Sinning never ends

[KingJ]

Case for sin never ending:

If we ever say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves 1 John 1:8.

Jesus had one important message for all, repent Luke 5:32. Those that go to hell, go there because they harden their hearts to repentance Heb 3:15. IE They are unrepentant.

Humans go to heaven because they repent of their sin Psalm 51:17, get judged by God for the sincerity of their heart Jer 17:9-10 and are then given faith and a revelation of Jesus being Lord Rom 12:3, 1 Cor 12:3. We go to heaven, because we are washed clean of our sin by Jesus and are covered forever by His blood Heb 10:14. Not because we are able to ''muster up faith'' on par with faith in fairies and Santa Claus or because we attend the correct church.

ONLY God is perfect Mark 10:18 and righteous in ALL His ways Psalm 145:17. Many teach erroneously that one-day in heaven we will be perfect, full-stop. Heb 10:14 says with perfect clarity that we are made perfect to God by the sacrifice of Jesus / forever covered by the blood of Jesus. IE We are perfect to God and will never ever be perfect like God.

Angels will one-day be judged by us 1 Cor 6:3. Judged on what if not their sin? Rebellion? Disobedience?

Angels that have been removed from heaven, have to have hardened their hearts to repentance as we do. There is little difference between us and them Heb 2:7.

As such, sin continues forever in heaven and on earth. Just in heaven, we repent and do not commit 'mortal' sins.

Significance of Mortal sins:

Mortal sins will not take place in heaven. Venial sins will.

When Paul was converted he stopped murdering Christians (Mortal sin) but he continued battling with lessor sins (Venial sins) Rom 15:16.

In 1 Cor 5, Paul isolated a so called 'brethren' in a mortal sin of incest. Note Paul says ''so called'' as this person was never truly a Christian. A Christian cannot continue in mortal sin.

Throughout the OT, especially in Leviticus, sins are categorized. Most notable categorization is that of sins that would get one stoned to death verse those that would not. IE some sins were such an abomination to God that they carried the death penalty. A graphic death of being stoned to death. Think on that for a while. Scripture teaches us that God does not change Psalm 100:5, as such, His views on certain sins outweighing others holds forever. It should be logical, but many Christians are falsely taught to put blinkers on and only believe ''sin is sin''. Sin is sin, there is truth to that. But, sin also has degrees. Teaching sin is sin, full-stop is a half truth, false teaching.

Case for free will:

Anyone with more then half a working brain knows that evil exists as God wants true free will to exist. As...true free will is a good thing and God chooses to be good.

Now, if we cannot sin in heaven, surely that means there is no free will in heaven?

Free will exists now and continues forever and ever. God does not change and we can be fortunate that 'God chooses to be' good. He does what pleases Him Psalm 115:3 and being righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. pleases Him. We know from Rom 9, that God could be partial and evil if He wanted to. But we know from the rest of scripture, that God chooses not to (Calvinists please pay attention).

Those that go to hell have free will before they choose hell and free will in hell. Those that go to heaven, have free will before they choose heaven and free will when in heaven.

Definition of sin:

As God is perfectly good. Not perfect because He is ''God''. Sin is best defined as any kind of rebellion to Him. For true free will to exist, one has to on some level be able to rebel to Him.

Conclusion:

All humans and angels continue to sin forever, those in heaven will never sin at a mortal level. Angels and humans that go to hell, gave in to sin full measure. All in heaven will be quick to repent of any sin.

 

[Johann]

Case for sin never ending:

If we ever say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves 1 John 1:8.

Jesus had one important message for all, repent Luke 5:32. Those that go to hell, go there because they harden their hearts to repentance Heb 3:15. IE They are unrepentant.

Humans go to heaven because they repent of their sin Psalm 51:17, get judged by God for the sincerity of their heart Jer 17:9-10 and are then given faith and a revelation of Jesus being Lord Rom 12:3, 1 Cor 12:3. We go to heaven, because we are washed clean of our sin by Jesus and are covered forever by His blood Heb 10:14. Not because we are able to ''muster up faith'' on par with faith in fairies and Santa Claus or because we attend the correct church.

