Sinless Perfection And The Truth That Sets You Free

[Born Again 2004]

If John the baptist was required to baptize by water it must be a requirement no?

No! John worked under the confines of the Old Covenant....Jesus changed everything when he died on the cross and ushered in the New Covenant. We are no longer under works but grace. Ephesians 2: 8-9 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Hadsa]

No! John worked under the confines of the Old Covenant....Jesus changed everything when he died on the cross and ushered in the New Covenant. We are no longer under works but grace. Ephesians 2: 8-9 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

So, are you saying we are not to- (as an assembly) encourage what scripture says, and baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? This is of the New Covenant as well, no? I am well aware that this Rite was established in the Old Covenant there are many precursors to what John was called to do and what became established in the New Covenant.
Naaman Cured of Leprosy 2Kings 5:9-11
…9So Naaman came with his horses and chariots and stood at the door of Elisha’s house. 10Then Elisha sent him a messenger, who said, “Go and wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored, and you will be clean.” 11But Naaman went away angry, saying, “I thought that he would surely come out, stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the spot to cure my leprosy.…
2Kings 5:14
14So Naaman went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, according to the word of the man of God, and his flesh was restored and became like that of a little child, and he was clean.


In the Great Commission, Christ charged the apostles to make disciples of all nations and to baptize them in the name of the Holy Trinity. So what are you saying?

 

[Hadsa]

When is baptism by water a requirement according to you Born Again 2004? Should it be removed from scripture so those who put this Rite into practice are not condemned ?

 

[Born Again 2004]

When is baptism by water a requirement according to you Born Again 2004? Should it be removed from scripture so those who put this Rite into practice are not condemned ?

Who has the power to remove any thing from the Bible but God alone? Please, though you probably have a right, don't take offense...I know that water baptism is sacred to many and, believe it or not, I do respect that....I , me, have a different perspective than many....I am not saying water baptism is wrong....heck, I think everyone should do it.....I did!!!....All I am saying is it is not the only precursor to or aftermath to salvation. Simply put, God says we are saved by faith through Grace and I see that happening in or out of the water.

 

[Hadsa]

Well that is only an opinion then, Born Again 2004. I see ALL that which the Word established as Grace offered to us, this I say in faith. Do we have to believe Christ in order to receive grace or is grace like becoming a robot with no choice? Do we still have freewill to receive grace ? Is there any collaboration by the recipient for grace to be given such as a yes?

 

[Born Again 2004]

Well that is only an opinion then, Born Again 2004. I see ALL that which the Word established as Grace offered to us, this I say in faith. Do we have to believe Christ in order to receive grace or is grace like becoming a robot with no choice? Do we still have freewill to receive grace ? Is there any collaboration by the recipient for grace to be given such as a yes?

Yes an opinion...but based on what I perceive from the scriptures and the Gospel!

 

[Born Again 2004]

Well that is only an opinion then, Born Again 2004. I see ALL that which the Word established as Grace offered to us, this I say in faith. Do we have to believe Christ in order to receive grace or is grace like becoming a robot with no choice? Do we still have freewill to receive grace ? Is there any collaboration by the recipient for grace to be given such as a yes?

Also, let me ask this...is everyone that goes through a water immersion...saved?

 

[Hadsa]

Also, let me ask this...is everyone that goes through a water immersion...saved?

That is like asking -is everyone who says they are Christian really Christian. There is a thread on this. More correctly is: if one follows all the tenets Christ established are they saved- yes! If one rejects certain tenets are they saved? And which ones should be rejected, if any?

 

[Born Again 2004]

That is like asking -is everyone who says they are Christian really Christian. There is a thread on this. More correctly is: if one follows all the tenets Christ established are they saved- yes! If one rejects certain tenets are they saved? And which ones should be rejected, if any?

I think you support my premise without even knowing it! All true Born Again Christians have been fused with the Holy Spirit....not all those that are water baptized are Born Again...why?...one must truly believe and satisfy God alone....water baptism is not a requirement!

 

[Sue D.]

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

The Samaritan people heard the Word of God, believed, and then were baptized. These were new believers.

Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

The apostles sent Peter, and John back to Samaria not the proclaim the gospel, but so that the Sarmatians would receive the Holy Spirit.

Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Another example of being filled with the Holy Spirit as being a separate experience is found here..

Act 19:1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
Act 19:2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
Act 19:3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.”
Act 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

It is said that the book of Acts is a transitional period. The Holy Spirit comes first. As the Holy Spirit enables -- the speaking in tongues and any other gift that the Holy Spirit gives a person. And there's been a question as to whether Biblical speaking in tongues is active today.

The first time I read through the entire book of Acts, I could see where various denominations get their beliefs from. The speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, healing, etc. But the Basis for salvation is what needs to be understood. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God. His virgin birth through Mary, His death, burial and bodily resurrection after the 3 days. Nothing more is Required to obtain salvation. In the heart a person believes and with his mouth, he confesses Jesus Christ -- he shares with others.

