new years and one of my step sons birthday.
I didn't go gambling at all last year. 100% on this one.
I haven't lusted over any women I wasn't married to in the last year. 100% on this one!!
I gave to charities 14 or 15 times last year. I could have given more.
I visited 3 or 4 sick people in hospitals last year. I didn't visit everyone I knew.
I lead 2 Bible studies and a home group.

If I had to grade myself on a scale from 1 to 10. I would say maybe I was an 8 or 9 on a good day. Could I do better? Of course I could.
But I don't say to myself... oh I'm just gonna sin anyway.. so it doesn't matter. I don't tell myself I can never overcome sin.
I don't tell myself it's heresy to believe I can overcome sin. The fact is... I've overcome at lot!! Now that may sound like bragging.
But I just consider it my testimony. It wasn't me who overcame these things. It was Christ within me.
But if I was still in the same place I was 20 years ago. ... what is Christ within me doing? Nothing.

 

[Dave M]

When I compare myself to Jesus I realize how un-holly I am. I am not sure I would be willing to lay my life down for some of you guys. Yet Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as our self.

Sure I have made leaps and bounds in conquering the sins I used to be a slave to thanks to Jesus. But there is still a selfish side when compared to the most Holly.

Sure compared to most of the people I know I do not look selfish or act selfish and I am willing to bet most people that know me would say I am one of the most unselfish people they know. Yet when compared to Jesus I fail miserably and know I am selfish.

Philippians 2:4
Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

do I follow the above verse 24/7 I wish I could say yes but sometimes I avoid phone calls because I know someone is going to want a favor or help with something.

these are the things that make me say I am not perfect.


I think this thread could be very good if we all learn how to respect people who have different ideas then our own, I know I am as guilty as the next guy being rude to someone because they do not agree with my idea of what scripture says, that to makes me not perfect.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

When I compare myself to Jesus I realize how un-holly I am. I am not sure I would be willing to lay my life down for some of you guys. Yet Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as our self.

Sure I have made leaps and bounds in conquering the sins I used to be a slave to thanks to Jesus. But there is still a selfish side when compared to the most Holly.

Sure compared to most of the people I know I do not look selfish or act selfish and I am willing to bet most people that know me would say I am one of the most unselfish people they know. Yet when compared to Jesus I fail miserably and know I am selfish.

Philippians 2:4
Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

do I follow the above verse 24/7 I wish I could say yes but sometimes I avoid phone calls because I know someone is going to want a favor or help with something.

these are the things that make me say I am not perfect.


I think this thread could be very good if we all learn how to respect people who have different ideas then our own, I know I am as guilty as the next guy being rude to someone because they do not agree with my idea of what scripture says, that to makes me not perfect.

Amen my Brother Amen !

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Blessings to you and your Family
Have a Joyfully Blessed Weekend

 

[Born Again 2004]

I think we all...well, most of us, agree that sin and perfection are not in the eyes of the human but that of God. After all who defines them both, certainly not our secular world.
I have been accused of being too dogmatic , perhaps so, I also see God being dogmatic in many ways but, though something like faith comes easy, I am woefully short on God's love....I can turn the other cheek for so long! I do allot of Mia Kulpa for that and other things! So, I understand relying on God's good grace to get me through...I certainly know I fall short and my efforts are unworthy. I have come a long way too and have a long way to go!

 

[Rockerduck]

My College dean said it best; Christians are not sinless, they just sin less.

 

[amadeus2]

Sinless Perfection is heresy!
When heresy is used today with reference to Christianity, it denotes the formal denial or doubt of a core doctrine of the Christian faith as defined by one or more of the Christian Churches.

And why should we suppose or believe that the "christian churches" of today are better than what Jesus faced with the Jewish religious leaders of his day as a man on earth 2000 years ago? You call it heresy to stand against the "christian churches" and what was it those leaders called Jesus? The Church consists of the people who stand on the Lord's side, not the leaders of the church organizations or the church organizations themselves and their established creeds and rules. We are to stand on the Word of God as it is written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Core doctrine? The Catholic Church for centuries had core doctrine and still have core doctrine and the Scribes and Pharisees had core doctrine. They were in error because they decided what right or wrong instead of asking of God and trusting in Him. Are we now trusting in man?