ONLY God is perfect Mark 10:18 and righteous in ALL His ways Psalm 145:17. Many teach erroneously that one-day in heaven we will be perfect, full-stop. Heb 10:14 says with perfect clarity that we are made perfect to God by the sacrifice of Jesus / forever covered by the blood of Jesus. IE We are perfect to God and will never ever be perfect like God.

Angels will one-day be judged by us 1 Cor 6:3. Judged on what if not their sin? Rebellion? Disobedience?

Angels that have been removed from heaven, have to have hardened their hearts to repentance as we do. There is little difference between us and them Heb 2:7.

As such, sin continues forever in heaven and on earth. Just in heaven, we repent and do not commit 'mortal' sins.

Significance of Mortal sins:

Mortal sins will not take place in heaven. Venial sins will.

When Paul was converted he stopped murdering Christians (Mortal sin) but he continued battling with lessor sins (Venial sins) Rom 15:16.

In 1 Cor 5, Paul isolated a so called 'brethren' in a mortal sin of incest. Note Paul says ''so called'' as this person was never truly a Christian. A Christian cannot continue in mortal sin.

Throughout the OT, especially in Leviticus, sins are categorized. Most notable categorization is that of sins that would get one stoned to death verse those that would not. IE some sins were such an abomination to God that they carried the death penalty. A graphic death of being stoned to death. Think on that for a while. Scripture teaches us that God does not change Psalm 100:5, as such, His views on certain sins outweighing others holds forever. It should be logical, but many Christians are falsely taught to put blinkers on and only believe ''sin is sin''. Sin is sin, there is truth to that. But, sin also has degrees. Teaching sin is sin, full-stop is a half truth, false teaching.

Case for free will:

Anyone with more then half a working brain knows that evil exists as God wants true free will to exist. As...true free will is a good thing and God chooses to be good.

Now, if we cannot sin in heaven, surely that means there is no free will in heaven?

Free will exists now and continues forever and ever. God does not change and we can be fortunate that 'God chooses to be' good. He does what pleases Him Psalm 115:3 and being righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. pleases Him. We know from Rom 9, that God could be partial and evil if He wanted to. But we know from the rest of scripture, that God chooses not to (Calvinists please pay attention).

Those that go to hell have free will before they choose hell and free will in hell. Those that go to heaven, have free will before they choose heaven and free will when in heaven.

Definition of sin:

As God is perfectly good. Not perfect because He is ''God''. Sin is best defined as any kind of rebellion to Him. For true free will to exist, one has to on some level be able to rebel to Him.

Conclusion:

All humans and angels continue to sin forever, those in heaven will never sin at a mortal level. Angels that were cast out gave in to sin full measure. All in heaven will be quick to repent of any sin.

Christians struggle with sin because we, in this life, are still sinners. The presence of sin in us will not be eradicated until that glorious day when we see Jesus face to face. What a day that will be! But until then, we fight sin by faith, and we can experience assurance inside the fight. But we also believe there are forms of “willful sin” that evidence a heart that has not been saved. Which leads to today’s question from Josh.

“Hello, Pastor John. My question is regarding some of those hard verses in the book of Hebrews, specifically Hebrews 10:26–29. The writer seems to be speaking about the ability to lose salvation by engaging in ‘willful sin,’ as it has been called. My question: What is the opposite of a ‘willful sin’? Is it an accidental sin? Or something else? It seems to me that, due to the presence of the Holy Spirit’s conviction, all sin done by the believer is done willfully. Is there something I am not seeing within these verses?”

Josh is right. Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 6 often give people the impression that a person possesses the fullness of salvation and then loses it. These texts can even look that way, but there are clues that this is not what the author of Hebrews wants to communicate.

Josh’s question is twofold:

1. Do these verses teach that we can lose our salvation?

2. What does Hebrews 10:26 mean by referring to “sinning deliberately” (or “willingly”), since in one sense all sin is an act of the will and thus deliberate?