Baptism by immersion is the first act of a believer out of obedience to Christ. It does not seal our salvation.

 

[Hadsa]

I think you support my premise without even knowing it! All true Born Again Christians have been fused with the Holy Spirit....not all those that are water baptized are Born Again...why?...one must truly believe and satisfy God alone....water baptism is not a requirement!

You can think what you want. All I know is- all is as the Word commanded, including water baptism. Nothing is out of His jurisdiction including what John the baptist was created to do and establish. It is required! if not, then the apostles would not obey His commandments.
The Great Commission Mathew 28:18-20
…18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…

The Lord commanded them to to do this and they were to teach all that the Lord commanded them to do and OBEY! I am quite sure of my Lord's teachings. What you think is of no consequence to me. I follow the lamb wherever He goes, He was baptized by water and His apostle were and he commanded them to teach all they were taught to obey. Do you fancy yourself above the foundation?

 

[Born Again 2004]

You can think what you want. All I know is- all is as the Word commanded, including water baptism. Nothing is out of His jurisdiction including what John the baptist was created to do and establish. It is required! if not, then the apostles would not obey His commandments.
The Great Commission Mathew 28:18-20
…18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…

The Lord commanded them to to do this and they were to teach all that the Lord commanded them to do and OBEY! I am quite sure of my Lord's teachings. What you think is of no consequence to me. I follow the lamb wherever He goes, He was baptized by water and His apostle were and he commanded them to teach all they were taught to obey. Do you fancy yourself above the foundation?

No, but I was saved outside of water and before the foundation
Look, lets just agree to disagree and move on Brother!

 

[Hadsa]

There are many places in scripture that mentions "baptism", and in most of those scriptures they do not say "water baptism". Every single born again Christian is "baptized" automatically when confessing Jesus Christ to be their savior.
This is done by the Holy Spirit, who just so happens to be likened unto water!

1Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

No physical water is used when a person is "baptized" into the body of Christ!

Water baptism is only a outward action (confession) showing what has already happened on the inside of a believer.

Philip and the Ethiopian Acts 8:35-36
…35Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. 36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?” …

It is obvious the one must receive the good news first:
Philip and the Ethiopian

26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go south to the desert road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official in charge of the entire treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his return was sitting in his chariot, reading Isaiah the prophet.

29The Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to that chariot and stay by it.”

30So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,

and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,

so He did not open His mouth.

33In His humiliation He was deprived of justice.

Who can recount His descendants?

For His life was removed from the earth.”a

34“Tell me,” said the eunuch, “who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”

35Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?”b 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.

39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing. 40But Philip appeared at Azotus and traveled through that region, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he came to Caesarea.
I guess you must believe first then get baptized. I have said this. All believers at some point get baptized with water. You must believe the Word first, which is spoken to those who must know by the Holy Spirit . Spirit, water, Blood.The point baptism by water can not be taken out of the Word.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

You can think what you want. All I know is- all is as the Word commanded, including water baptism. Nothing is out of His jurisdiction including what John the baptist was created to do and establish. It is required! if not, then the apostles would not obey His commandments.
The Great Commission Mathew 28:18-20
…18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”…

The Lord commanded them to to do this and they were to teach all that the Lord commanded them to do and OBEY! I am quite sure of my Lord's teachings. What you think is of no consequence to me. I follow the lamb wherever He goes, He was baptized by water and His apostle were and he commanded them to teach all they were taught to obey. Do you fancy yourself above the foundation?

And He spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted

Luke 18: 9-14

 

[Hadsa]

And He spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted

Luke 18: 9-14

Great verses!

 

[Curtis]

Philip and the Ethiopian Acts 8:35-36
…35Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus. 36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?” …

It is obvious the one must receive the good news first:
Philip and the Ethiopian

26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go south to the desert road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official in charge of the entire treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his return was sitting in his chariot, reading Isaiah the prophet.

29The Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to that chariot and stay by it.”

30So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:

“He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,

and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,

so He did not open His mouth.

33In His humiliation He was deprived of justice.

Who can recount His descendants?

For His life was removed from the earth.”a

34“Tell me,” said the eunuch, “who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”

35Then Philip began with this very Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36As they traveled along the road and came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptized?”b 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.

39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing. 40But Philip appeared at Azotus and traveled through that region, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he came to Caesarea.
I guess you must believe first then get baptized. I have said this. All believers at some point get baptized with water. You must believe the Word first, which is spoken to those who must know by the Holy Spirit . Spirit, water, Blood.The point baptism by water can not be taken out of the Word.

You forgot to mention a very important verse, verse 37...

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

This man became a child of God right when he confessed Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, and that before being baptized.

 

[Sue D.]

@Hadsa -- the Gospel unto salvation = 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 -- vs 2 "By this Gospel you are saved.....vs 3 "that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the 3rd day according to the Scriptures."