A person who promotes his / her ability to be sinless, commits heresy against the church. They often quote many scriptures to support their claim but in error, which holds them in bondage to their lack of understanding of what a human is as compared to God.
One of the often quoted scriptures reveals their error, is in John 8. Specifically John 8: 32-34 pertains to truth and practicing sin...anyone who practices sin.
Jesus is not saying that the truth will set you free from sinning, it will set you free from the consequence of sin. And certainly Christians do not purposely or practice sin. Romans 8:1.

What is a Christian? You say they don't purposely practice sin. I would say rather that when they walk alone trusting only in themselves or in the men of their churches they cannot help themselves. They lie to themselves and to God when they call themselves a follower of Christ but follow their own hearts and their own churches. The only Way to not practice sin is to follow God... without regard to which church group to which you may give some little bit of your time.

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

"O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!" Psalm 119:5

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

 

[Born Again 2004]

And why should we suppose or believe that the "christian churches" of today are better than what Jesus faced with the Jewish religious leaders of his day as a man on earth 2000 years ago?

• They are not...never said they were!

You call it heresy to stand against the "christian churches" and what was it those leaders called Jesus?

• Never said that...
• I said it goes against a core doctrine and faith of many Christian Churches, not all Christian Churches and, as apposed to the doctrines of say Jewish and Muslim doctrines!

The Church consists of the people who stand on the Lord's side, not the leaders of the church organizations or the church organizations themselves and their established creeds and rules

• The Church consists of many people who have Christ in them, they make up the Christian Church universal! Jesus doesn't exist in the church it's self.
• Were did I say anything about the Leaders of a Church, as far as I know, some of them do not have Christ in them!

We are to stand on the Word of God as it is written in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

• Is it written in your heart that you are sinless and perfect? So be it, I pray you never fail, not once!
• John 8: 32-34 ( read the More)

 

[Curtis]

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

God told Abram to walk before him and be thou "perfect".

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Abram's "perfect" was not in him being "sinless", it was in his believing God "perfectly, by being fully persuaded that only God could perform what he (God) had promised him.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

 

[Born Again 2004]

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

God told Abram to walk before him and be thou "perfect".

Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Abram's "perfect" was not in him being "sinless", it was in his believing God "perfectly, by being fully persuaded that only God could perform what he (God) had promised him.

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Great addition to the thread!

 

[amadeus2]

• They are not...never said they were!

• Never said that...
• I said it goes against a core doctrine and faith of many Christian Churches, not all Christian Churches and, as apposed to the doctrines of say Jewish and Muslim doctrines!

• So then must it be the majority that is right rather than God and His Son? Jesus went to the cross alone. He was willing to walk alone among men if no man would follow him, for in no case would He compromise to ease the feelings and difficulties of men.

The Church consists of many people who have Christ in them, they make up the Christian Church universal! Jesus doesn't exist in the church it's self.

• Were did I say anything about the Leaders of a Church, as far as I know, some of them do not have Christ in them!

• Of who else could you be speaking when you speak about what they believe, but the leadership? They will sometimes parrot good rules to live by.
• As to the general masses of Christians: Something is seriously wrong in the organized Christian churches today. If it were not so this world of men in which we live which be a much better place than it is. It is following too closely in the steps of natural children of Israel. They were God's anointed people, but they [with few exceptions] went their own way instead of His. We have also been anointed with the Holy Ghost and we have the written Bible available to us as no one has had it before yet we [with few exceptions] also have been going our own way instead of His. I would be very slow to say we are doing things the way we should be doing them when we with our mouths deny what He has promised and say it cannot be done.
• God is able, but God works through people and too few it appears to me are willing to allow Him to work in them and through them. They are generally only willing only as long as it does interfere with what they want to do... which is generally a very fleshly direction.

• Is it written in your heart that you are sinless and perfect? So be it, I pray you never fail, not once!
• John 8: 32-34 ( read the More)

What is written in my heart was written there by God. If it is good, it is my testimony. If it is evil it is where I need Him to work on me some more.

Who are you to question it?