Two Kinds of Willing
The key verse that he’s referring to goes like this: “For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26). In other words, we’re beyond salvation.

“What destroys the soul is an eager, deliberate, willing, persistent, settled pattern of sin.”
Now, two observations about this phrase “go on sinning deliberately” are really important.

First, the word deliberately translates the Greek hekousiōs. This word is used in 1 Peter 5:2 like this: “Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly [hekousiōs].” Willingly — here is the same word that we translate as deliberately in Hebrews 10:26.

Now, what this usage shows (and the reason I cite it) is that there are two different kinds of willing, aren’t there? One is eager and wholehearted, and the other is under compulsion.

In both cases, one could argue that the elders are in fact exercising their will to shepherd the flock of God. In the one case, it’s glad. It’s an act that engages the whole will. It’s happy and energized. In the other case, it’s begrudging, an act that evidently goes against significant parts of the will because they would rather be doing something else. They don’t really want to shepherd the flock of God, but for money or for fame or to avoid guilty feelings they gut it out and shepherd the flock of God.

Sins That Destroy
This is a correction to Josh’s assumption that all sinning is equally willing — or all human acts are equally willing — since all acts, including sin, are acts of the will. That’s true. They are acts of the will. We choose them.

This text, Hebrews 10:26, is saying something more than that the sin which destroys the soul is an act of the will. Of course, it is, but it’s more than that. All sins are acts of the will, and not all sins destroy. It’s a more intentional, eager, wholehearted act of the will. An act which shows there isn’t a real identity of spiritual newness inside, which acts as a constraint holding back the will, at least in part.

Patterns of Sin
Now here’s the second thing to notice in the phrase “go on sinning deliberately” [or “willingly” or “eagerly”].” It’s that phrase “go on sinning,” which is a good translation of the present tense of the Greek verb for sin.

In other words, it’s not a single act; it’s not a few acts; it’s not periodic acts. It’s rather a settled, persistent continuation in sin. What destroys the soul, what puts it beyond forgiveness in verse 26 is not sin per se, but an eager, deliberate, willing, persistent, settled pattern of sin.

“If we don’t hold fast to the end, then we never had come to share in Christ.”
We can see how serious this is by looking at what comes just before and what comes just after verse 26. Verse 26 begins with the word for, which shows what kind of sin is being referred to in the preceding verses — namely, the sin of forsaking the Christian fellowship and rejecting all brotherly exhortation. In other words, this person is walking away from Christ and his church.

Then if you look after verse 26, especially at verse 29, you see that the pattern of sin is so deep and repeated that it’s called “trampling underfoot the Son of God” and “profaning the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified,” and “outraging the Spirit of grace” (see Hebrews 10:29).

Right here is where it looks like we can lose our salvation because of the reference “by which he was sanctified.” By such a deliberate, continued, settled pattern of sin, you can profane the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified. Which sounds like, “Oh, well, he was saved. But now he’s beyond forgiveness. So you can lose your salvation.”

There are two passages in Hebrews that keep me from going there.

Lost and Found
I have two passages that stop me from saying that his reference to some kind of sanctified condition for the person who is lost means that we can have the full experience of salvation in Christ and be lost or lose it. There are two passages, Hebrews 10:14 and Hebrews 3:14.

Here’s Hebrews 10:14 (see what you think): “For by a single offering” — that’s the offering of Christ — “[God] has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” In other words, there is a kind of being sanctified that absolutely guarantees perfection for all time. In other words, nobody is lost who is experiencing this kind of sanctification.

“There is a kind of sinning that is more deliberate, more eager, more persistent than the way a genuine believer sins.”
Here’s the second one, Hebrews 3:14: “For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.”

Note, it doesn’t say, “We will come to share in Christ if we hold fast to the end.” It says, “We have come to share in Christ if we hold fast to the end,” which means that if we don’t hold fast, like the person in Hebrews 10:26, then we never had come to share in Christ. That’s the clear teaching of Hebrews 3:14.