And Why could Jesus Christ's death and resurrection have any 'merit' for us? Because Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth, Jesus Is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

I had an uncle who'd been a non-believer all of his life -- a good guy, a family man and good to his friends, relatives -- he never had time for religion, though, Until he got sick and was diagnosed with cancer. Only then would he listen to one of his nephews about God. He accepted Christ as his personal Savior and immediately had a desire to read God's Word -- he died three weeks later. Baptized -- no. But he loved God and his only regret was that he hadn't listened sooner in life. But he knew he would soon be with His Savior. And for him, that's what mattered.

So - yes -- there Are times -- circumstances when baptizm by immersion just isn't possible. The soldiers on the battle field -- accept Christ , yes, and they might never make it home or to a water source -- are they 'saved' -- absolutely. It is only by the grace of God that Any of us are saved. He doesn't have special grace that He gives to special people. because All people are special to Him. John 3:16 "For God so loved the World, that He gave His only begotten Son that who so ever believeth in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

And, yes, the Great Commission -- Matthew 28 -- Jesus told His disciples to go out to the world and make disciples -- baptizing them in the name of the Father, etc. etc. --- under normal conditions -- 'we' show publically who we are following -- Jesus Christ. In some countries -- being publically baptized is a person's death sentense. The family will hold a funeral and that member of the family no longer exists for them. That is how seriously personal religious beliefs are taken by certain religious belief systems. The people who Do accept Jesus Christ as the Promised Messiah // as the true Son of God // can have a hard life. Can be killed.

Is Christ Making us be baptized? No. Is He Making us follow Him? No. Is He saying "love Me or Else" no. But we Are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul,mind and No one Else. No substitute 'gods'. He doesn't want us straying away -- because it Is HE who made us -- no one else. He died and was buried and rose again for us. No one else did.

 

[Hadsa]

You forgot to mention a very important verse, verse 37...

Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

This man became a child of God right when he confessed Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, and that before being baptized.

Curtis you are creating a conflict where there is none for me because of pride. Obviously this is what is needed , I never questioned that. You are now saying I said you do not need to confess Jesus Christ as your savior.. I never said that and it is disingenuous for you to say i did in order to feel vindicated, I posted scriptures which support my beliefs and not once did i come here stating or professing someone other or something other than Christ. I thought that was a give in. So, I guess you were not baptized by water just by Spirit and blood? I thought the three testify together and are in agreement? I said John came PREACHING a baptism of repentance it is that preaching that men believed, and it was about He who was and is to come who is greater than John and the people believed and were baptized confessing there sins. Not once did I say something contrary to scripture. Here, this is what I will do. I am not meant to fellowship here so no one needs to get mean or upset and say things I never did or said. God Bless!

 

[Curtis]

It is said that the book of Acts is a transitional period. The Holy Spirit comes first. As the Holy Spirit enables -- the speaking in tongues and any other gift that the Holy Spirit gives a person. And there's been a question as to whether Biblical speaking in tongues is active today.

The first time I read through the entire book of Acts, I could see where various denominations get their beliefs from. The speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, healing, etc. But the Basis for salvation is what needs to be understood. That Jesus Christ is the Son of God. His virgin birth through Mary, His death, burial and bodily resurrection after the 3 days. Nothing more is Required to obtain salvation. In the heart a person believes and with his mouth, he confesses Jesus Christ -- he shares with others.

Baptism by immersion is the first act of a believer out of obedience to Christ. It does not seal our salvation.

There will be a day in which "prophecies shall fail", when "tongues will cease", and when "knowledge will pass away", but that day has not yet come. We still have "knowledge" today, and when knowledge pass's away so will all the others. (1 Cor 13:8)

The gifts of the Spirit, and all it brings has not yet passed away as Peter tells us here...…..

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

God is still calling men to himself, and so all these gifts will stay active until the last man has come.

 

[Curtis]

Curtis you are creating a conflict where there is none for me because of pride. Obviously this is what is needed , I never questioned that. You are now saying I said you do not need to confess Jesus Christ as your savior.. I never said that and it is disingenuous for you to say i did in order to feel vindicated, I posted scriptures which support my beliefs and not once did i come here stating or professing someone other or something other than Christ. I thought that was a give in. So, I guess you were not baptized by water just by Spirit and blood? I thought the three testify together and are in agreement? I said John came PREACHING a baptism of repentance it is that preaching that men believed, and it was about He who was and is to come who is greater than John and the people believed and were baptized confessing there sins. Not once did I say something contrary to scripture. Here, this is what I will do. I am not meant to fellowship here so no one needs to get mean or upset and say things I never did or said. God Bless!

I am not being mean in any way! I am just pointing out the obvious. If you want to believe a man can not be saved unless he is water baptized that is OK with me!!! I my self do not see it that way. Have I been water baptized? Of course I have, but my salvation is not based on water baptism, because only the blood of Jesus Christ can wash away sin, not water!