I question my errors all of the time. I confess to God all of the time. I ask God to let me 'pray without ceasing and to rejoice in Him always', because I know that alone I cannot do those things. I also know that our God is able even in those things... that is to bring me to sinlessness and perfection if I keep on surrendering to Him. I do not deny Him by saying I cannot. Rather I stand on His Word and confess that He can in me.

Give God the glory!

 

[Dave M]

was there one person in the bible other then Jesus that claimed to be perfect ,well I do not know of one person.

Mosses was not allowed in the promise land because of his disobedience.

No not one person, however there was one person that thought he was just about perfect he made claims of being sinless and Jesus put that person right in his place and sent him down the road, I am speaking of the Rich young ruler

Funny this is the only guy that I am aware of going around basically saying he was sinless, it did not end well for the fellow he was blind.

Luke 18:18-30
And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” .

 

[amadeus2]

was there one person in the bible other then Jesus that claimed to be perfect ,well I do not know of one person.

"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1
And who wrote the book of Job?

Because men did not say it does not mean that they were not. To say it without being led to do so by the Holy Ghost would likely come of pride and therefore sin and therefore would make it a lie. But to deny that we have attained it when God has done the work in us and He asks us to open our mouth and speak could be a worse error. God certainly call on us to be perfect in both the OT and the NT. Did no one ever accomplish it? Is God lacking in the power? What is God's Word?

"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." Gen 17:1

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

"Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy." I Chron 29:9

"For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars." II Chron 16:9

"A Psalm of David. I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O LORD, will I sing.
I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart." Psalm 101:1-2

"For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it." Prov 2:21

"And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD." Ezek 16:14

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

And if all of that quote above is God's Word, what does He does about His Word?

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

We should be very slow to take hold of the cliché beliefs of men and their churches and conclude that of course they must be right...

 

[At Peace]

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us..

Hi, Curtis.
If we examine these two verses without the context of the whole chapter, we can see they counter each other.
Verse 7 says ALL our sin can be cleansed...if we walk in the light.
Can't those who remain in the light say they have no sin?
John is writing to a church, about two kinds of men.
Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in the darkness.
Those who walk in the light have had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. They CAN say they have no sin.
Those who walk in darkness cannot say they have no sin, because they do continue to commit sin.
John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B style of writing. (Also used by Paul in Romans 8...Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh.)
A applies to those who walk in the light and B applies to those who walk in the darkness.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 refer to those who walk in the light.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 refer to those who walk in the darkness.

What about those who obey Peter's Acts 2:38 exhortation?
They have been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their past sins.
Can't they say they have no sin? For a minute? For an hour...or a day?
One who truly repents of sin will remain cleansed till God calls them home.
More sin manifests a false repentance from sin.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

More sin manifests a false repentance from sin.

if this is so, is there a solution and if so, what is it?

"Can I attain to it?"


Bless you ....><>

 

[Curtis]

Hi, Curtis.
If we examine these two verses without the context of the whole chapter, we can see they counter each other.
Verse 7 says ALL our sin can be cleansed...if we walk in the light.
Can't those who remain in the light say they have no sin?
John is writing to a church, about two kinds of men.
Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in the darkness.
Those who walk in the light have had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. They CAN say they have no sin.
Those who walk in darkness cannot say they have no sin, because they do continue to commit sin.
John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B style of writing. (Also used by Paul in Romans 8...Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh.)
A applies to those who walk in the light and B applies to those who walk in the darkness.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 refer to those who walk in the light.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 refer to those who walk in the darkness.

What about those who obey Peter's Acts 2:38 exhortation?
They have been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their past sins.
Can't they say they have no sin? For a minute? For an hour...or a day?
One who truly repents of sin will remain cleansed till God calls them home.
More sin manifests a false repentance from sin.

The only way to "reconcile" the "light cleansing us from all sin", and "if we say we have no sin we deceive our self's" is by understanding this. God only holds man accountable for what he knows. As it is written, "....unto whom much is given, much is required.." (Luke 12:48) A man is required to "walk in the light that he has", which means according to the revelation he has of the Word of God. Man is to walk according to that understanding he has. If a man does this, then the blood of Jesus Christ will cleanse him from all sin, but man can not say he has no sin or else we would never need the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from anything. This all has to do with growing spiritually. The Lord knows man is not going to get to a mature spiritual state as it takes many many years, if not through eternity as he learns and grows spiritually.