We didn’t lose our share in Christ. We never had it.

United with Christ
My conclusion is that the experience of sanctification referred to in the lost person of Hebrews 10:26 and 10:29 is a measure of God-influenced moral renovation in a person that has been absorbed by being part of the church, professing some kind of faith, being attracted by many things about the Christian faith and Christian people, but never really coming to believe in Christ in such a way as to be united to him — to have a share in him and his eternal life and salvation.

My answer to Josh is

1. No, I don’t think genuine believers in Christ lose their salvation.

2. I think there is a kind of sinning that is more deliberate, more eager, more persistent than the way a genuine believer sins — sins that are confessed and forgiven.
Piper.

 

[KingJ]

Christians struggle with sin because we, in this life, are still sinners. The presence of sin in us will not be eradicated until that glorious day when we see Jesus face to face. What a day that will be! But until then, we fight sin by faith, and we can experience assurance inside the fight. But we also believe there are forms of “willful sin” that evidence a heart that has not been saved. Which leads to today’s question from Josh.

“Hello, Pastor John. My question is regarding some of those hard verses in the book of Hebrews, specifically Hebrews 10:26–29. The writer seems to be speaking about the ability to lose salvation by engaging in ‘willful sin,’ as it has been called. My question: What is the opposite of a ‘willful sin’? Is it an accidental sin? Or something else? It seems to me that, due to the presence of the Holy Spirit’s conviction, all sin done by the believer is done willfully. Is there something I am not seeing within these verses?”

Josh is right. Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 6 often give people the impression that a person possesses the fullness of salvation and then loses it. These texts can even look that way, but there are clues that this is not what the author of Hebrews wants to communicate.

Josh’s question is twofold:

1. Do these verses teach that we can lose our salvation?

2. What does Hebrews 10:26 mean by referring to “sinning deliberately” (or “willingly”), since in one sense all sin is an act of the will and thus deliberate?

Two Kinds of Willing
The key verse that he’s referring to goes like this: “For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26). In other words, we’re beyond salvation.

“What destroys the soul is an eager, deliberate, willing, persistent, settled pattern of sin.”
Now, two observations about this phrase “go on sinning deliberately” are really important.

First, the word deliberately translates the Greek hekousiōs. This word is used in 1 Peter 5:2 like this: “Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly [hekousiōs].” Willingly — here is the same word that we translate as deliberately in Hebrews 10:26.

Now, what this usage shows (and the reason I cite it) is that there are two different kinds of willing, aren’t there? One is eager and wholehearted, and the other is under compulsion.

In both cases, one could argue that the elders are in fact exercising their will to shepherd the flock of God. In the one case, it’s glad. It’s an act that engages the whole will. It’s happy and energized. In the other case, it’s begrudging, an act that evidently goes against significant parts of the will because they would rather be doing something else. They don’t really want to shepherd the flock of God, but for money or for fame or to avoid guilty feelings they gut it out and shepherd the flock of God.

Sins That Destroy
This is a correction to Josh’s assumption that all sinning is equally willing — or all human acts are equally willing — since all acts, including sin, are acts of the will. That’s true. They are acts of the will. We choose them.

This text, Hebrews 10:26, is saying something more than that the sin which destroys the soul is an act of the will. Of course, it is, but it’s more than that. All sins are acts of the will, and not all sins destroy. It’s a more intentional, eager, wholehearted act of the will. An act which shows there isn’t a real identity of spiritual newness inside, which acts as a constraint holding back the will, at least in part.

Patterns of Sin
Now here’s the second thing to notice in the phrase “go on sinning deliberately” [or “willingly” or “eagerly”].” It’s that phrase “go on sinning,” which is a good translation of the present tense of the Greek verb for sin.

In other words, it’s not a single act; it’s not a few acts; it’s not periodic acts. It’s rather a settled, persistent continuation in sin. What destroys the soul, what puts it beyond forgiveness in verse 26 is not sin per se, but an eager, deliberate, willing, persistent, settled pattern of sin.

“If we don’t hold fast to the end, then we never had come to share in Christ.”
We can see how serious this is by looking at what comes just before and what comes just after verse 26. Verse 26 begins with the word for, which shows what kind of sin is being referred to in the preceding verses — namely, the sin of forsaking the Christian fellowship and rejecting all brotherly exhortation. In other words, this person is walking away from Christ and his church.

Then if you look after verse 26, especially at verse 29, you see that the pattern of sin is so deep and repeated that it’s called “trampling underfoot the Son of God” and “profaning the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified,” and “outraging the Spirit of grace” (see Hebrews 10:29).

Right here is where it looks like we can lose our salvation because of the reference “by which he was sanctified.” By such a deliberate, continued, settled pattern of sin, you can profane the blood of the covenant by which you were sanctified. Which sounds like, “Oh, well, he was saved. But now he’s beyond forgiveness. So you can lose your salvation.”

There are two passages in Hebrews that keep me from going there.

Lost and Found
I have two passages that stop me from saying that his reference to some kind of sanctified condition for the person who is lost means that we can have the full experience of salvation in Christ and be lost or lose it. There are two passages, Hebrews 10:14 and Hebrews 3:14.

Here’s Hebrews 10:14 (see what you think): “For by a single offering” — that’s the offering of Christ — “[God] has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” In other words, there is a kind of being sanctified that absolutely guarantees perfection for all time. In other words, nobody is lost who is experiencing this kind of sanctification.

“There is a kind of sinning that is more deliberate, more eager, more persistent than the way a genuine believer sins.”
Here’s the second one, Hebrews 3:14: “For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.”

Note, it doesn’t say, “We will come to share in Christ if we hold fast to the end.” It says, “We have come to share in Christ if we hold fast to the end,” which means that if we don’t hold fast, like the person in Hebrews 10:26, then we never had come to share in Christ. That’s the clear teaching of Hebrews 3:14.

We didn’t lose our share in Christ. We never had it.

United with Christ
My conclusion is that the experience of sanctification referred to in the lost person of Hebrews 10:26 and 10:29 is a measure of God-influenced moral renovation in a person that has been absorbed by being part of the church, professing some kind of faith, being attracted by many things about the Christian faith and Christian people, but never really coming to believe in Christ in such a way as to be united to him — to have a share in him and his eternal life and salvation.

My answer to Josh is

1. No, I don’t think genuine believers in Christ lose their salvation.

2. I think there is a kind of sinning that is more deliberate, more eager, more persistent than the way a genuine believer sins — sins that are confessed and forgiven.
Piper.

Johann, you have done it again. Pasted some link.

If you want someone to reply to you, quote the statement you disagree with and explain why. If you want to use someone else's material, simply paste the link and state what quoted piece you are referring to.

Who is Josh? Do you want to have a chat about Bob and George as well?

 

[KingJ]

Is it? Matthew 5:48, "You therefore are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." And last time I checked Gen. 3 and Rom. 5, sin entered the WORLD, not heaven.

Jesus says the devil has been sinning since the beginning 1 John 3:8. When do you think his beginning was?

When Paul says we will judge angels in 1 Cor 6:3, which angels is he referring to? Those that He has already judged for the lake of fire? I think not. So, if those in heaven, what type of judgement if not for their sin?

 

[KingJ]

sin entered the WORLD, not heaven.

Just curious. Outside of your opinion. Where in scripture does it say there is no sin in heaven?

 

[KingJ]

When Paul was converted he stopped murdering Christians (Mortal sin) but he continued battling with lessor sins (Venial sins) Rom 15:16.

Edit, Rom 7:15 For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Just curious. Outside of your opinion. Where in scripture does it say there is no sin in heaven?

Where does it say there is?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Jesus says the devil has been sinning since the beginning 1 John 3:8. When do you think his beginning was?

That's referring to the fall of man in Gen. 3. Just to make it clear, Satan has NO authority to do anything unless it is given to him by God. He can cause wreak havoc on earth because he's the "prince of the air", but in heaven, all he can do is accusing the believers - according to God's Torah day and night, until he is finally cast out.

When Paul says we will judge angels in 1 Cor 6:3, which angels is he referring to? Those that He has already judged for the lake of fire? I think not. So, if those in heaven, what type of judgement if not for their sin?

You think wrong. Who said those angels are already judged? The white throne judgement is scheduled after the millennial kingdom. Right now they still have access to heaven and present themselves before God, according to Jobs 1:6.

 

[KingJ]

Where does it say there is?

That's what I asked. It doesn't.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

That's what I asked. It doesn't.

You're the one who insists that there's sin in heaven as "all angels sin", not me.

 

[KingJ]

That's referring to the fall of man in Gen. 3.

No it is not. Jesus says ''devil''.

Just to make it clear, Satan has NO authority to do anything unless it is given to him by God. He can cause wreak havoc on earth because he's the "prince of the air", but in heaven, all he can do is accusing the believers - according to God's Torah day and night, until he is finally cast out.

I partially agree. What scripture are you quoting here?

You think wrong. Who said those angels are already judged? The white throne judgement is scheduled after the millennial kingdom. Right now they still have access to heaven and present themselves before God, according to Jobs 1:6.

So, you believe we will judge the fallen angels?

If you read 1 Cor 6, you will see Paul is addressing the saved. Christians judging Christians. He is not speaking of us judging the unsaved. Why then would he say ''we will judge fallen angels'' in verse 3. It makes no sense. It should be painfully obvious he is referring to angels in heaven.

In addition. The white throne judgement is where God judges those for hell. Note how Rev 20 says the following '' 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

Nobody will stand before ''us''. We never knew them, nor their sins.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Humans go to heaven because they repent of their sin Psalm 51:17, get judged by God for the sincerity of their heart Jer 17:9-10 and are then given faith and a revelation of Jesus being Lord Rom 12:3, 1 Cor 12:3. We go to heaven, because we are washed clean of our sin by Jesus and are covered forever by His blood Heb 10:14. Not because we are able to ''muster up faith'' on par with faith in fairies and Santa Claus or because we attend the correct church.

Technically, we do NOT immediately go to heaven, we go to the grave awaiting for the first resurrection, and then reign with Christ in his millennial kingdom right here on EARTH. See Rev. 20:5. When Stephen was martyred, he saw Yeshua standing at the right hand of God, but did he acend and join them? No. He "fell asleep". Yeshua himself went to the grave for two days and rose on the third, and since no servant is greater than his master, what makes you think we get to skip the grave and go straight to heaven?

 

[KingJ]

Technically, we do NOT immediately go to heaven, we go to the grave awaiting for the first resurrection, and then reign with Christ in his millennial kingdom right here on EARTH. See Rev. 20:5. When Stephen was martyred, he saw Yeshua standing at the right hand of God, but did he acend and join them? No. He "fell asleep". Yeshua himself went to the grave for two days and rose on the third, and since no servant is greater than his master, what makes you think we get to skip the grave and go straight to heaven?

I don't agree, but that is a topic for another thread.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No it is not. Jesus says ''devil''.

"Yes it is. Serpent of the old, who is called the DEVIL and Satan", Rev. 12:9. He rebelled against God through Eve and then Adam, that's in Gen. 3.

I partially agree. Scripture?

Ephesians 2:2, Revelation 12:10, and again, Jobs 1.

So you believe we will judge the fallen angels. Not God?

If you read 1 Cor 6, you will see he is addressing the saved. Christians judging Christians. Why would he say ''we will judge fallen angels'' in verse 3. It makes no sense. It should be painfully obvious he is referring to angels in heaven.

In addition. The white throne judgement is where God judges those for hell. Note how Rev 20 says the following '' 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

Nobody will stand before ''us''. We never knew them, nor their sins.

Those fallen angels will be judged by Christ himself, He already passed judgements on the ANGELS of those five bad churches in the seven letters in Rev. 2-3. We get to judge angels because we're co-heirs reigning with Christ. What makes absolutely no sense is thinking that we get to judge the angels who are faithfully revealing God's plan and relaying God's message to God's people.

 

[KingJ]

"Yes it is. Serpent of the old, who is called the DEVIL and Satan", Rev. 12:9. He rebelled against God through Eve and then Adam, that's in Gen. 3.

Oh, you are saying the ''beginning'' is since the fall of man?

And you are saying He rebelled through Adam and Eve?

Disagree with both. 1. He sinned before Adam and Eve. That is why he was chosen to be the serpent in the garden, and 2. Jesus refers to the serpent specifically, when He says he has been sinning since the beginning, implying ''his / the serpents'' beginning.

Ephesians 2:2, Revelation 12:10, and again, Jobs 1.


Those fallen angels will be judged by Christ himself, He already passed judgements on the ANGELS of those five bad churches in the seven letters in Rev. 2-3. We get to judge angels because we're co-heirs reigning with Christ. What makes absolutely no sense is thinking that we get to judge the angels who are faithfully revealing God's plan and relaying God's message to God's people.

I see nothing in those scriptures you quoted that support your assertion. Maybe copy the scripture and underline what you believe is relevant.

As for Rev 2-3, please quote the exact scripture you are alluding to.

 

[KingJ]

You're the one who insists that there's sin in heaven as "all angels sin", not me.

Haha, I asked, where does it say there is not sin in heaven.

I have explained why I say angels sin. Please re-read my OP.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Haha, I asked, where does it say there is not sin in heaven.

I have explained why I say angels sin. Please re-read my OP.

And I asked, where does it say there IS sin in heaven?

 

[KingJ]

And I asked, where does it say there IS sin in heaven?

I repeat, please read the Op and you will know why I say there is.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Oh, you are saying the ''beginning'' is since the fall of man?

And you are saying He rebelled through Adam and Eve?

Disagree with both. 1. He sinned before Adam and Eve. That is why he was chosen to be the serpent in the garden, and 2. Jesus refers to the serpent specifically, when He says he has been sinning since the beginning, implying ''his / the serpents'' beginning.

Great, so "devil made me do it" is the actual reason for the eating of the Forbidden Fruit, not an excuse, and Adam and Eve deserved to be exonerated? Then why wasn't Satan cast out of heaven right then, but Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden? 1 John 3:8 is talking about God's plan of salvation at the beginning of this fall, it's the same message written by Paul in Rom. 5:18: "as THROUGH ONE MAN's offense - aka, through Adam, judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act, aka Yeshua crucified on the cross, the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life." I suggest you read the whole verse of 1 John 3:8 instead of just cherry picking half of it to build a weird narrative.

I see nothing in those scriptures you quoted that support your assertion. Maybe copy the scripture and underline what you believe is relevant.

As for Rev 2-3, please quote the exact scripture you are alluding to.

"To the ANGEL of Ephesus ... Pergamus ... Thyatira ... Sardis ... Laodicea write," it's all in there. Don't play dumb, you know which exact Scripture I'm alluding to. I see nothing in these scriptures that support your ridiculous point, that "all angels sin".

Even if they are, what does that have to do with you and I? Yeshua didn't die for any angels, He died for US, for you and I, for the sin of mankind. According to Eph. 1:21 and 6:12, there are these ranks of fallen angels - dominion, power, throne, principality, those are the angels to be judged; as for the rest, why do you care so much? As I said, this is just a distraction.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I repeat, please read the Op and you will know why I say there is.

And I repeat, there is no sin in heaven. "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool," Acts 7:49. Saying there is sin on God's throne is equivalent to accusing God of sinning. Also, there's no such terms called "mortal sin" and "venial sin" in the Scripture, Yeshua only said that there's forgivable sin of blaspheming against the Son and UNFORGIVABLE sin of blaspheming against the Spirit.